Poll: Skyrim: The Armour complaint.

[Jfswift]

I have to admit I do like to play around with how I look in RPGS. It's part of the game.. of the feeling of immersion, that this is your character, that *you* are in this scary, yet fantastic world of demons and monsters. And your armor is pink.. because you can paint it pink. To be serious for a moment though, I really did like the setup in say.. Soul Caliber for the custom character creation part. That was fun.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

-snip-
I just don't understand...:<

You just don't have the right mindset. You're looking at it from the perspective of someone who plays the game as it is, just for fun, without really thinking about all the options that could be explored or the world in which it takes place or even the possibilities mods offer. You may even be thinking of it from a munchkin's point of view, not even caring about story elements but just the next level up. Heck, you might even be a console player. I'd bet 90-100% of the people complaining are PC players upset at the loss of slots because it restricts a modder's options.

To see how much PC players (like myself!) love these things, one need only look at the massive popularity of Tailor Maid for Fallout 3 and New Vegas. While it couldn't actually add slots, it did make use of left-over slots from Oblivion to tremendously expand customization possibilities.

There are also a lot of people who really don't care about the look the devs are trying to get, and want to mix and match denim shorts and a bikini top or a vest with a pleated schoolgirl skirt.

Then there's the modders who may want to release "just bottom" and "just top" pieces and not do an entire set of clothing...

Yeah, there's plenty of reason to be annoyed.

Actually I'm a PC gamer (I have played on all types of systems since 1985) who is getting a new rig (probably especially for Skyrim but don't tell anyone lol.)

Playing through Oblivion my armour was never a big issue. Most of the time I just wore the Dark Brotherhood stuff. I think I changed my armour drastically about 3 times in the entire game.

I just don't thinking this change effects actual game play enough to be scarmongering about streamlining and suchlike.

The modding thing I can kind of understand but I think they will figure out a way around it.

(cringes at schoolgirl outfit description)

I don't really apprieciate that you assume I am superficial about my gaming just becuase I can't see how a minor cosmetic issue will ruin the game.

The Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale series are some of my favourite games. I played Morrowind when it was released.

I hate assumption...

 

[Stall]

Because it's a simple enough assumption to make. RPG stands for Role Playing Game. In Skyrim, you will be able to play a role to a far greater degree than in previous Elder Scrolls games, judging from all the given information. You implied that Skyrim would be less of an RPG due to the lack of armour slots, implying that your view of an RPG is pretty much a DnD clone. As in skills/data/armour slots make a game an RPG. Which is not the case.

Ability to role-play makes an RPG an RPG. This is why Mass Effect 2, Dragon Age 2, and Fable can all be classed as RPGs. My reasoning for the Morrowind statement was that you exhibited your preference for Morrowind's armour slots, so I decided to tell you that by the standards that I gleaned from my reasoning in the previous paragraph, Morrowind was not an RPG either. It made the classic levelling system horrible and designed to appeal to casual players who didn't want to bother to even design their characters.

Oh wait, the general term for that is 'revolutionising'.

Believe me, I'm saddened by the loss of armour slots. But it DOES NOT make Skyrim any less of an RPG. That's just stupid.

Closest I've ever come to playing DnD was BG2 and NWN2. I can't say a game HAS to be a DnD clone to be an RPG, but stat building is nonetheless an imperative part of the genre. And I've only played Fable 1 out of those. I don't care for MODERN (edit) Bioware.

Anyways, so when I am saying insults towards the enemies I'm killing in God of War in low, gruffy Kratos-esque voice, then does that make God of War an RPG? As paradoxical as this sounds, just because you CAN rolelay doesn't mean the game is an RPG. The interactivity of video games makes it fairly easy to roleplay in virtually any game if you have enough of an imagination. RPG is a genre with certain characteristics often ascertained to it. One of which happens to be a heavy dependence on stats and customization. Roleplaying is also a characteristic, but you can't have one without the other. So no, the ability to roleplay isn't the sole qualifier of an RPG, at least in my eyes.

 

[Terminal Blue]

It has been awhile since I played(never played Morrowind so your safe at least from me) but I thought there were enemies that could dispell which would make it so you have to recast.

There are enemies who theoretically can dispel. There may even be a mod which makes them do so. It will never happen in vanilla though.

And the main issue is permanent enchantments, which can't be dispelled. A full suit of 'shielded' clothing is better than the best suit of armour in the game, and because it's so light I can also carry around my 'resist magicka' suit of clothing for when I fight mages, and my 'chameleon' suit of clothing for when I want to stealth and still be a fraction of the weight of a single suit of armour.

Dispels are also levelled. Powerful effects require powerful dispels, and since getting those powerful effects is laughably easy I seriously doubt dispelling would ever cause you any inconvenience even the AI knew how to do it.

Forget about wearing robes though, or a nice suit/dress. No, those would take up precious enchantment slots on your hands and feet. Bethesda pretty much designed the game so that the optimal strategy is to walk around looking like a tramp wearing the handcuffs you broke out of jail with because they're the only non-armour wrist item. Go hero go!

 

[Slowpool]

HAH. This made me laugh a little.

I am incredibly into RPGs; it's just that I understand that RPGs are about ROLE PLAYING, and not STATISTICAL CUSTOMIZATION. If this removal of ONE armor slot is really important to you, then you do not love RPGs, you love mathematics. It's about putting you into the shoes of your character; when your character is aware of the numerical attack value of their sword or the chameleon value of their pants, it's a disconnect. I'm not saying that you should totally ignore stats, but its secondary to enjoying the experience of chasing down a pickpocket in a crowded market and braining him with your orcish hammer of braining.

TL;DR? Roleplaying is more important in an RPG than stats. It's right there in the title.

Well, I am going to be applying to Masters/PhD programs in Statistics this fall, so I suppose that accusation isn't baseless heh.

Anyways, I've always seen the stats part just as being synonymous with the roleplaying part. Being able to fine tune my character's stats and have more and more control over their armor and such lets me roleplay better. If I don't have enough control, then it ends up feeling like I am just controlling the character, instead of actually roleplaying. Anything that gets taken away just gives me less and less control, and that statistical control is imperative to my roleplaying.

I suppose it ends up being two different ways to view the same thing perhaps. Maybe I'm wrong and you're totally right. Who knows? All I can be sure about is that I think the deep customization (including the statistical part) is really needed to roleplay.

I can appreciate that. I don't see it taking part in my personal calculations, but I'm told that I'm not the center of the universe. Here's hoping that it's enough for everyone to love.

 

[Hal10k]

Yeah, I know that feeling. It's kind of hard to remember anything about vanilla Oblivion since modding is so heavily ingrained in that game.

And I am not sure how to feel about the stats and such in Skyrim. I personally really enjoy having to sit down and plan out of my character. It adds a lot of depth for me, and really makes me think about how to progress and move forward. The butchery of all the stats sort of hurt, but there may be hope for perks (though that seems much more action game than RPG to me). I guess we'll see, but at this rate, I am really worried about how Skyrim is shaping up. If the whole stripping down and simplifying continues, then I might have to put it on my "wait until the GOTY edition is 5 dollars on Steam" list.

I actually have the opposite feeling. I like to start the game with a vague notion of who my character is, and let the actions I actually take in the game define me from there. It makes me feel more like my character is actually progressing, developing. If I say to myself "I am going to play an axe-wielder who summons imps to help him", and I start playing as an axe-wielder who summons imps to help him, and I end the game as a slightly more powerful axe-wielder who uses imps to help him, then what was the point of playing in the first place?

 

[Rems]

I personally am completely fine with it. I always wear cohesive armour sets rather than min maxing different pieces for stats. I hate the rageddy look you see in mmo's like wow. I guess i just value the whole look more than eeking out every last stat advantage. The face that there are going to be more sets of armour and more variations more than makes up for it for me.

 

[Argonian alchemist]

My character is a female Khajiit who wears no clothes apart from her torn bra and a loincloth.

She only uses her bow with poisons and toxins she picks up in the forests and other areas to kill animals for food. She doesn't really care for trivial human interaction and will normally just shoot down anyone she see's out in the wild from the trees.

So uh... since I try to avoid towns and people... and I don't wear armour... I don't really care, no.

 

[Ziggy the wolf]

i cant wait for the game to come out, oh man i lo- wait what i cant have armor appear on the ground and ti has to be fitted for the character! BLASHPEMY...oh wait...i don't care

 

[omicron1]

Well, that settles it, then. No matter what else they've done, we can be certain that Skyrim is not pants. (EG British Slang)

 

[EHKOS]

It...actually bugs me. I loved mixing and matching armour for the highest defense possible or making myself look awesome. I want my nine pieces back.

 

[Legendairy314]

HAH. This made me laugh a little.

I am incredibly into RPGs; it's just that I understand that RPGs are about ROLE PLAYING, and not STATISTICAL CUSTOMIZATION. If this removal of ONE armor slot is really important to you, then you do not love RPGs, you love mathematics. It's about putting you into the shoes of your character; when your character is aware of the numerical attack value of their sword or the chameleon value of their pants, it's a disconnect. I'm not saying that you should totally ignore stats, but its secondary to enjoying the experience of chasing down a pickpocket in a crowded market and braining him with your orcish hammer of braining.

TL;DR? Roleplaying is more important in an RPG than stats. It's right there in the title.

Well, I am going to be applying to Masters/PhD programs in Statistics this fall, so I suppose that accusation isn't baseless heh.

Anyways, I've always seen the stats part just as being synonymous with the roleplaying part. Being able to fine tune my character's stats and have more and more control over their armor and such lets me roleplay better. If I don't have enough control, then it ends up feeling like I am just controlling the character, instead of actually roleplaying. Anything that gets taken away just gives me less and less control, and that statistical control is imperative to my roleplaying.

I suppose it ends up being two different ways to view the same thing perhaps. Maybe I'm wrong and you're totally right. Who knows? All I can be sure about is that I think the deep customization (including the statistical part) is really needed to roleplay.

I find that kind of interesting. Do all RPG's have to be stat based in some way that the player can see or is it possible to use visuals without telling the player: You do x damage out of y hit points. It can be pretty obvious if an item is better simply by value and the way it looks. If I remember correctly Oblivion was fairly simple as far as statistics and didn't go too far in depth into the damage you were doing other than with a health bar that enemies had. Statistical tuning can be important but I don't think it's essential. Engrossing the player in the world with their actions, decisions, and interactions is far more important in my eyes.

 

[King Toasty]

It'll be modded in, within two days of release. So I'm not worr- oh god, I play PS3.

Still not worried, those modders are clever and determined.

 

[Jimbo1212]

Well something has to be cut back if the game is to be released on the rather dated consoles. It is a shame as chest + greaves armour sets come way after number of foes, but yet again, PC games are getting a bum deal due to the consoles.

 

[Arkyance]

It's all about removal of options, like when spears were removed from Oblivion. I think that the trade-off is reasonable, but I don't really think it should be necessary - if the tech can't handle that, then the tech isn't good enough for a TES game.

Also remember that there were 9 armour pieces in Morrowind, compared to 5 in Skyrim. It's not exactly a small difference.

Spears... And skills... And Pauldrons... And bracers... And Medium Armor... And the Colovian Fur Helm...

Now from Oblivion to Skyrim:

More skills... And Attributes... And Guirasses...

Bethesda hates us.

 

[evilneko]

Playing through Oblivion my armour was never a big issue. Most of the time I just wore the Dark Brotherhood stuff. I think I changed my armour drastically about 3 times in the entire game.

Well, there's your problem. /JamieHyneman

Or rather, where you differ from... pretty much everyone who dislikes the change.

There are (quite obviously) a lot players to whom this matters a great deal. When I was actually playing Oblivion, I changed my armor constantly, just for looks. In Fallout 3 I changed it quite often too. Not so much in New Vegas, but mainly because I've finally found a favorite look and story-wise, my character no longer has a lot of her old stuff.

Now I don't think it "ruins" the game--hell I vastly prefer Fallout 3/NV to Oblivion despite the lesser number of slots--but it just seems like a step backward. Rather than combine the two slots into one, they could've just had the armors occupy both slots. Or maybe they couldn't. It's possible to do that with Gamebryo, though, but Skyrim of course isn't going to run on that dated and somewhat crappy engine.

 

[Handbag1992]

I have mixed feelings, having greaves as a separate piece of armour is just something I've grown accustomed to and I enjoy the customisation it gives me.
Conversely, I didn't start wearing glass armour in Oblivion until I had the entire set, because mis-matched armour looks silly. So this will definitely simplify my obsessive compulsion to look fabulous.

Either way it doesn't really matter. I'm getting the game for PC and using all my sick-days consecutively to play it.

 

[Phlakes]

Nope. Now I don't have to look ridiculous with my fluffy green pants of stealth and my bulky steel armor and a red hood.

And if it really bothers you that much, wait a week after release and there'll be a mod to fix it.

 

[cthulhumythos]

i'm not complaining because it gets rid of custom-ability, i just prefer the older way is all. it's just like, it gets rid of the coolness y'know?

like in morrowind for example, which was more fulfilling: tracking down all the daedric armor piece by piece throughout your travels and explorations; or killing divath fyr and getting it all at once?

Nope. Now I don't have to look ridiculous with my fluffy green pants of stealth and my bulky steel armor and a red hood.

And if it really bothers you that much, wait a week after release and there'll be a mod to fix it.

i'm getting console.

 

[Signa]

What does this have to do with pants?

What do you mean? Are you quoting me just for a chance to use that bad joke? It's pretty clear what my comment has to do with this thread.

Its less customization. Oblivion decreased the armor slots from 11 to 6 (I think it was 11), and now it is down to 5. Skills and stats are being constantly mutilated and stripped. There's a huge difference "action game with RPG elements" and "action RPG"... Bethesda is intent on pushing that difference as far as they can. I sincerely doubt they give a shit about making their game an RPG anymore. They just want to make a shallow and pointless action game under the pretense of an RPG to sell to the masses. Fucking sell-outs.

Morrowind was not an RPG either, at least not by your standards.

I'm sorry.

Edit: But I'm on your side as far as lack of customisation goes, though.

I don't see how you can construe his comment to say that Morrowind was or wasn't a RPG. Really though, Morrowind was totally a RPG. Every thing you did, like in most classic RPGs, had its success rate determined by a dice roll modified by your character's stats. Nothing about Oblivion or what we know about Skyrim is going to be like that. It's not a RPG anymore, it's an action hack-'n-slash game with RPG elements.

That's at least what I took away from his comment