I have to go with "you're dumb", because if you're going to do a hypothetical, do one that's physically possible, please.
However, the thing I take exception to is the idea that people "need" psychiatric care even if they have really weird issues. Now, if they are hurting *other people*, there is a legitimate legal basis for confining them and/or requiring them to submit to medical treatment as a condition for them not being confined. Okay. But if all they want to do is to put themselves at risk/mutilate themselves/WHATEVER to THEMSELVES, there's no basis for *requiring* them to submit to treatment.
Now, it is absolutely within a doctor's rights to refuse to perform procedures like this, and to recommend alternate treatment. Fine. Dandy. Good job there.
A few years ago I watched a special on self inflicted amputation. There are a group of people in the world who have a vision of themselves as amputees. They know exactly what they want cut off and how much. They try to get doctors to help them, but no medical professional (obviously) will perform such a drastic and unnecessary operation. They often take it into their own hands, by sticking their limbs into dry ice to give themselves frostbite and eventually gangrene. They call 911 and the hospital has no choice but to amputate their limbs. There were people in this report who had almost no mobility left at all and had to use motorized wheelchairs to get around. Psychiatrists diagnosed this as a rare form of obsessive compulsive disorder. Doctors said that these people needed therapy and antidepressants. A couple of the amputees said that their treatment was working and that without it, they might have lost even more body parts.
This brings me to my actual topic - sexual reassignment surgery. This is not a flame thread to bash gay people or transexuals. Please don't. They have every right to exist in the world in any way that they want to without hurting anybody else. I'm not even arguing whether sex change operations should be legal or not. (They should be.)
My question is whether or not these people need psychiatric help. It's one thing to prefer another gender identity. It's another thing entirely to cut off your genitals and reshape them into something else. With any surgery, there is risk of death and I would bet the death rate for sexual reassignment surgery is higher than zero.
A common thread among transexuals seems to be that they cannot stand having their genitals. So here's a quick test. Say you're a guy and woke up this morning without a penis, but a vagina. Or a woman who suddenly has a penis now. Would you risk your life with incredibly painful cosmetic surgery or would you find a way to accept your new body and live with it? And any transgender people / healthcare professionals, please feel free to tell me why I'm wrong and and a jerk. This is merely ignorance on my part (I don't know many people in real life) and I would genuinely like to hear differing perspectives.
I've seen this argument/comparison made before, and in a far more derogatory manner.
The problem is, well, treatment. Both surgery, and psychiatric care are a form of medical intervention.
Saying one is better than the other makes a fundamental assertion about which is less dangerous, but also about which is easier to change.
Now, I don't know about you, but I'm pretty uncomfortable with the idea of someone messing with my mind, even if that's technically the part that's faulty.
This becomes an even more serious question when the prevailing understanding is that psychiatric treatments don't work for the problem in question. (which has generally been the conclusion for transsexuals).
Since therapy seems to fail, and mind-altering medications aren't exactly harm-free either. (and may still not result in any real improvement), this creates a bit of a dilemma.
Do we force a person to live with something they find intolerable (because psychological treatment seems incapable of accomplishing anything), or do we perform a surgical alteration? (With all the inherent risks involved with surgery.)
Suppose hypothetically there was an option to fix the problem that involved brain surgery though.
Which would you think is less dangerous/harmful?
Changing the body surgically to fit what the mind expects?
OR
Surgically altering the wiring of the brain to fit the body it's in?
That suddenly doesn't sound so appealing does it?
The idea that psychological treatment is preferable to surgery rests on two assumptions:
Psychological treatment is effective.
Psychological treatment is less dangerous than surgery.
I think I'd just live it. I don't fit in very well anywhere currently. Girls think I am too much of a geek and guys brozone me but I'm never properly 'one of the guys' .
It might actually be in my benefit... except for the fact that I'm straight ofc.
If I just woke up with female genitalia and no other physical changes (altered bone structure, voice, looks in general), then yeah, I'd probably do what I could to get a penis back.
On the other hand, if I woke up completely looking like a woman (hopefully with the potential to be attractive), then I would live with it for a while and see whether or not it was a live I wouldn't mind living.
Kinda grown used to being a guy...So after so much time of being a woman and doing woman stuff and probably some lesbian stuff...I'd probably consider changing back to being a man, if I couldn't I'd be fine with it.
I agree with this post. Presumably, if I woke up with alternate genitalia, I'd also wake up with alternate hormones. I'm guessing I'd end up as a straight male, but if I were still attracted to men, I'd continue life as a gay male. (The dating pool would suddenly really suck, but eh?) Once I got past the "okay, how'd I get a penis" thing, I would probably be fine with all this. (And I'd get a higher metabolism and extra strength to boot! Go testosterone!)
Also, my boyfriend might very well just stay with me
OT: I would immediately try to get them removed and my own.. er, reinstated. I'm a woman; I was born a woman, I live like a woman, I feel like a woman, I like being a woman. Basically, trying to be anything else would be impossible and distressing to the extreme.
Also - and I'm not sure if this is relevant because you haven't mentioned if we're talking about just the cosmetic dangly bits or actual reproductive organs/hormones - as a woman I have the capacity to have a baby (IKR? Shock!), and that's pretty effin' huge, let me tell you. I've felt that way since I was 13 and my body started pumping out hormones. I've got no plans to have one any time soon, but if anything changed my ability to do it then I'm fairly certain it would ruin my life.[/spoiler]
I've often wondered how transgendered people feel about their ability to start families; if you were born a man but changed to a woman, is it distressing that you can't carry a baby? Or in cases like Scott Moore's [http://articles.nydailynews.com/2010-01-26/news/17943275_1_pregnant-man-paper-reports-scott-moore], how to you balance something as inherently female as being pregnant with your desire to live like a man?
I was surprised to learn the answer to this varies as much as it does. Being in a certain situation it's easy to assume your perspective matches that of others. But as it turns out, my perspective isn't as common as I would have thought.
From the moment I figured out I had some kind of problem, and what was possible to do about it, I ran headlong into the issue of children.
Because, it does bother me that I can't carry a baby. I can't be pregnant. I can't be a mother. And, at the same time, I'm voluntarily giving up my ability to be a father as well. (Although it's possible to make some provision for that by having sperm frozen.)
But the fact of it is, even though I know I'm fully capable of being a father, it, just doesn't feel right. And I have at times felt the desire to be pregnant (which is impossible for me).
So, yes. It is distressing. But as my councillor early on pointed out, there are plenty of women that can't get pregnant for one reason or another.
(And some women will go to great lengths to explain to you how you must be nuts for wanting anything to do with all the nasty things involved with periods and pregnancy... And the risk of getting pregnant unintentionally... And so on.)
unfortunately, it's not like there's much that can be done about it. My options in that regard are fairly limited, and basically amount to questions about what kind of preparations I'm willing to take in case I would want to have a child some time in the future, and surgical procedures that are pretty much non-functional and half-finished when it comes to reproduction.
So, yeah, it's pretty painful.
But I was surprised to learn I seem to be in a minority to have feelings like that.
Gender is a social construct, so your sexual biology shouldn't make that much of a difference to your personality. Might take some getting used to physically, but this is the 21st Century. Boundaries between male and female, I hope, are relatively superficial. Well, that's if you're a constructionist. If you're an essentialist, then that's bad news.
I've seen this argument/comparison made before, and in a far more derogatory manner.
The problem is, well, treatment. Both surgery, and psychiatric care are a form of medical intervention.
Saying one is better than the other makes a fundamental assertion about which is less dangerous, but also about which is easier to change.
Now, I don't know about you, but I'm pretty uncomfortable with the idea of someone messing with my mind, even if that's technically the part that's faulty. This becomes an even more serious question when the prevailing understanding is that psychiatric treatments don't work for the problem in question. (which has generally been the conclusion for transsexuals).
Very well said. I feel like I've got a slightly different perception of things. Nicely done. I don't feel we should "force" people into any way of living when they aren't hurting anyone. It seems (to me) that when somebody goes to a therapist and tells them that they really want to hurt themselves and that the recommendation is that they actually do so, that seems a little crazy to me. Not that psychiatry / mind altering drugs are the definitive answer (or any answer at all). It also seems probable that the desire to change one's sex might stem from other psychological issues and not just a completely isolated motivation hidden deep within the brain. Again, I'm talking out of my ass on this one.
a want is different from a need if someone seeks help it seem natural that they will pick whichever method they think will help I'm not massively knowledgeable in this area but I'm sure these things are volantarily entered into we don't section these people they have to bring up the topic themselves.
I'm noticing a confusion (where did gay people fit into this for a start) but to wake up and having had your genetaila switched is not actually the same thing as what is face by transexuals.
I don't believe that I have the wrong genetials in your senario, I literally have something different from what I had yesterday when I had what I already considered to be the right genetials (and functioning procreationally ones at that) so yes I would atempt to regain what I once had in the same way I would seek to replace a lost limb with a suitable replacment.
I'm not sure what you can learn from this thought experiment that doesn't reflect the base subject matter.
What's the point of a hypothetical if we cannot have the option to become pregnant/be kicked in the balls and finally solve the oldest debate known to mankind? And where is the 'Masturbate' option?
It also seems probable that the desire to change one's sex might stem from other psychological issues and not just a completely isolated motivation hidden deep within the brain.
And if the results of my poll are to be believed, that just might be true....
Live with it 70.5% (153)
Have surgery to change back 14.3% (31)
You're dumb (please explain) 15.2% (33)
Motakikurushi said:
Gender is a social construct, so your sexual biology shouldn't make that much of a difference to your personality. Might take some getting used to physically, but this is the 21st Century. Boundaries between male and female, I hope, are relatively superficial. Well, that's if you're a constructionist. If you're an essentialist, then that's bad news.
What this guy said. I feel like if trends continue, many of the classifications and boundaries we make regarding gender and sexual preferences will disappear. And this will be a good thing, more or less.
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