Poll: To everyone who has ever been mad at a camper, rusher, bunnyhopper, turtler, or something similar...

[Conqueror Kenny]

I think to everybody that plays any fighting game competitively should already have this mentality, the problem is that not enough people seem to understand it. In Street Fighter terms (I imagine the same context as the article I read it a very long time ago) if I can chip you all day with fireballs and you aren't going to stop me why should I change my gameplan and risk losing? I simply won't until you make me stop throwing fireballs I will gladly sit at the other side of the screen and throw them for 99 seconds.

The problem is that the two players may not be playing for the same reason, one player may be playing to win while the other might be simply playing casually. So really unless you are in a situation in which every player should be playing to win (such as a tournament) people are going to get buthurt by others that are playing to win.

On an aside, Sirlin makes good stuff every now and again and you should all really check out the rest of his site.

 

[TheSquirrelisKing]

I really don't play to win. I play to have fun. If I somehow win while playing that is just an extra bonus.

This has always been my attitude, and I feel that sometimes, campers aren't playing to have fun, they are playing to win. Not because winning makes them feel good, but because losing makes them feel bad. I think those kinds of people need to reexamine why they play games in the first place.
On that note, I feel there is nothing wrong with using whatever tools are available to you within the game, unless it has clearly been agreed and established to be poorly balanced/broken.
THAT of course is a completely different argument.

 

[The Heik]

*uber snip*

Well that is a VERY in depth and well explained argument, And I truly agree with you. I personally don't like campers (the other classes you mentioned don't really bother me) because it usually means that they player doesn't take part in the game aside from the occasional potshot, which seems to me like a waste of the server space. However, I accept them as a part of the game and actually make a challenge for myself where I try and break their camp (it's pretty fun). As for playing for fun/playing for win, I do both, or rather I have fun in surpassing my old limits, refining my playstyle or finding a new solution to a problem I face.

 

[MetallicaRulez0]

The idea that there is no such thing as "cheap tactics" in a video game is absurd. I know I'm not the only one who feels a sense of honor when I'm playing online. If I kill someone with a grenade launcher or something, I don't really get that satisfying feeling I usually get, because I know it took no skill and he couldn't do anything to avoid it. Same with sitting in a corner, or using Commando, or any of the other various bullshit perks/weapons in shooters these days.

Surely other people play games with a 'code of ethics' of sorts, or a sense of honor and self-respect?

 

[Chrono180]

I think this guy, with his "Play to win" mentality has a point. However, I am also one of those people who thinks genocide is a perfectly acceptable tactic in wartime. So make of that what you will

 

[Fenreil]

I play with a code of honor in mind, but it's pretty much just to not do the things I hate. Take Martyrdom in the first Modern Warfare. I thought it was the stupidest fucking thing to have ever been created, so I didn't use it. To this day I have never even equipped the damn thing and am proud of it.

Camping is different. Sure it can be incredibly annoying, but I feel that it's too boring to do. I just don't see the fun in staring at a wall waiting for somebody to come by.

So I guess I play for fun. I have large emphasis on winning, but I'm okay with losing most of the time. It's not all that fun, but it's not my main goal.

 

[Aura Guardian]

Well, in this mode. I camped, but then again...I was a sniper.

I don't get mad at those players, if it works. But I'm more of a run and gun type

 

[Fidelias]

So, the old "It's in the game, so it isn't cheap" argument. Plus the "as long as they're having fun" new argument. The problem is, they're having fun, but this is causing us to NOT have fun. By the same reasoning, team killing is perfectly ok, because the people who do it are having fun.

I'm not saying that people have to stand up, walk over and shake hands before starting an honorable duel, but come on! Taking advantage of a game's glitches or issues so that you can win is not OK.

EDIT: Though I have to admit, at least you posted an extremely detailed argument. So I respect you. But I still think you're wrong.

 

[Jedoro]

I've been highly tempted to "noob tube" on MW2, and even have a class set up for it, but I've been too busy having fun with USP Akimbo with Extended Magazines. Man, using those on Last Stand is pretty damn funny.

 

[Ehra]

Pretty much the only thing that'll get me in a rage is spawn camping and only then if it's a significant amount of people doing it at once, if a single player can hold up an entire team at their spawn point practically on his own then kudos to them.

Camping is a valid tactic. As is rushing, bunny hopping, grenade spam, or anything else you could to bring up. Being able to counter those tactics are what separate the good players from the rest. Sure you may be playing "just for fun" but so is everyone else in the game, and if you're going to join a public game with random people then it seems poor sportsmanship to get angry them for not holding back for your own sake.

By joining a random public game you're pretty much agreeing that anything goes, unless the server establishes rules beforehand. Now if you're playing with your friends or a regular group of people and everyone agrees on no camping but then That Guy keeps doing it, then calling him out with be justified.

So, the old "It's in the game, so it isn't cheap" argument. Plus the "as long as they're having fun" new argument. The problem is, they're having fun, but this is causing us to NOT have fun. By the same reasoning, team killing is perfectly ok, because the people who do it are having fun.

Using an ingame weapon or sitting in a single spot and waiting for people to come to you is NOT the same as intentionally griefing your own team or exploiting glitches or other non intended "features" (killing someone with a grenade is not an exploit, glitching off the map is).

you can sit there all you want to, but you aren't really working toward being a better player and besting me by having faster reaction time or out strategizing me

How is "out strategizing" someone not a sign of playing better than they are? Shouldn't the other player learn to be more cautious when near common camp spots?

 

[Fidelias]

By joining a random public game you're pretty much agreeing that anything goes, unless the server establishes rules beforehand.

Not exactly.

Using an ingame weapon or sitting in a single spot and waiting for people to come to you is NOT the same as intentionally griefing your own team or exploiting glitches or other non intended "features" (killing someone with a grenade is not an exploit, glitching off the map is).

I'm not saying that it is the same. I'm saying that the arguments that the OP uses to defend camping and other such activities would work the same for glitches and exploits.

How is "out strategizing" someone not a sign of playing better than they are? Shouldn't the other player learn to be more cautious when near common camp spots?

Camping is NOT "out strategizing". "Out strategizing" is moving through the battlefield, working with teammates to take out the enemy, not sitting in a position that allows you to get cheap kills because you can't be countered unless someone has already died by you and seen your position.

 

[ChocoFace]

Finally someone posted a topic about what i've been thinking for quite some time.
I completely agree with the OP.

 

[Ehra]

By joining a random public game you're pretty much agreeing that anything goes, unless the server establishes rules beforehand.

Not exactly.

Unless explained ahead of time by the server, why WOULDN'T you expect anything allowed by the game (and not an obvious exploit) to be fair play?

I'm not saying that it is the same. I'm saying that the arguments that the OP uses to defend camping and other such activities would work the same for glitches and exploits.

It's typically assumed that taking advantage of glitches and exploits is not the same as a gameplay tactic, and thus the same arguments do NOT apply. Just because someone may attempt to make a poor argument of justifying exploiting by comparing it to a valid ingame tactic doesn't mean they're right.

If camping wasn't an intended part of the game then why would the developers put in weapons like the sniper rifle that actively encourage that type of playstyle? And if the playstyle is allowed for one weapon then why not others?

Camping is NOT "out strategizing". "Out strategizing" is moving through the battlefield, working with teammates to take out the enemy, not sitting in a position that allows you to get cheap kills because you can't be countered unless someone has already died by you and seen your position.

The person I quoted was the one who used "out strategizing," not myself. But even so, why is it cheap for someone to take advantage of a camp spot but it's not poor play for someone to not check common spots for campers?

 

[Shock and Awe]

For every cheap strategy there is an appropriate counter-strategy.

 

[Cyenwulf]

People that need to resort to only ever using the best (read: overpowered) guns, glitches and exploits are scrubs, end of story.

 

[Theron Julius]

People don't play just to win. People play games to have fun. The scrub is not always playing to win. They want to have fun. Can you have fun losing? Of course. Also, these so called "mental rules" are not exclusive to each scrub. These guidelines of cheap vs. fair have been set down by those who are experienced. Most people who play are "bound" by them. The scrub does not break these rules because he wants it to be difficult. There is satisfaction in winning a long difficult battle. A tough fight is a fun fight to many. There is far less satisfaction in winning a battle quickly and easily. The toil and effort is what generates fun, not the ease or speed of victory.

What the writer was saying about the cheap tactics is also flawed. The cheap tactics aren't unfair because they're simply effective. They are unfair because abusing them can very much so unbalance the game in your favor in a way the game did not intend. In his example of the throw move in street fighter it is used as a counter against block. In this usage it is fair to use it since that is how it was designed. However, once you start using it repeatedly outside of that is when it gets cheap. This is because there is almost no way to defend against it since block cannot do so. The game didn't design it to be a all powerful spam move, it designed it as a simple counter to another tactic, but the cheap players go against this and abuse the power. The cheap players are going against the game's intentions.

The writer acts as if the scrub is some sort of idiot who won't explore the possibilities. Perhaps this is true in a way. But it's simply a fact that the scrub won't explore what it doesn't want to. If all scrubs were to explore the limits and become supposedly"good" players then competitive games would simply be constant spamming of the unfair tactics. There would be no fun, just cold efficiency. I firmly believe that there is no point in playing a game if you will not have fun. Fun is the reason games exist, not just for the sake of winning. To quote an old idiom "Winning isn't everything", there is honor, dignity, and of course fun.


Side note: Blargh I hate ranting. I just seriously do not agree with what the writer of the passage said.

 

[-Samurai-]

I feel that if game developers wanted people to camp, they'd make maps where it was only one room, spawn everyone in a corner, and take away the ability to move. If you're gonna play a game, play the game.

Its not even really camping that bothers me. Its when people gloat about their win(if they do win) when all the did was sit in a corner.

Also, sniping doesnt mean sitting in one spot. People seem to think camping is ok if you have a rifle that has a scope on it. Proper sniping is done by shooting, then moving to a new position. People dont seem to understand that.