Rape versus assault and murder

[esperandote]

for me torture is worse.

 

[dogmeat-the-stray]

I dunno... I view rape as a kind of torture, and I always consider torture worse than murder. You can end someone's life and their pain is over with, but with rape/torture/other heinous acts, it's an enduring pain that often cannot be healed.

Also, I have never in my life heard an abusive, violent parent referred to simply as "bad". That'd the an exceptional understatement.

This.

Because you can justify killing someone. You can never justify raping them.

To commit murder, you might simply believe that your life is in danger, you might be trying to protect someone, etc. There are a whole range of plausible, excusable motives for murder. Killing can be a social good - removing our enemies is something we all wish, and occasionally need to do to survive.

Try and justify rape.

And this.

Discussions like this alarm me a bit, however, by their emphasis on prioritizing. While I would agree that rape is -one of- the most horrifying things to do to another human being, you simply can't put a number on pain. How it affects somebody and those around them all depends on the circumstances, and it's not our place to try to sort out whose "matters" more - the fact is, rape, assault and murder are wrong and must be dealt with soundly, ideally working on how we view them as a society so as to nip the problem in the bud rather than punishing after the fact.

Also, I'm unsure where you've gotten the idea that most people would hold rape as worse than any other crime. Rape victims are quite commonly joked about and questioned, and I've heard a good number of males (I'm not saying all males, only specifying males as I have not heard the sentiment from any other women) who have not been sexually assaulted assuming that it is not as big a deal as we crazy hysterical females make it out to be.

 

[Break]

To combine the two - if someone rapes a woman I care about, I will kill them, and damn the law. Justice and revenge are irrevorcably linked, and to think otherwise is moral cowardice of the basest degree.

Moral cowardice, is it? What entertaining words. Ooh, oh, can I try it? It looks like fun. "People that rely on some perverted definition of justice as an excuse to use violence, in an attempt to satiate their primitive rage, are more pathetic than the criminals themselves." Hrm, not as polished as yours, but not a bad try, for a few minutes' work. Although, I must say, pretty words are fun, but they're a little weak, aren't they? Especially when you don't justify them with anything.

On another note, I love how everyone's thinking in terms of the victim, and nothing else. Aha, especially with all the "murder is an ending" talk coming from both sides of the argument. Delightful, really. I'm beginning to understand why the eye-for-an-eye mentality is so easy to fall into. O'course, I do find it a little sad that people think on such small scales, but ah well.

 

[The Infamous Scamola]

*snip*

I hate the internet. The complete absence of tonal and visual cues make me act like an autistic kid sometimes.

 

[realguypablo]

Apart from all the physical and then long lasting psychological damage, there is also the possibility of forcing a new life onto someone. I could be wrong, but I doubt a rapist takes the time to pull out a condom or make sure a female victim is taking some form of birth control. While a victim may take several years to recover, even if only partially, the salt in the wound would have to be knowing one has been impregnated by one's assailant. Whether one aborts the child, gives birth and gives the child away, or gives birth and raises the child there remains the added humiliation. I have spoken with counselors who deal with mothers who have abortions and they also need counseling. Pile that onto the father being a rapist and you've got one psychologically destroyed person.

 

[Drake the Dragonheart]

.

Try and justify rape.

You could rape someone to prevent them from murdering someone? I'm sure Hitler wouldn't have had the cojones to do what he did if he had been raped prior. Just putting this out there.

I know a saw a comedian doing a skit or a routine about that. The one and only one possible justification, going back in time and doing it to Hitler. But I also think he went on that it might create a paradox that causes the Holocaust anyways, or even makes it worse, as impossible as it would be for the Holocaust to have been worse. This is just what the comedian whose name evades me said, I am not trying to justify what he was saying.

It's like making someone choke to death on cake: you take something so pleasing, so beautiful, and so pure, and you twist it to serve a sick purpose.

Precisely.

snip, really sad story

I am so very very sorry, that is something no one should EVER have to endure, my condolensces to your friend. She probably will never be able to trust men again either, and while very very sad, with good reason I am afraid. There have some posts on this thread that have made me feel a level of disgust words just can't describe. I know you said that no one retort unless it has happened to said person, but I am not really trying to retort to what you said, so I hope you will forgive what follows

I would say that assault simply can't compare. It just can't inflict anywhere near the psychological damage, and the victim lives. If they don't then the assault becomes murder.
But murder vs rape is a tough call. Both sides have made valid points. The damage caused, the lasting effects, and rape is just the most vile act a human can commit. I think we can say no good person ever deserves either, no argument. Let me ask a question, though. Does a heartless murderer deserve to be raped? Does a rapist deserve to be raped themselves? Not trying to stir up more controversy than has already been made, just asking.

Obviously I have never been murdered as I am typing this, and have been fortunate enough to have never had the other happen, and it has never happened to anyone I know (that I know of) Also to anyone who it has happened to, or knows someone that it did, I extend my deepest sympathies.

But I am really torn as to which is worse. While I have never found sex to be anything beautiful (actually I find it a bit disgusting), as I have stated, I like many, think rape is the most vile act possible. At the same time, murder is final. There is NO recovering from it. Sometimes, yes there is no other option, but I really don't think that necessarily "justifies" it, and I don't believe that good comes from killing, even to remove an evil tyrant who slaughters his people. While the people being freed is certainly good, what I am saying is, couldn't it be accomplished without killing? Don't get me wrong, an argument could be made that such a tyrant certainly deserves death, but I would say more it would be an ugly and necessary evil depending on the situation. If I had to kill someone in order to defend myself, even if absolutely justified, I know I would still feel horrible. I would move on, but that would be there. Now for clarification, I am in no way trying to compare having to kill in self defense to being a rape victim, that if seems like that way, it is not in any way shape or form my intention, but rather rape vs cold-blooded murder.
Now I have been lucky enough to have never been raped, but while it would be more difficult to recover than I could possibly imagine, it is POSSIBLE for the victim to recover, though sadly, it rarely if ever happens.
So I guess while initially I would have said murder, depending on the answer to my question of whether rape is something even the most vilest of monsters don't deserve, I think I now lean towards rape being worse.
I also apologize if I have rambled on a bit.

 

[Kuchinawa212]

Because in America, sex is illegal to even mention, whereas blood guts and gore is just somewhat frowned upon.

Unless it's Gears of War then their needs be a lot of it XD
but on topic

I see what you are saying, but I feel like the worst possible thing you can do to another person is tourture them and break them so they go insane. So can't even take shelter in their own mind

 

[Mephisteus]

Assault isn't even on the same scale, less psychological damage and all. Though if you're a self-styled tough guy (true or not) it can lead to some mental issues. It can lead to real serious issues if whomever you were with didn't get away with just assault.

Murder, is, worse. Just because not everyone recovers from rape, doesn't mean that others don't. Murder forces the chance of life away, rape 'just' reduces that chance. Yes rape is disgusting, degrading, and traumatising. It does however have one rather significant advantage over murder, it doesn't leave you dead in a ditch.

But since the odds of someone getting to choose rape or murder are rather slim. You'd simply have to deal with the cards you'd be given. Unless you'd be dead, in which case you won't have to deal.

--------------

The rape vs assault thing that the topic was on about is a bit more complicated. I'll leave that to others, not sure how I view that particular issue beyond "assault = assault" and "rape = assault + rape + assault". Assault likely produces a lesser feeling of powerlessness, while rape has that feeling lasting an awfully long time. That's just guesswork on my part though.

(Please forgive any brash statements I made here, they are simplified, abbreviated, and strengthened/exaggerated to get what I'm trying to say across. This being the internet that kinda goes for itself, but with this being a serious topic and all.)

 

[The Infamous Scamola]

.

Try and justify rape.

You could rape someone to prevent them from murdering someone? I'm sure Hitler wouldn't have had the cojones to do what he did if he had been raped prior. Just putting this out there.

I know a saw a comedian doing a skit or a routine about that.

Yeah, I'm a bit of a joke thief. Louis CK is the man.

 

[FallenRainbows]

Because broken bones heal relatively quickly - psychological damage is slightly less inclined to go away.

For me, personally, it's just that I don't have any moral problem with murder.

But you have one with rape? I didn't no you could have moral problems, this has been a learning experience.

SNIP*
Try and justify rape.

Challenge accepted.

My sister has her life destroyed by a devious plot crafted by a former friend(jealous *****). She uses rumors and lies to convince everyone of my sister's evil driving her away from society. The scowls, glares, and insults hurled her way drive my sister insane. After a couple weeks of insanity she kills herself in a terribly painful and disturbing way because she believes she deserves to suffer. Her former friend basks in the attention gained for having been close to such a scumbag and takes pride in the success of her plot.

So I rape her. Do I win?

No that makes you just as bad. You need to be worse you just destroy her, the same way she did your sister, but worse, be creative. Rape is not deserving of that. You need something with more... flare

 

[The Infamous Scamola]

Anyway, it's not really fair to you guys, especially since I add odd emphasis in odd places and I talk with my hands a lot.

You're Italian? I can see it now: "MaxIlMietitore"

And everyone laughed and had a grand old time.

*sigh*

 

[A Pious Cultist]

Well, you're totally off-base.
Rape is worse than murder.

Probably-broken logic time:

If rape is worse than murder why not kill the victim since that's apparently better then living on after rape?

 

[Skarvig]

Challenge accepted.

My sister has her life destroyed by a devious plot crafted by a former friend(jealous *****). She uses rumors and lies to convince everyone of my sister's evil driving her away from society. The scowls, glares, and insults hurled her way drive my sister insane. After a couple weeks of insanity she kills herself in a terribly painful and disturbing way because she believes she deserves to suffer. Her former friend basks in the attention gained for having been close to such a scumbag and takes pride in the success of her plot.

So I rape her. Do I win?

I hope you are serious about that one, because I think you have a very valid point there. It's basically the same what some people say about revenge and justice. They drove your sister insane and hurt you too, cause losing some one you love hurts, so you hurt them. It's rape that just was justified, good job.

Btw. someone said that revenge justice are linked. That's bullshit. And if you say "no it's not", then I'll say that 9/11 was a revenge attack. America fucked with the Middle East, so they get their revenge, which was called irrevorcably linked to justice, and that's why 9/11 was ok!

(I know this statement above can be misunderstood. 9/11 was horrible and very wrong and probably nothing can justify it. I just said it to proof why taking self justice is horribly dumb and wrong.)

Well, you're totally off-base.
Rape is worse than murder.

Probably-broken logic time:

If rape is worse than murder why not kill the victim since that's apparently better then living on after rape?

Awesome post. 100% this.

Oh and also : Rape can be funny by George Carlin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=DE&hl=de&v=VcFryjunIjw

 

[Lynx]

Well, you're totally off-base.
Rape is worse than murder.

Probably-broken logic time:

If rape is worse than murder why not kill the victim since that's apparently better then living on after rape?

Awesome post. 100% this.

I will remind you that there are a lot of rape victims who indeed do commit suicide.



OT: I'm a bit astonished that no one has mentioned the fact that the vast majority of all rape victims were raped by somebody they knew, or somebody within the family. Imagine how much more it fucks you up to be raped by none other than your spouse/parent/sibling.




Anyhow, my conclusion is this: The only one who knows which is worse is he/she who has been both raped and murdered. And since I will not get an answer from them, I will stop looking for one. I need not know anyway. My posts end here.

 

[Lonan]

I read an American cartoon (in a gaming magazine, so made by gamers) that related to ratings. It had a one of those online faces things with a sign to indicate if what was happening was okay or not. Note that it was a long time ago and I'm basically making up the contents, but the gist and structure is the same.

Lighting people on fire and shooting their half dead corpses for kicks, OK!

Shooting people with Ak-47's as a form of light entertainment, OK!

Throwing grenades at people so you can gleefully watch them explode into blood and guts, OK!

Two consenting adults having protected sex, PROTECT THE CHILDREN'S VIRGIN EYES!

 

[Drake the Dragonheart]

.

Try and justify rape.

You could rape someone to prevent them from murdering someone? I'm sure Hitler wouldn't have had the cojones to do what he did if he had been raped prior. Just putting this out there.

I know a saw a comedian doing a skit or a routine about that.

Yeah, I'm a bit of a joke thief. Louis CK is the man.

Ah yes thank you, that is indeed the skit I was thinking of. That was fairly humorous.

 

[Amoreyna]

In every discussion, article, newsitem, .. you hear, read or see there seems to be this general consensus that raping someone is the single worst act somebody can do. While it's not hard to understand that rape is something extremely unpleasant and painful I don't understand why it's so much worse than kicking somebody in the face so hard he needs reconstructive surgery.

Because while kicking someone in the face is extremely painful and entirely wrong, rape violates a persons most intimate part - male or female. Most rapes have a lot of physical violence attached to them too, so seperating them out is incorrect. On top of this physical violence (being beaten, tied up, gagged, strangled, suffocated etc.) you have someone violating your body. So yes, rape ends up being the worse crime in many instances.

Also, there seem's to be a guilt part associated with rape, women that have been raped feel that it's there fault somehow is something you hear alot. I don't really get this either: if somebody raped/beat me I would be furious even if I DID provoke that person.

And it is obvious that you have never had anything taken from you by form that inherently belonged to you. As a former victim's right advocate I can say that guilt isn't just a female phenomena, male victims of sexual assult and rape feel it too and often even worse. You feel completely inhuman and totally debased after being assulted and that's when you begin to blame yourself for not stopping it. Male victims believe that if they were stronger or more manly then it would never have happened. Female victims are trained to believe by society that since it happened to them they must be whores and harlots and deserved it.

This is even more so when it happens to a minor. Yes ofcourse childrape is horrible, even worse that regular rape, I'm not saying it's not horrible (have to be careful on online forums). But a drunk parent that beats his/her child into the hospital is 'a bad parent' while a parent that sexualy abuses his/her daughter/son is evil-wise the equivalent of a Hitler/Stalin/Ted Bundy-mutation, even though both parents seriously psychologicly and physicly damage their child.

I have also worked with sexually abused children, including video-tapping their stories for courtroom use. I can tell you that what happens to sexually abused children completely and utterly dwarfs physical abuse. Yes both are completely and utterly wrong, any parent who is guilty of doing this to their own child or foster child needs to be locked up and never allowed near children. When you meet a 5 year old that has been viciously raped you get a sick feeling that never goes away.

And as with adults, children who are sexually abused are often beaten, restrained etc. or are psychologically abused in the extreme. There are multiple kinds of abuse happening at once, not to mention the violation of a child who usually can't understand it and can't deal with it. So yes, that makes it worse in many cases.

Maybe I just can't understand this for some reason (I'm not a woman, I'm emotionaly dead, I'm a mysogynist, I'm a rapist, ..) but it seems to me like rape is a crime that gets alot more of undeserved emotional response.

Actually rape is a crime that has only gotten more of the spotlight in recent decades and still in many cultures and countries it is deemed alright to both rape and beat your wife. In some parts of the world female circumcision is still practiced, which is both brutal and extreme. It used to be alright to rape and abuse your slaves and servants and still is in some places. If you ever want to really get an interesting historical perspective read some of Frued's work before he got famous. He realized that the 'hysterical' female patients that he had were being sexually assulted and raped, usually by their own husbands or families. This patients came from very well to do families and his original discovery did not sit well. He fell out of favor until he came up with his now celebrated approach to psychology, including the whole penis envy crap.

So no, rape has just recently gotten a spotlight which is probably also why it is reported more often.

On a personal note, having endured both - I would rather be beaten then raped.