Pro-IP Act is signed into Law

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KSarty

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jim_doki post=18.73955.819096 said:
KSarty post=18.73955.819019 said:
But we're talking sales price. A movie only costs $20, so I would effectively be stealing $20. A Ferrari can cost half a million dollars, yet the fines are still more severe for pirates.

*snip*

You're implying that any individual caught pirating should have to pay the losses incurred by every count of piracy for that product, which is ridiculous.
If i dont have a ticket on the train, i have to pay a fine of 200 dollars. Train tickets only cost $50 in the most extreme of circumstances. why should this be any different
And that is a reasonable fine for that offense, but most of us heard about that woman paying $35,000 for pirating a $9 video game didn't we? Thats the kind of BS that goes way beyond reasonable. And they know they are being unreasonable, they are doing it as a sort of scare-tactic, to push people away from piracy. So not only is it decidedly wrong(far worse than the actual piracy if you ask me), but it isn't even working.

jim_doki post=18.73955.819096 said:
not really, i dont think so
they dont waqnt to do the time, don't do the crime
Are you serious?! You really think that if someone breaks a washer-fluid nozzle and are fined the full price of the car, thats reasonable?
 

Alex_P

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Mar 27, 2008
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jim_doki post=18.73955.819096 said:
not really, i dont think so
they dont waqnt to do the time, don't do the crime
You do something that is fully within your rights.

A huge IP-hoarding company sends you a bullshit lawsuit threat or an illegal takedown notice. They say "do whatever we say or we'll sic the feds on you and force you to fight off endless motions in a huge and painful trial." You know you've done nothing wrong. But if you fight them your whole life is gonna be absolutely, horrible fucked. What are you going to do?

You don't see how this is a huge social problem?

-- Alex
 

jim_doki

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Alex_P post=18.73955.819179 said:
You do something that is fully within your rights.

A huge IP-hoarding company sends you a bullshit lawsuit threat or an illegal takedown notice. They say "do whatever we say or we'll sic the feds on you and force you to fight off endless motions in a huge and painful trial." You know you've done nothing wrong. But if you fight them your whole life is gonna be absolutely, horrible fucked. What are you going to do?

You don't see how this is a huge social problem?

-- Alex
define "fully within your rights".

If you're talking about putting a game you've bought on several computers, its not within your rights at all. If you're talking about sharing the game online, then again, not within your rights.

the operating system thing i'll grant you. if you upgrade and you can't use something you paid for, then that's not breaking any law in my book. You haven't changed computers, you haven't stolen anything, thats not piracy.
 

jim_doki

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KSarty post=18.73955.819143 said:
And that is a reasonable fine for that offense, but most of us heard about that woman paying $35,000 for pirating a $9 video game didn't we? Thats the kind of BS that goes way beyond reasonable. And they know they are being unreasonable, they are doing it as a sort of scare-tactic, to push people away from piracy. So not only is it decidedly wrong(far worse than the actual piracy if you ask me), but it isn't even working.
I dont think you quite understand what i meant by that. Even if my train ride cost two dollars, i'm forced to pay a fine 100x that. is it fair? no. but then I shouldn't have been riding without a ticket now should i?

I know it's extreme, but that's the point. it's a deterrant. people cannot be trusted not to fuck over goodwill, the carrot hasn't worked, bring on the stick.


Are you serious?! You really think that if someone breaks a washer-fluid nozzle and are fined the full price of the car, thats reasonable?
that's not for me to decide. I do think a fine for vandalism of private property is perfectly resonable
 

Alex_P

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Mar 27, 2008
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jim_doki post=18.73955.819264 said:
define "fully within your rights".
Quoting a few sentences out of a news article to present information about a claim.

Sampling a song to the extent that fair use allows.

Reproducing a small part of a work as part of a critical article about it.

Hosting a leaked memo that demonstrates signs of a company's massive wrongdoing.

These are all examples of legal, protected activity that large companies with experience lawyers who know the law but intentionally misrepresent it have tried to quash with DMCA takedown notices.

-- Alex
 

Alex_P

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Mar 27, 2008
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HalfShadow post=18.73955.819235 said:
I live in Canada, so this doesn't apply to me.

Yes, I am laughing at your expense.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7668738.stm

Isn't this a problem?

Or do the rest of the Conservatives not agree with, err, what's that guy's name? Prentice?

-- Alex
 

jim_doki

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Alex_P post=18.73955.819302 said:
Quoting a few sentences out of a news article to present information about a claim.
quotes, outside of common knowledge, ALWAYS needs to be referenced

Sampling a song to the extent that fair use allows.
what would that be exactly? because i cant think of a single example where a sample has been used under "fair use"

Reproducing a small part of a work as part of a critical article about it.
Same as referencing

Hosting a leaked memo that demonstrates signs of a company's massive wrongdoing.
this could be an invasion of privacy, but i'm not sure. i'll tell you this tho, even if it's leaked, it doesn't make it public info.
 

Alex_P

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Mar 27, 2008
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jim_doki post=18.73955.819377 said:
Alex_P post=18.73955.819302 said:
Quoting a few sentences out of a news article to present information about a claim.
quotes, outside of common knowledge, ALWAYS needs to be referenced

Sampling a song to the extent that fair use allows.
what would that be exactly? because i cant think of a single example where a sample has been used under "fair use"

Reproducing a small part of a work as part of a critical article about it.
Same as referencing

Hosting a leaked memo that demonstrates signs of a company's massive wrongdoing.
this could be an invasion of privacy, but i'm not sure. i'll tell you this tho, even if it's leaked, it doesn't make it public info.
You are missing the point. Catastrophically.

PICK ANY GODDAMN EXAMPLE OF REAL, LEGITIMATE, 100% LEGAL FAIR USE. I DON'T CARE WHAT IT IS.

Now, imagine some douche somewhere with a lot of money and a lot of boilerplate legalese doesn't like your particular exercise of your right to fair use and systematically uses the threat of the massive, life-ruining punishments to force you or your ISP and your publisher to comply with his desires despite the fact that you were exercise real, legitimate, 100% legal fair use rights. How many people do you think are going to be able to seriously resist?

-- Alex
 

jim_doki

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Alex_P post=18.73955.819410 said:
You are missing the point. Catastrophically.

PICK ANY GODDAMN EXAMPLE OF REAL, LEGITIMATE, 100% LEGAL FAIR USE. I DON'T CARE WHAT IT IS.

Now, imagine some douche somewhere with a lot of money and a lot of boilerplate legalese doesn't like your particular exercise of your right to fair use and systematically uses the threat of the massive, life-ruining punishments to force you or your ISP and your publisher to comply with his desires despite the fact that you were exercise real, legitimate, 100% legal fair use rights. How many people do you think are going to be able to seriously resist?

-- Alex
again, this depends on what fair use is. its simple really, you don't break the law, you won't get in trouble.
 

Alex_P

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Mar 27, 2008
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jim_doki post=18.73955.819290 said:
that's not for me to decide. I do think a fine for vandalism of private property is perfectly resonable
You're a citizen. As long as you're informed about the issues, you definitely should play a role in deciding what constitutes a crime and what constitutes a reasonable punishment for that crime.

Otherwise you're just letting a bunch of self-interested jerks lobby for legislation that favors them instead of everyone's shared interest.

-- Alex
 

Alex_P

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Mar 27, 2008
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jim_doki post=18.73955.819456 said:
again, this depends on what fair use is. its simple really, you don't break the law, you won't get in trouble.
Okay, just take it for granted that you didn't break the law. Whatever you did, you didn't break the law. Just stipulate that, okay?

Someone threatens you with severe punishment anyway. Given their great advantage in resources, they have a non-trivial chance of winning a lawsuit against you despite the fact that you didn't break the law. If you lose that lawsuit, you get absolutely fucked. If you do successfully defend yourself, it's going to be a painful process and they'll probably get off with a very light punishment for attacking you in an absolutely fraudulent way.

Do you see why that's a problem?

Because that shit happens now.

http://www.chillingeffects.org/

-- Alex
 
Dec 1, 2007
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Shivari post=18.73955.818776 said:
Imitation Saccharin post=18.73955.817902 said:
jim_doki post=18.73955.817002 said:
it wont ruin your life, Man up
pfff, who needs a house?
So when forced to pick between your house and your music you'd pick the music?

Sounds like a great way to live.
*waits for Shivari to accidentally violate the labyrinthine IP laws of DMCA-complaint music*

You will come to us eventually.
 

jim_doki

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Alex_P post=18.73955.819492 said:
Okay, just take it for granted that you didn't break the law. Whatever you did, you didn't break the law. Just stipulate that, okay?

Someone threatens you with severe punishment anyway. Given their great advantage in resources, they have a non-trivial chance of winning a lawsuit against you despite the fact that you didn't break the law. If you lose that lawsuit, you get absolutely fucked. If you do successfully defend yourself, it's going to be a painful process and they'll probably get off with a very light punishment for attacking you in an absolutely fraudulent way.

Do you see why that's a problem?

Because that shit happens now.

http://www.chillingeffects.org/

-- Alex
dude, money cannot change the law. if you're being bullied, stand up! this isn't a playground, it's the legal system. if you haven't broken the law, or used something that you haven't got permission to use, then you are fine.
 

The Wooster

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Jul 15, 2008
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jim_doki post=18.73955.819621 said:
dude, money cannot change the law. if you're being bullied, stand up! this isn't a playground, it's the legal system. if you haven't broken the law, or used something that you haven't got permission to use, then you are fine.
Sorry but that's ridiculous. You're completely ignoring the effect criminal accusations have on job prospects, family relations, social standing etc as well as assuming that all legal representation is equal, it isn't. If a company were to take you to court you would a: have to rely on state sponsored advocacy or b: hire your own layer. The first is a sure fire way to ensure you lose the case and the second could potentially ruin you. The company does not have this problem. The idea that companies would use the legal system to enforce their will regardless of legaility is naive to the point of insanity.
 

Lord Krunk

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Alex_P post=18.73955.819492 said:
jim_doki post=18.73955.819456 said:
again, this depends on what fair use is. its simple really, you don't break the law, you won't get in trouble.
Okay, just take it for granted that you didn't break the law. Whatever you did, you didn't break the law. Just stipulate that, okay?

Someone threatens you with severe punishment anyway. Given their great advantage in resources, they have a non-trivial chance of winning a lawsuit against you despite the fact that you didn't break the law. If you lose that lawsuit, you get absolutely fucked. If you do successfully defend yourself, it's going to be a painful process and they'll probably get off with a very light punishment for attacking you in an absolutely fraudulent way.

Do you see why that's a problem?

Because that shit happens now.

http://www.chillingeffects.org/

-- Alex
Wow. Looking through that site, I see that Fanfiction is illegal.

Like I said before, this law may be enforced, but no-one's going to care after a month. How can they track down something that isn't legal? It's just stupid.

Oh, and I agree with Decoy.
 

AlphaWolf13

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Mar 20, 2008
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jim_doki post=18.73955.818848 said:
KSarty post=18.73955.818821 said:
The problem is that the fines are outrageous. You would get fined less for stealing a Ferrari than you would for pirating a movie.
yes, but consider the cost of making a ferarri compared to the cost of making a film

which one do you think is more expensive. I'll give you a clue:
"how many fararris have Brad Pitt or Nicole Kidman in them?"
Weird, it's like your logic disappeared. Since when is ONE Ferarri made for thousands/millions/billions of people??

Your comparison is completely unrelated to this argument. It's just illogical.
 

jim_doki

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AlphaWolf13 post=18.73955.819994 said:
Weird, it's like your logic disappeared. Since when is ONE Ferarri made for thousands/millions/billions of people??

Your comparison is completely unrelated to this argument. It's just illogical.
hey buddy i didn't bring up the ferarri/movie bit. yes, movies are made for a lot of people. thats why you pay only 12 bucks to see it, as they're hoping enough people will pay to see it to make their money back. Ferarri work in exactly the same way, except instead of making one car for lots of people, they make lots of cars for a lots of people. they put a certain amount of money in, and expect a certain amount out.

If we take the fact that only one person can steal a ferarri, that means that the company only loses that much money. movies however are much more expensive, and need much more return on their dollar, so any theft can and will hurt their revenue, quite severely.

On a side note, am I the only one who's actually kinda happy about this? I mean do you people not WANT games to make money or something? im starting to worry i'm turning into a troll
 

Saskwach

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jim_doki post=18.73955.819621 said:
dude, money cannot change the law. if you're being bullied, stand up! this isn't a playground, it's the legal system. if you haven't broken the law, or used something that you haven't got permission to use, then you are fine.
If you truly believe that you've never had a run-in with the law. If you actually get your case to a court and risk everything on the court's decision (ie, go the whole nine yards, and the whole $9000) then yes, the law will (hopefully) support you. The thing is, though, that the more draconic and convoluted laws are the easier it is for jumped-up lawyers with big money behind them to scare you into acquiescing. He knows you haven't done anything wrong, you know it, a judge/jury would know it, but if the cost to prove yourself right for what might be a very minor issue is thousands of dollars then of course you won't waste a hefty part of your savings on principle. So you'll give in, and that's all that was demanded of you.
This is how the law works in practical cases. In my family and amongst friends, friends of friends and friends of the family I've only ever heard of cases that operated like this or worse. The only time justice was ever (sometimes) served was when the little guy had was stubborn enough to choose principle over expense.
My parents own a block of land. One day they were asked to help the Water Corporation (Perth's catch-all Government Sponsored Enterprise for all water infrastructure) with their work on the block's street, just as a dumping ground for equipment. They agreed - on the condition that the block would be the same afterwards as it was before: untouched. The WC finished their work and all seemed fine, until my parents were approached by a man hoping to buy the block. He was a WC employee, and during his negotiations (in my understanding) he got out the most recent plans of the block and discovered, to his feigned surprise, that there was a newly placed water pipeline under the block. Whose pipe? The Water Corp's, of course. This GSE had invaded private property, without even notifying the owners. As it turns out, the WC is allowed to do this under certain circumstances: when it first notifies the owners and allows them to question the necessity of the pipe and its placement. The WC, though, had deliberately ignored this requirement in an effort to save itself time and money - it had essentially trespassed. I won't go into the sad details of the case from there, but I will say that it took 2 years, the legendary stubbornness of my father, and my mother's experience as a lawyer to get even the barest of concessions - compensation for the loss in value of the block (and don't think this wasn't quibbled over endlessly) and the concession that any protection the pipe may need from building activity on the block would be paid for by the WC. If this had happened to any other family - one without a man who will choose principle over money any day of the week, and a woman who knows how to go get things done within the legal system - the WC would have gotten away with breaking the law and giving no compensation back - and, judging by the calculated nature of the whole operation, it probably has elsewhere.
I also know of two cases in which academics - both friends of the family - were fired by a local university on what was, without a doubt, completely bogus charges. Both, again uncharacteristically, had both the money and the will to fight their sacking, but both lost in the final decision, despite the university frequently breaking the law and ignoring court orders (like, for example, being ordered by the judge to give particulars, any details at all, of the crime one was alleged to have committed - the crime that directly lead to the sacking. In the end they simply ignored the order and, incredibly, the judge didn't care and sided with them in the end, anyway.).
I don't think that these anecdotes prove that such a thing is widespread and systemic - though I think it is. I only mention them because they show the Alex_P at least has a point that money gets you a better outcome in legal disputes nine times out of ten. He also has a point that the stricter and more slanted to one side the law is, the easier it is for that side to abuse its legal protection.