Flawed logic is flawed.......seriously.BENZOOKA said:
We ***** when things don't change. We also ***** when things change and are worse for it.
I'd say that's a fair reason to *****.
Poll: Skyrim: The Armour complaint.
- Thread starter Moonlight Butterfly
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We ***** when things don't change. We also ***** when things change and are worse for it.
I'd say that's a fair reason to *****.
That's great. I hated how all the heavy armor (and even the light armor to some extent) made all the male characters look morbidly obese. Bethesda, I approve of your changes.xXxJessicaxXx said:
personally i think its ok,and as we've seen in the preview,that guy has no cuirass,so yeah im sure it will turn out fine,just like when oblivion decided to simplify the mess that was morrowind.in morrowind,you had your boots,your greaves,your cuirass,your pauldrons,your gauntlets,your helmet,your shield,it was crazy.oblivion combined the pauldrons along with the cuirass and WAS THAT BAD?Can anyone say that was a bad choice?no?Good,then STFU.also,the person who said that morrowind had 9 pieces of armor was bullshitting.
I don't see a major problem with the choice made here. Sounds like it will improve aspects of the world they want to create. But to each his own, and hopefully someone will make a mod for the pc version to end this whole argument. Otherwise I would ask if this is such a big deal to not make a person buy the game? I doubt it.....
A lot of people never used a shield. I didn't usually, even though you could equip one anyway and then still use a two handed weapon, bow, staff or crossbow (anyone remember crossbows? Another thing that's disappeared!)CRRPGMykael said:
So we have
Helm
Cuirass
Greaves
L Boot
R Boot
L Pauldron
R Pauldron
L Gauntlet
R Gauntlet
That's 9 if I'm not mistaken. Shields aren't generally considered a fashion accessory.
Me, I don't like what's happening, but it won't stop me buying it. But I'm getting it on PC, so I can fix Bethesdas fuck-ups which, from Oblivion onwards, include -
No candles and lamps
No levitate
No jump spell
copy/pasted artifacts from Morrowind with no good explanation as to why they're there
The removal of the option to wear clothes under and robes over your armour
Scaled levelling
Less diversity/areas to explore
Crap inventory system
Crap spell system
Copy/pasted dungeons
I could go on all bloody day about the changes Bethesda have made and the things they've done that have made things worse. Not drastically worse as individual elements, but when you add them all together, things are not good.
You can tell people like me to shut the fuck up as much as you like. Just don't come crying to us when you shrug your shoulders and say "don't care" once too often......then you suddenly realise how simple and retarded you've allowed things to become, simply by 'not caring'.
There's a tale about slowly heating up a pot of water containing a frog that fits well here.....look it up!
im not saying oblivion is perfect.sure it had its problems,but it was still(imo) better than morrowind,or else it wouldnt have received the GOTY award.the option to have different boots/gauntlets for each leg was just retarded,and i wouldnt even count those as separate armor pieces.thats why they were removed,because it was a mess and looked like somebody woke up late for work and put on different pairs of socksPrivate Custard said:
There's a difference between change for the better and change for the worst, and I'm afraid I see this as a change for the worst.BENZOOKA said:
I don't see how it limits the number of people. Morrowind and Oblivion had tons of people who could be on-screen without the games getting laggy. And this is older tech we're talking about here.
I.E. It sounds more like an excuse to simplify the game rather than an actual developement, and I'm tired of the industry throwing up excuses instead of just flat out saying "we had budget/time restraints."
If this was some random RPG getting streamlined, it wouldn't be an issue, but...
It is an issue because TES is all about customization, and environment. It doesn't matter that there might be more armor sets per say, but to the average fan of Elder Scrolls games, this basically says we can't wear those clothes under the armor, we can't wear an elven helmet with a daedric torso piece and iron grieves, we can't have our own unique pieces because everythings mashed into one piece.
Then there's the stat issues. With this in mind I can't decide if I want water walking on my boots, and shield on my helmet, possibly chameleon on my grieves, because I'm extremely limited. I realize the abuse that could be found in messing with the armor sets and such, and I realize not everyone cares abotu stats, but the three biggest defining features of an RPG are typically Stories, environment, and stats. Take away one of these three, or limit it, and you piss off a lot of people by turning it into an action game with story elements, or a beautiful world with no story, etc.
Point being: If people want simplicity, the option should be available, but the purpouse of RPGs and their mechanics is to be complex at the same time so that both audiences can enjoy it. That's what I liked about the previous games is because you could have fun customizing and messing with different options, or you could go ahead and just suit up in iron/leather and have the same amount of fun.
Oh, that just made my thursday. OT- I dont care, more variety is fine IMO, as long as the spellcasting doesn't get changed too much.electric_warrior said:
I just don't want my custom character winding up walking through town in the exact same outfit everyone else is wearing. What's the point of building your own character if you hide them behind generic armor?
I'm sure it's not going to turn out as horrifying as some people imagine, but still I worry.
I'm sure it's not going to turn out as horrifying as some people imagine, but still I worry.
this. i want to steal some exquisite pants and an exquisite top, not an exquisite jumpsuit.Relaver said:
in oblivion your jumping ability was was just controlled by your acrobatics skill. so if you wanted to a jump spell you just boosted your acrobatics by a few hundred and you could jump over town walls.6_Qubed said:
I agree about alchemy. Hope you can still use it to mess with your ability to do stuff in skyrim, although with the removal of attributes I'm not hopeful. I guess it depends whether they replace effects like "+20 speed/strength" with "makes you run faster/carry more stuff/do more damage"
Don't want to look like all the other Nordy Nords? Come down to Sheogorath's Styles! Our tailors will outfit you with fur armor+pants, glass boots, elven gauntlets, and one of those beany-helicopter-hat-thingies!voorhees123 said:
Problem solved! Time for celebration! CHEEEEEEZE FOR EVERYONE!!!
Spells were ridiculously effective in Oblivion, I don't see how this is a problem.6_Qubed said:
A short-duration 100% weakness to magicka spell followed by a drain 100 health spell is a ridiculous one shot kill combo. The latter spell requires destruction 25, so can be thrown together by a starting mage, and will instant kill anything on its own for about 75% of the game.
And don't get me started on illusion.
While I won't say Oblivion was better, I don't think you can really accuse it of even trying to fix most of the problems in Morrowind. Sure, they made the pace of game faster, made Mages who actually cast spells viable (if not overpowered) and got rid of stamina depletion by running in favour of a reduced rate of stamina regeneration.Signa said:
I'm not sure how you could see any of those as bad moves, especially when there are so many others things to round on. The lack of faction diversity, the linearity of experience, the lack of any kind of lasting consequence to any action you take in the game (a criticism I would also level to a lesser extent at Morrowind), the really boring visual setting and the ease of fast travel. With the possible exception of the last one, these aren't 'fixes' which went bad, they're just mistakes.
No there aren't. That's part of the problem.Signa said:
* Learn alchemy.
* Learn enchanting.
* Win
The reason that most RPGs are more 'simple' than Morrowind is not just 'accessability'. Actually, it's much more about preserving the balance needed to keep the experience immersive and enjoyable. I'm pretty sure I spent over a hundred hours in Morrowind. I'm not some moron whose ickle brain got confused by the crappy interface and who gave up. Heck, if you think Morrowind is inaccessible I challenge you to go and play Dwarf Fortress or ADOM, games which have taken years to develop their current state undergoing successive revisions to overcome exploits and bugs and which in both cases are still very much works in progress. Both are more balanced than Morrowind.
My problem is that while the looseness of the gameplay has an appeal, it inevitably means balance is fucked. With some polish (which various members of the modding community have actually given it over the years) this could have been mitigated, but Bethesda themselves don't even seem to have tried. A supposedly epic game which you can complete in 8 minutes (including intro and character generation) is not balanced. A game where you can achieve multi-thousands in any stat through chugging potions is not balanced. In any other game, these would be considered exploits to be patched, yet some people honestly seem to consider the fact that the game pretty much spreads its legs and invites you to break it a quality rather than a fatal balance issue. For me it breaks immersion to know that I could be solving any challenge in the game just by stacking potions or making some kind of broken enchanted ring, and that the game would only reward me for it.
Giving the player a choice is important, but giving the player three distinct choices which have depth and meaning will always come out better than giving a hundred meaningless choices which are not in any way thought our or balanced and which will ultimately have no effect on anything. Limiting choice allows balance to me more effectively monitored and consequences to be written in without turning the design document into a fractal nightmare.
Personally, i'd like it if they took it even further and just had complete armour sets that you could then customise with runes or something (actually, that'd fit in with the norse look)if they have technical troubles with how many seperate pieces of armour to have.
Count me among one of those who see the lack of balance as a selling point. Morrowind is a single-player game, so balance is kind of a non-issue. And honestly any system that imposes an artificial balance between people who control cosmic forces with a thought, word, or gesture and people who hit stuff with pointy sticks is pretty silly in my eyes, and OP casters/enchanters is pretty much a staple of the fantasy genre. After all, what was LoTR if not a quest to destroy the "broken enchanted ring" that Sauron made?evilthecat said:
In other words, if I wanted a balanced game I'd make a melee class haha.
Not sure what you mean there.. are you saying that because enchants are overpowered that if you're going to use them you may as well just hack the game?Dingoman013 said:
I suppose, but it's a question of responsibility. If I hack the game then the boring experience I have is of my making. When I was a kid I hex edited C&C Red Alert so that the basic soviet rocket infantry fired homing nuclear dogs. Sure, it was funny, but I switched it back once the joke got old.
If the game had been released with homing nuclear dog troopers already installed then that would have been a different matter. Sure, I could have built conventional troopers in any given situation, but the fact remains that in any given situation I could have just been spamming nuke dogs. It's the same reason level skips in games have never taken off, it's frustrating to be challenged when you know that at any point you could be bypassing the challenge completely.
Sure, I get the point in challenge play. I already mentioned Dwarf Fortress, where 90% of the fun is derived by setting difficult objectives for yourself or choosing less than optimal conditions. But unlike Oblivion, Dwarf Fortress makes you work for success regardless of how challenging you choose to make it. It's a game where working out how to exploit something can take considerable effort, so that both doing so and not doing so are legitimate choices and each has its own rewards (such as not having to fell an entire forest Isengard style and build several hundred training spears for your danger room). In Oblivion, all the overpowered choices are obvious and accessible, and the artificial limits of roleplaying a consistent character or not abusing enchantments or making silly instant death spells are so paper thin that you can't get through the game without acknowledging them.
Well then, why were Mages absolutely pathetic individuals whose sole objective was to reach the point where they wouldn't have to rely on their own feeble abilities any more? If they had set out with the conscious intent to make magic incredibly powerful to match the lore of the game world they were creating and then informed players that not playing a mage would make the game a lot harder then that would have been respectable. As it is, they clearly attempted to balance it and just failed by making a few power strategies which just overwhelmed everything else.Kahunaburger said:
When I say breaking the game, I mean actually breaking the game. Seriously, you can complete Morrowind's final encounter so fast that the game cuts out halfway through a line of dialogue or just bugs out and doesn't actually acknowledge that you've won because what you just did was technically impossible according to the design document. And I'm not kidding about completing the game in 8 minutes either. Look up Morrowind speed runs on Youtube.
The most powerful class in Morrowind (not that class ever matters in the Elder Scrolls because you'll spend most of the time levelling non class skills to get the best attribute boosts when you level up) was not a caster at all, but a custom class with a random combination of the few abilities with a noticable gameplay effect + enchantment and alchemy.
There's also a difference between thematic imbalance and silly imbalance. Some games can get away with having slightly silly logic (I've promoted Dwarf Fortress too much already, but you can probably think of examples), but how goofy would it have been to show Sauron chugging his own weight in intelligence boosting potions prior to crafting the one ring because that was the only way he could make it overpowered enough?
Its a case of:
"You're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't"
If you make a change to a new game then the fans will scream and complain that you're changing it......but when you do nothing then the fans will complain that nothing has changed at all.
Fans love change and hate change, fans are a very hypocritical species.
"You're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't"
If you make a change to a new game then the fans will scream and complain that you're changing it......but when you do nothing then the fans will complain that nothing has changed at all.
Fans love change and hate change, fans are a very hypocritical species.