Poll: Starcraft 2: Are Terrans overpowered?
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Uuuhh were talking about SC2 now sc1, and starcraft 1 had 16+ patches + an expansion to tweak and fix and balance the game. And its still a known fact that some maps favor some races anyways, especially in #2 because of cliffwalkers.SL33TBL1ND said:
@ENKC they've been nerfed and tweaked alot, the general consensus is that if you scout them you can prepare for them pretty fast, but you wanna engage them on the field, not in your base ._. but there is also a critical mass of them you can get before they become just unstoppable (except in rare cases) at least they are expensive.
@Swny Nerdgasm its not a great quote if you think about... sometimes, or almost every time, things are legitimately overpowered, as soon as a game has a good player base people will learn unintentional mechanics in the game that can be too strong. Its just weighed down by alot of whiners sometimes ._.
edit: crap, double post u.u
Ok, fine. It's the most balanced an RTS has ever been on release, people should just stop whining and play.DarkDain said:
You didn't build any Infestors did you? If not then I can see why you might have had some trouble.Odbarc said:
Nah, I don't think Terran are OP, as a Protoss player, the only time I have problems against them is when it's in teamed games, 1v1 is where they get dominated by me.
Were talking about starcraft 2 though remember? Its crazy to think you can release a RTS game and people call it balanced in a couple weeks u.u even with 6 months of beta, they made many changes before beta ended. Besides its MOSTLY complaints that TvZ is straight up unfair, map advantages/timing attacks/light and armored dmg bonusts, heck terrans can get battlecruisers before zerg can get mutalisks!SL33TBL1ND said:
a) Argumentum ad Populum. Just because a certain number of people believe something, does not make it true or false.Redratson said:
b) SC2 is quite a young game. Brood War was continually developed new strategies for, for over 10 straight years. At this early, it is hard to say if T is overpowered or not. It oculd simply be lack of strategies for Z and P, or their current inability to see methods to defeat the few top T strats.
Y'know, at first I would have said that Terrans are overpowered..and then me and three of my buddies had done a 4 vs 4 one night, and I started protoss. I had already finished the campaign, and despite doing the protoss, never really got a good taste of the void rays......
and then I used them...
...It was awesome.... >:3.
SO yeah, it's well rounded..the only major downfall is that the Zerg is hard to collect resources...but that might just be me....
and then I used them...
...It was awesome.... >:3.
SO yeah, it's well rounded..the only major downfall is that the Zerg is hard to collect resources...but that might just be me....
Did you even read my post, or are you to busy putting down stupid representations of faces in your posts. I said "On release". Meaning it may not be perfect, but it's as good as any has ever been on first release.DarkDain said:
ok, sorry i missed a detail :3 but still only an opinion, i havnt really followed any other RTS's, maybe AoE. Its good people whined or we'd have a 60% terran playerbase lol, otherwise the whining can be avoided on the forum. Mostly needs shifted through to find the real points.SL33TBL1ND said:
Opinion yes, but calling something OP is opinion as well. Anywho, good to resolve this with you.DarkDain said:
This is just my $.02, but I think the data speaks for itself when it comes to balance issues. Zerg players have to play faster, harder, better to find themselves on even footing with the Terran. TvP and ZvP are less of an issue, but still there. I believe the reasons for these imbalances are because the Zerg lost almost everything they had over the other two races from SC1.
In SC1, Zerg was the fastest, most mobile race, with lightning-quick attacks that struck all over the map. The Zerg was always the race that could control large areas of land the quickest. Now, most of the mid-game units for Zerg have to be on creep in order to make them even decently quick. Roaches and Hydras are the main units I'm talking about, because both of them are almost unbearably slow off creep. The creep has become a necessity rather than a luxury. Most people will read this, scoff, and mutter something about OP creep tumors, but that only works when the opposing force is too dumb to kill the 20 hp tumors (or whatever they are). They're easy to detect and even easier to kill. Thus, the fastest race in the game is now the least manageable, and even though they're slower than even the lumbering Protoss, they still require surrounds to get their kills, which has become almost impossible considering the speed nerfs that reside almost across the board. Also, Zerg has zero units that can instantly traverse cliffs and take shortcuts, aside from air units (obviously). Protoss have the colossus and Blind Stalkers, Terran have Reapers and the longest effective range of any race in-game.
Another inherent problem with Zerg in SC2 is that they have precious few builds they can go early-game. Ask any high-level Zerg player, or just surf the TeamLiquid boards and you'll see the same thing: Zerg players are required to constantly change their builds to react to whatever Terran is doing. Whereas with Terran and Protoss, you can choose your build based on what you think will work that game or how you want to play that particular match, but as Zerg, if you don't adjust your build on the fly multiple times, you will be outmaneuvered by the opposition. Another problem with this is that Zerg have so few builds to choose from in the beginning of the match. Your basic choices are as follows: Baneling bust (really only works vs Terran), Roach-heavy (hard-countered by Concussive Shell Marauders), Ling/Muta (Countered by Terran Mech, as is just about every Zerg build...Terran players are in a state of utopia right now, with heavy-mech builds steamrolling every Zerg build). And last but not least is the Hydra/Roach combo. Anything else is either hard-countered by air or mech. As Terran on the other hand, you can reliably go MMM every game and no matter what build Zerg goes, you have a solid shot at winning. Or you could go heavy mech and nearly guarantee a win.
Another problem Zerg players are having to deal with is the lack of "gimmick" units, as i call them. Gimmick units are like Blink Stalkers, or Force Field Sentries, or Siege Tanks, or Conc Shell Marauders, or Reapers, or anything like that. Basically anything that has an ability that can be abused is a gimmick unit. Burrow doesn't qualify, because by default, if you're burrowed you can't do anything offensive (or even anything defensive to stop an assault). The Roach's burrow and sneak up on the enemy tactic is wholly ruined now because when roaches are moving while burrowed they're still visible, and as Terran and Protoss have the easiest access to detectors, this small victory is short-lived. The only unit that could qualify for Zerg is the Broodlord, and it's a tier 3 unit. Very few games make it to this stage, so Broodlords, along with the Ultralisk and its terrible pathing, rarely see the light of day.
That last point segway's beautifully into my next point: Tier 2.5 and 3 units are the hardest to get as Zerg. As a 1/1/1 build with Terran, you can in less than 10 minutes have multiple Thors on the field, along with Siege-ready Siege Tanks, and Marines/Hellions for Zergling detail. That build by itself nearly guarantees a win against all but the best Zerg players. It's a build that is easy to hide, since a Starport can be hidden in any corner of the map you can get to with an SCV, and likewise for the Factory. And while lots of Terran players use Factories and Barracks to wall their base in, it's almost impossible to get deep into the Terran base to spot the Starport anyway (and no, Overlords move far too slow to make it even a quarter way into the base before being killed by even one or two marines). Simply speaking, Zerg takes the longest to tech up to tier 2.5 and tier 3, and even when they hit those tiers, the enemy has had their force for longer, which means that most Zerg players will rarely get to this point anyways.
My last point is maps. Zerg require room and multiple points of entry in order to get their trademark surround-and-overwhelm tactic that makes them who they are. By definition, Zerg is the race that swarms and attacks from multiple angles in overwhelming numbers. But certain maps have been made so small, with so many tiny chokepoints and single-entry areas, that the Zerg is forced to attack in frontal, head-on engagements. This is great news for the Terran and Protoss, who, when positioned correctly, can cut through the Zerg ranks before they get in-range.
TL;DR - Zerg is at an inherent disadvantage due to a lack of effective builds and build orders, units that can hold their own without support, and due to the fact that not all multiplayer maps are created equal.
Realistically, this may not be a "Terran is overpowered" problem. The problem may very well be that Zerg simply needs a buff, and a few of its pre-patch units back (think 2-armor, 1-supply Roaches with a bit longer range or a speed buff). I won't pretend to know exactly how to fix the problem or even to how go to about leveling the playing field. All i can tell you is that stats don't lie, and IdrA, though he may be a nerdraging, rage-quitting, bad-mannered d1ck, he's still possibly the best American Zerg player, and he gets beaten regularly by no-name people in Silver league. Check his posts and stats, especially on TeamLiquid, it's all there.
In SC1, Zerg was the fastest, most mobile race, with lightning-quick attacks that struck all over the map. The Zerg was always the race that could control large areas of land the quickest. Now, most of the mid-game units for Zerg have to be on creep in order to make them even decently quick. Roaches and Hydras are the main units I'm talking about, because both of them are almost unbearably slow off creep. The creep has become a necessity rather than a luxury. Most people will read this, scoff, and mutter something about OP creep tumors, but that only works when the opposing force is too dumb to kill the 20 hp tumors (or whatever they are). They're easy to detect and even easier to kill. Thus, the fastest race in the game is now the least manageable, and even though they're slower than even the lumbering Protoss, they still require surrounds to get their kills, which has become almost impossible considering the speed nerfs that reside almost across the board. Also, Zerg has zero units that can instantly traverse cliffs and take shortcuts, aside from air units (obviously). Protoss have the colossus and Blind Stalkers, Terran have Reapers and the longest effective range of any race in-game.
Another inherent problem with Zerg in SC2 is that they have precious few builds they can go early-game. Ask any high-level Zerg player, or just surf the TeamLiquid boards and you'll see the same thing: Zerg players are required to constantly change their builds to react to whatever Terran is doing. Whereas with Terran and Protoss, you can choose your build based on what you think will work that game or how you want to play that particular match, but as Zerg, if you don't adjust your build on the fly multiple times, you will be outmaneuvered by the opposition. Another problem with this is that Zerg have so few builds to choose from in the beginning of the match. Your basic choices are as follows: Baneling bust (really only works vs Terran), Roach-heavy (hard-countered by Concussive Shell Marauders), Ling/Muta (Countered by Terran Mech, as is just about every Zerg build...Terran players are in a state of utopia right now, with heavy-mech builds steamrolling every Zerg build). And last but not least is the Hydra/Roach combo. Anything else is either hard-countered by air or mech. As Terran on the other hand, you can reliably go MMM every game and no matter what build Zerg goes, you have a solid shot at winning. Or you could go heavy mech and nearly guarantee a win.
Another problem Zerg players are having to deal with is the lack of "gimmick" units, as i call them. Gimmick units are like Blink Stalkers, or Force Field Sentries, or Siege Tanks, or Conc Shell Marauders, or Reapers, or anything like that. Basically anything that has an ability that can be abused is a gimmick unit. Burrow doesn't qualify, because by default, if you're burrowed you can't do anything offensive (or even anything defensive to stop an assault). The Roach's burrow and sneak up on the enemy tactic is wholly ruined now because when roaches are moving while burrowed they're still visible, and as Terran and Protoss have the easiest access to detectors, this small victory is short-lived. The only unit that could qualify for Zerg is the Broodlord, and it's a tier 3 unit. Very few games make it to this stage, so Broodlords, along with the Ultralisk and its terrible pathing, rarely see the light of day.
That last point segway's beautifully into my next point: Tier 2.5 and 3 units are the hardest to get as Zerg. As a 1/1/1 build with Terran, you can in less than 10 minutes have multiple Thors on the field, along with Siege-ready Siege Tanks, and Marines/Hellions for Zergling detail. That build by itself nearly guarantees a win against all but the best Zerg players. It's a build that is easy to hide, since a Starport can be hidden in any corner of the map you can get to with an SCV, and likewise for the Factory. And while lots of Terran players use Factories and Barracks to wall their base in, it's almost impossible to get deep into the Terran base to spot the Starport anyway (and no, Overlords move far too slow to make it even a quarter way into the base before being killed by even one or two marines). Simply speaking, Zerg takes the longest to tech up to tier 2.5 and tier 3, and even when they hit those tiers, the enemy has had their force for longer, which means that most Zerg players will rarely get to this point anyways.
My last point is maps. Zerg require room and multiple points of entry in order to get their trademark surround-and-overwhelm tactic that makes them who they are. By definition, Zerg is the race that swarms and attacks from multiple angles in overwhelming numbers. But certain maps have been made so small, with so many tiny chokepoints and single-entry areas, that the Zerg is forced to attack in frontal, head-on engagements. This is great news for the Terran and Protoss, who, when positioned correctly, can cut through the Zerg ranks before they get in-range.
TL;DR - Zerg is at an inherent disadvantage due to a lack of effective builds and build orders, units that can hold their own without support, and due to the fact that not all multiplayer maps are created equal.
Realistically, this may not be a "Terran is overpowered" problem. The problem may very well be that Zerg simply needs a buff, and a few of its pre-patch units back (think 2-armor, 1-supply Roaches with a bit longer range or a speed buff). I won't pretend to know exactly how to fix the problem or even to how go to about leveling the playing field. All i can tell you is that stats don't lie, and IdrA, though he may be a nerdraging, rage-quitting, bad-mannered d1ck, he's still possibly the best American Zerg player, and he gets beaten regularly by no-name people in Silver league. Check his posts and stats, especially on TeamLiquid, it's all there.
My infestors keep getting killed. I can't ever get them close enough to use Fungal spores without them dying in the attempt.snowfox said:
Even if I spam infested terrans as fodder targets. Neutral Parasite is next to useless! Gotta get so close for a couple of seconds to have one unit and again, they get killed so easily being so close.
The bulk of the HP that many Protoss units hav lies in their shield which rapidly regenerates of it's own accord. Furthermore, the terrans only have an efficient way to heal infantry units: to repair armor requires pulling the primary worker/gather unit from more lucrative duties. Zerg on the other hand tend to have more HP than terrans and lower cost relative to the vague equivalent terran unit meaning the difficulty (and slow speed) of their healing is offset significantly.Danzaivar said:
I haven't played, nor do I intend to play, Starcraft 2 (at least until it's on sale), but how can you determine that they are OP? I would think it would be really difficult to say that the Terrans are OP, until you actually get a chance to play as the other two races to see how they stack up when under the control of the PC.
terrans are as overpowered as the difference in skill level between players. If you are new to the game and go against a good terran, they might seem overpowered, but I have lost and won against all 3 races so they are not overpowered, and a solidly even race. Starcraft is more even then people give it credit for.
Really? The solution you go for is "nerf" rather than the more plausible "try to suck less" approach? Thors are incredibly vulnerable to a host of enemies. They have a weak air attack, and their base ground attack's pitiful rate of fire means fast moving units can rapidly tear them apart. That said, there is one thing about the thor that seems a bit powerful in the proper hands and that is the barrage skill. While I've never seen it done, I suspect that there are players that can readily manage the careful firing and placement of a dozen or more of these attacks which render many ground attack options useless as "fast" ground units tend to be flimsy enough that they will easily be torn to pieces if they are in a barrage zone. Of course, just because neither I nor any of the other Bronze losers can make it happen doesn't mean other players are incapable of such a feat.therookie95 said:
This doesn't imply that I think the unit needs a nerf or anything. It just seems that the problem, if one exists, likely lies in the management of that ability. It is an AOE damage attack that is roughly equivalent to a Yamoto blast afterall.