Poll: Rushing and you

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CanadianWolverine

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Catalyst6 said:
CanadianWolverine said:
Don't take this the wrong way, I am totally not a good player at RTS games competively either, my actions per second (or whatever the unit of measurement is) is pitiful. It hardly matters what my strategy is because the other guy is a bind king or prince or magistrate or ... I don't care, I just suck at whipping together a base in a few seconds and rolling out units to defend, rush, or gather. So you know what I realized and I get the impression from the tid bits I pulled out of your Original Post?

You probably would have more fun sticking to either single player RTS or alternatively: go play Turn Based Strategy single or multiplayer. Then you really will be playing "Exploding Chess", since RTS is only comparable to chess if both chess players are taking their turns at the exact same time trying to move pieces around the board quicker than the other guy - what are you willing to bet chess games like that end up with one of the players going "Screw this!" and rage quiting as he slaps the board and pieces off the table after you both basicly push crap across the squares in one big two handed shove of "pwnage"?

In real time and real life, its just as important to quick as it is to be smart, strong, durable, accurate, efficient and profitable but for the rest of us, turn based is probably where its at. Just sayin', the Quick and the Dead and stuff.
I feel as though I should be insulted. I'll just leave that facet alone.

And the Exploding Chess thing was a joke, it's nowhere near a perfect metaphor.

I think that I have a misplaced ideal of honor among theives in the Starcraft community. An idea that players shouldn't do cheap crap that works very rarely simply because it's cheap. Unfortunately, it's that exact thing, "misplaced". It's not the gentleman's game of intellect and cunning that I had expected. Such is life, I suppose.
Dang it man, I was serious, it was not meant as insulting, check out my first sentence! I suck at the rush in RTS games too, so I get a kick out of playing something like X-Com more than say Command & Conquer, there is no harm in admitting that to oneself. So, please, don't feel insulted, RTS games on the multiplayer scene isn't everyone's cup o'tea, I know it isn't mine - when it came to Starcraft, I usually ended up playing the custom maps like that bike racing one or the ones that would be called RPG or whatever to get some enjoyment out of it where I didn't get owned nearly all the time. Whenever I tried the classic multiplayer 1v1, 2v2, or whatever maps, I would get smacked down by what I thought may have been a rush at 1-2 minutes but after watching a few competitive SC vids on youtube, I realized I was just fracking slow selecting the terran base or whatever. *shrug*
 

Kavonde

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Feb 8, 2010
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Rushing removes all the fun from the game, in my opinion. Even if I'm the one doing the rushing. What's the point? You're not exploring tech trees or playing a game of speed chess against a canny human opponent, you're just playing out a formula designed to make you win faster. "Build X workers, build X barracks, build X soldiers, win."

Seems like a waste of a perfectly good RTS to me.
 

snow

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Kavonde said:
Rushing removes all the fun from the game, in my opinion. Even if I'm the one doing the rushing. What's the point? You're not exploring tech trees or playing a game of speed chess against a canny human opponent, you're just playing out a formula designed to make you win faster. "Build X workers, build X barracks, build X soldiers, win."

Seems like a waste of a perfectly good RTS to me.
Not really, because after a while (if you're the one rushing) you'll start facing people that will scout you and figure out that you're doing these things and will have a perfect counter by the time you get there. That's when things start to get interesting.

This is why I don't understand why the OP is complaining so much. Instead of defending himself by shrugging off anyone who tells him there's ways to counter it, he should be asking questions, because when you're against some one that only knows how to do an early rush, you will beat them easily as long as you're prepared for it.

These people won't make it into the higher leagues, because those strategies won't work against those players. So to learn how to handle them properly will excel you way beyond the point to where they can't reach you, and if they do some how reach you? You know how to defend yourself, meaning there's no room to complain because it's no longer a problem.

Not once in the OP did I hear any requests for help, in fact, all I heard was complaining. Later in other posts, he tries to put himself up on a pedestal by saying that SC2 players are thieves and he is the only one with honor...

I don't believe that self justification is necessary when you are still losing and complaining instead of asking questions. In fact, I feel it's the same as me being called a hacker in an FPS game for continuously killing some one who just can't seem to figure out the proper means of killing me.

If that FPS player were to ask questions, I would have kindly gave him some tips and tricks, but to call some one a hacker, you're pretty much putting yourself up on a pedestal because you'd rather have that personal justification in thinking that you're better than everyone else rather than taking the time to admit defeat and ask questions TO become better than everyone else...

A new player that asks questions is already 4 steps ahead of everyone else because they are willing to take the time to get better. Those that shrug others off and attempt to find other ways to put themselves up there are 5 steps behind.

Sure, I understand that the OP made this thread to blow off some steam, but to do so, then insult the SC2 community and shrug off anyone that tells him that he is wrong, isn't going to see much sympathy from people, because then you're just acting childish.
 

Malkavian

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Snowfox has the right of it. If you are continually loosing to something, for gds sake, ask for help. I, as stated previously, sucked at MP in SCII when I was playing the beta. Fortunately, one of my best friends is quite good at it, and he took the time in teaching me how to actually play the game. And we're not talking instructions in set build orders and just copying set strategies, but a lot of people new to the game gets the basics all wrong. I know I did, and some of the people I know that has just picked up the game, do to. It's not even that hard to learn the few basics that are "correct". And your games will be instantly better for it. I have, after getting the proper platform from which to teach myself, been able to instruct some of the other people I know. It takes two games... One to beat them into a pulp, then post-game, look at their build order, tell them what they do wrong. Usually it's not getting enough workers and building certain buildings way too early, essentially wasting ressources on something you can't even use. The second game they are suddenly much better, and harder to beat. Really, there is such a huge difference if you just have a proper start, and once you learn how to spend that first minute of the game, you are in a much better position to repel rushes. And when you do that, then you can start exploring the game and it's staggeringly intricate strategies and nuances.

So, to OP or anyone else having a hard time with rushes and the like - get someone willing to teach you a thing or two to practice with you in 3-5 custom matches. It'll take you 30 mins or so, and you will be instantly better. And you can now enjoy what is actually a brilliant game. Heck, in the time from the beta started, to the game came out, I advanced from Bronze to Gold League. And I haven't even been playing that much. Knowing the basics is a huge advantage.
 

JUMBO PALACE

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You're a terran player... Wall+Marines and MAYBE a bunker defeats rush. Then you attack and win.

My standard opening is a 2 depot and barracks wall which will produce marines. (usually about 5 or 6) Refinery while Rax is going up so build factory as soon as you have 100 gas. Build a couple hellions and you'll be all set to retaliate after that failed zergling or zealot rush.
 

ethaninja

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I prefer games that go on for as long as possible. So rushing... not excactly my style.
 

Trivun

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It's the cheapest, most n00bish tactic ever, and the only people who ever use rushing as a tactic in an RTS are those who have absolutely zero skill at the game whatsoever. Personally, I enjoy the long, drawn out hour-long or two-hour-long battles against people with equal or superior skill to me. It means I have a fun game where the opponent and I are evenly matched and you have to actually think and use skill and strategy (as the genre wants you to, it's in the name, dumbasses) to win.

So yeah, rushing is bad. Anyone rushes me, I usually beat them anyway because I prepare for it just in case. Then I annihilate them with a proper, well built army and proper tactics, as the game is supposed to be played. Then I insult the player and their mothers, and never play with them again. Their loss, right? It's one of the reasons I love the Total War series so much too, you have the armies on the ground at the same time and you're forced to use proper tactics, rushing in a game like that just means you get wiped out instantly... :D
 

Catalyst6

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Apr 21, 2010
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snowfox said:
Again, it's talk like this that makes it so no one will help you. It is indeed a gentleman's game of intellect and cunning. It seems by what you said in previous posts that others are out-smarting you with tactics that are easy to defend yourself against. If it's a straight up fight you want, prepare yourself accordingly so you're able to force that player into that fair fight.

I've said this all before, but you fail to listen. So in doing so, youail to receive any help with your problems. Calling the entirety of the SC2 community thieves just because they do things that you don't know how to protect yourself against, isn't going to help you solve the issue at all.

You may call us thieves, but in return I hope you accept that I should be allowed to call you ignorant. I'd be more than willing to help, but you need to be willing to stop with the complaints and most importantly, stop with the insults, and start listening.
Yeah, the whole "thieves" thing was just another joke/turn of phrase. I'm not saying that you're all criminals. It's like... Honor Among Theives as in "Yes, you're in it for yourself but that doesn't mean that you have to be a jerk about it". It's not an insult.

OT: Not looking for strategic help. Just making an observation, nothing more, nothing less.
 

Daedalus1942

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Jun 26, 2009
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Okay... this was confusing for me.
Rushing, the definitin to me would apply to games like Diablo II, when some high level races you through the game so you can go to nightmare or hell faster and level up quicker, rather than going through the entire game.
 

Catalyst6

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Daedalus1942 said:
Okay... this was confusing for me.
Rushing, the definitin to me would apply to games like Diablo II, when some high level races you through the game so you can go to nightmare or hell faster and level up quicker, rather than going through the entire game.
Yeaaaahhhh not everyone RTSes, which is why I threw that explanatory paragraph in there...

I've never heard it in that context, though (never really played Diablo, actually, so not surprising). Sounds like a "run" from the MMO lexicon, though.
 

snow

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Catalyst6 said:
snowfox said:
Again, it's talk like this that makes it so no one will help you. It is indeed a gentleman's game of intellect and cunning. It seems by what you said in previous posts that others are out-smarting you with tactics that are easy to defend yourself against. If it's a straight up fight you want, prepare yourself accordingly so you're able to force that player into that fair fight.

I've said this all before, but you fail to listen. So in doing so, youail to receive any help with your problems. Calling the entirety of the SC2 community thieves just because they do things that you don't know how to protect yourself against, isn't going to help you solve the issue at all.

You may call us thieves, but in return I hope you accept that I should be allowed to call you ignorant. I'd be more than willing to help, but you need to be willing to stop with the complaints and most importantly, stop with the insults, and start listening.
Yeah, the whole "thieves" thing was just another joke/turn of phrase. I'm not saying that you're all criminals. It's like... Honor Among Theives as in "Yes, you're in it for yourself but that doesn't mean that you have to be a jerk about it". It's not an insult.
Ok, but seriously would you like some help? I took a friend who only got the game a few days ago and turned him into a really good player by showing him a couple of basic build orders and little tips to improve his gameplay.

The last time we played, we played 7 rounds and we won 5 out of the 7, and in no way did I have to help carry him to the finish line.

What is your preferred race? What sort of match up do you usually do? 1v1? 2v2? etc? And if you're able too, could you perhaps explain the situation that got you ticked off in the first place, if any?

If not then any sort of scenario that you're having trouble in will do. Having a player rush you can indeed be a pain in the ass if you don't know what to do about it, or if you were just caught unprepared for it.

Also, to get a basic understanding of your skill level, what league are you in? No, I'm not here to make fun of you if it turns out that you're in the Bronze League. It will give me a clue as to what I can share with you that will help you play better.

Hopefully after a few responses, and a few test runs on your part, you will start to look back to the days of being rushed and laugh a hearty laugh. I can't help but chuckle when a player rushes me anymore.
 

Necrofudge

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Well with Starcraft, I think it's perfectly fine. Just because you can't repel it in time doesn't mean it's unfair. It means that you need more practice.
If you play Starcraft, you could consider hosting one of those "20 minute no rush" games where you take time to build up a force before doing anything. But what do I know? I only play Use Map Settings maps on Starcraft since all the normal games are now in Korean.
 

Catalyst6

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Apr 21, 2010
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snowfox said:
Thanks for the offer, but I'm really not looking for any game help. This was meant to be a commentary on the users, not on the game itself. The discussion has simply... evolved.
 

Malkavian

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Trivun said:
It's the cheapest, most n00bish tactic ever, and the only people who ever use rushing as a tactic in an RTS are those who have absolutely zero skill at the game whatsoever. Personally, I enjoy the long, drawn out hour-long or two-hour-long battles against people with equal or superior skill to me. It means I have a fun game where the opponent and I are evenly matched and you have to actually think and use skill and strategy (as the genre wants you to, it's in the name, dumbasses) to win.

So yeah, rushing is bad. Anyone rushes me, I usually beat them anyway because I prepare for it just in case. Then I annihilate them with a proper, well built army and proper tactics, as the game is supposed to be played. Then I insult the player and their mothers, and never play with them again. Their loss, right? It's one of the reasons I love the Total War series so much too, you have the armies on the ground at the same time and you're forced to use proper tactics, rushing in a game like that just means you get wiped out instantly... :D
Rushing isn't un-tactical. But we have to notice that Total War and Starcraft are very different games, to the point where merely describing them by genre, that is as RTS'es, will fail to describe them at all. In Starcraft, tactics and strategy is a different thing from what they are in Total War. Some will like one way, others will like it the other. Rushing is not a n00b strategy however - it sounds more like you don't understand the way Starcraft works. Which is perfectly fine, since I have never played Total War, and would probably be completely flabbergasted by that, and then beaten into a pulp when it turns out I suck at it.

Rushing is not n00b-ish. It may look that way to the outsider, oh, and sure, there ARE a lot of n00bs that put all their ressources and faith in a rush. Then, yes, it's a n00b-ish strategy, since it's incredibly bad, strategigally, to just copy off what a guide tells you to do and leave yourself with no backup.

But you have to rush a little. Not in the sense that you should hope to crush your opponent as quickly and cheesy as possible, but because in RTS'es like Starcraft, controlling an army is not all there is. Just as strategic and important is ressource gathering, and being able to adapt on the fly. Therefore, the rush, when not done as an all eggs in one basket thing, serves a different purpose - it is an early guerillia attack that can set your opponent back economically, and let's you see what he is currently building. When you don't do the super cheesy rushes, you will most likely not crush your opponent. You will rush a bit later, which means you will most certainly loose the troops you attack with, because of the later attack time, plus the time it takes to reach your opponents base gives him more time before the attack, effectively giving him the advantage in army strenght for that first early clash.
But what you CAN do, is use it as a tool to ignore his army and hunt his workers. Will you be slaughtered? Yes. But you will have struck a strategic blow against him, and you will have information on what he is doing. This leads to further strategic actions - your army building. A skilled player doesn't just rush. A skilled player sacrifices some troops in order to harrass his opponentand gather intel. See the difference? It's not so much blitzkrieg, as it is actual tactics that you would see in real life. Bar the sacrifice part of course. When you know what your opponent is doing, you can start building counters for the real clashes. Instead of building a huge army and hope that it matches his, you will actually take care in teching in the direction that is best suited to take on what your opponent is doing. You will have to think fast, build correctly, and constantly adapt as the situation changes. Starcraft is very big on that every unit is effective against something, but fares poorly against other stuff. That early rush is the strategic move that secures you the upper hand for later in the game.

Of course, I speak from the perspective of one that enjoys Starcraft, so my argument and conclusion is, to say the least, pretty jaded. But I have to say, no, it's no n00btastic, it's a platform from which real strategic thinking can develope.

Yes, there are those that use the infamous 6pools or cannon rushes, and yes, they are being cheesy and n00b-ish. But thing is, you don't find that among the players that have gotten the grasp of the game. They are not viable tactics, once we are done learning how the game works, so they shouldn't really detract from the game or the genre, since they are not used beyond the lowest league.
 

thedeathscythe

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It's just another tactic to me, as boring as that answer sounds. I can be good at it in certain games, but I've rushed people hard and if it's repelled, I know I lose. I've also repelled rushes the same way and won, just by simply focus a bit on base building and a bit on early defense. If I don't need that early defence for defence in say 5 minutes (if that's a short time span for the given RTS), I'll send half of that force to scout for him. I know I won't do any damage, but this is the planning phase, and I should be seeing how I play. That wins me maybe half my games and I don't really consider myself that good.
 

Malkavian

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Catalyst6 said:
snowfox said:
Thanks for the offer, but I'm really not looking for any game help. This was meant to be a commentary on the users, not on the game itself. The discussion has simply... evolved.
But that's the problem - the discussion is based on observations made in, I presume, the lower leagues. The lower leagues don't represent the Starcraft playerbase as a whole, and it certainly doesn't represent the way the game is constructed.

I am with you, damn I hated when it happened to me in the beginning. Then I got better. Now I never see it. It's like Tekken, when playing against Eddy. Damn buttonmashing is a ***** to play against. Where's the fun in playing the game when you can't do anything than the easy solution that somehow works? But then you get better, and suddenly, those buttonmashers are a breeze.
 

AhumbleKnight

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I hate the mass rush strategy. I think it is cheap and lacks any kind of long term thinking. It like playing Russian Roulette.

There is however, a vast difference between a mass rush, and harassing tactics. Sending a small and powerful or weak and fast force to keep them busy with heaps of micro management while you tech up is my DoW tactic of choice. Small forces, selective tech, good resource management, and a lot of micro management :D Works well and makes for a fun, challenging game for all.
 

snow

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Catalyst6 said:
snowfox said:
Thanks for the offer, but I'm really not looking for any game help. This was meant to be a commentary on the users, not on the game itself. The discussion has simply... evolved.
Very well then, but in all seriousness, if someone is doing something that's causing you to create large threads containing distaste over something that a great portion of the community would easily tell you there's a way to keep it from happening, you're best bet is to ask for some help.

Rushing in Starcraft and Starcraft 2 has become accepted, simply because the game offers plenty of methods in return to keep it from happening to you. Not all of them are obvious to everyone that plays the game however, which is why I'm more than happy to share what I know with anyone who needs help.

Rushing in the bronze league can indeed be a noob tactic used to get a quick win off of an unsuspecting person, but as stated in a different post, these players get mauled once they start moving up in the food chain simply because the higher you go in the ranking, the more your opponents will know about the game and counter you.

So in a way, the universe balances out, that cheesy win against you will most likely = unlimited losses for that player once he starts facing those of higher ranking.

In high level play, rushing serves its purpose as well, because at this point it's not an all in situation, because the rusher will know that it will not be a quick win. The person defending will see it coming, defend against it, and by this point the rusher better have a backup plan to make use of the benefit of any damage he has done. (if any.)

There will be those that do proxy builds, like the ones that sneak an scv into your base to build a barracks and build an army within your own base, but that's exactly why they created challenges that teach you how to counter this.

The only thing that I would really consider cheap is if there's an imbalance in the game that players could abuse to get easy wins. An early game rush or some form of proxy build isn't cheap because there are many ways to counter these strategies. If rushing in the game was something that couldn't be countered, I'd probably join you in saying angry things about said players, but since there are counters. I can't help but give you weird looks. :p
 

Mechsoap

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i rarely focus on attacking in a rts. im more building something that can withold 500 armies, else when all that is done i have alot of resources to put in soldiers for a rush
 

Yureina

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May 6, 2010
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Rushing is part of the reason I got sick of RTS games in a competitive setting. I don't like the idea of playing a game where I play according to a very specific and timed method for every match. I did it in Age of Empires II and Warcraft III, but after that I only wanted to enjoy the game. From that point on, I turned to custom maps, and eventually to different genres of games.