Religious Freedom

[moretimethansense]

We can do without the insults, thanks. I've been nothing but understanding in this discussion.
And just because I'm an atheist doesn't mean people don't have to respect my beliefs. Just because I'm an atheist doesn't mean I don't have any beliefs to respect. If I were to say that I only wear pirate hats due to my Pastafarianism?, does that mean I now earn your religious respect? I'm fine with not entering, I've already stated that several times.

Understanding?
Hah! That's a laugh, you demand respect of your "beliefs" yet you refuse to respect those of the religious group you supposedly desire to learn about.
You are being immature, there is no two ways about it.

And no, you don't have any religious beliefs, atheism is not a religion, that's kinda the point.
It's people with your attitude that make the rest of us look like arseholes.

As for if you were a pastafarian?
Sure, why not?
It still means you can't go in to a synagogue though.

 

[Snotnarok]

I wore a yamaka for my friends barmitzva (I'm aware I butchered this sentence but spell check isn't helping and it's 5:10 AM) and while I'm not religious I wasn't about to not go with it. It's not like you've just branded yourself religious it's just about ...not making an ass of yourself I guess.

But isn't this something you agreed to by going with the trip? If not ask before going?

 

[GundamSentinel]

I know I'm the visitor, and I'm expected to join in and such,

It's not really a question of 'joining in'. You are there as an observer and in no way connected with those religious beliefs. It's just a sign of respect to people who are part of that religion. If you're uncomfortable with that, it's fine and understandable. But you're not joining any religious activities by wearing a skullcap, you just respect peoples' feelings. I had to do the same thing in a Jewish cemetery once, and it didn't really bother me. Just think of it like wearing a hard hat when visiting a building site.

 

[TacticalAssassin1]

We can do without the insults, thanks. I've been nothing but understanding in this discussion.
And just because I'm an atheist doesn't mean people don't have to respect my beliefs. Just because I'm an atheist doesn't mean I don't have any beliefs to respect. If I were to say that I only wear pirate hats due to my Pastafarianism?, does that mean I now earn your religious respect? I'm fine with not entering, I've already stated that several times.

Understanding?
Hah! That's a laugh, you demand respect of your "beliefs" yet you refuse to respect those of the religious group you supposedly desire to learn about.
You are being immature, there is no two ways about it.

And no, you don't have any religious beliefs, atheism is not a religion, that's kinda the point.
It's people with your attitude that make the rest of us look like arseholes.

As for if you were a pastafarian?
Sure, why not?
It still means you can't go in to a synagogue though.

I do respect their beliefs. I just don't want to take part in the tradition of wearing a yarmulke when I go there to learn about it. I believe I'm being quite mature and reasonable. You're the one who is claiming people are immature arseholes.
Just because I say I'm an atheist, doesn't mean that I have no beliefs in religious matters. One of my beliefs is that people should respect others. You obviously have a problem with doing that, and if you're not willing to respect my opinion then I have no further business with you.

 

[Still Life]

I understand where you're coming from.

However, could it really be that painful to respect the rules of the house as they were, and experience it just for those few hours?

I'm not religious, but I'd take my shoes off when going into a mosque as a sign of respect.

I do the same, but I think that there is a difference between taking of your shoes and putting on a symbol of a religion. Same difference as not making loud noises when people are praying in a church and refusing to participate in the prayer.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't removing footwear a symbolic gesture of faith in a mosque?

Great point, though.

 

[Bobbity]

Sometimes you have to deal with it; if it's a custom that you have to wear a skincap within one of their holy places, then by all means you should.

Besides which, I have to put up with an extraordinary amount of crap about religion at my school
[small]Except for Lord of the Dance. That's a fucking awesome hymn. The rest can go fucking burn though.[/small]

 

[TacticalAssassin1]

I wore a yamaka for my friends barmitzva (I'm aware I butchered this sentence but spell check isn't helping and it's 5:10 AM) and while I'm not religious I wasn't about to not go with it. It's not like you've just branded yourself religious it's just about ...not making an ass of yourself I guess.

But isn't this something you agreed to by going with the trip? If not ask before going?

They didn't even let us know this would be happening until today, and the trip is tomorrow. I let my teacher that myself and some other students weren't agreeing with it. They gave me short notice it would be happening, we gave short notice we didn't agree. I don't know how this is going to turn out.

 

[moretimethansense]

I do respect their beliefs. I just don't want to take part in the tradition of wearing a yarmulke when I go there to learn about it. I believe I'm being quite mature and reasonable. You're the one who is claiming people are immature arseholes.
Just because I say I'm an atheist, doesn't mean that I have no beliefs in religious matters. One of my beliefs is that people should respect others. You obviously have a problem with doing that, and if you're not willing to respect my opinion then I have no further business with you.

Okay, allow me to put this in to simple terms so I can get my point across.

Their beliefs are that NO MALE should enter without wearing a kippah.

You a male, wish to enter without wearing a kippah.

Ergo you are not respecting their beliefs by refusing to wear one.

It's your right to choose not to go in, but it is not in your right to infringe on their beliefs by entering without wearing a kippah.

Would you enter a mosque with your shoes on left foot first?
It's the same thing, it is a sign of disrespect.

EDIT: BTW, I am somewhat annoyed by your implication that I do not respect others traditions as I sit here stateing that you should.

And another thing, resspecting others beliefs is not a religios belief, it is a personal one.
Atheists by definition have no religious beliefs.

 

[iamthe1]

Dude, it's just a yarmulke (skullcap? seriously?). Just put the damn thing on and participate! If you're worried that it's going to change you, then you're beliefs are rather fragile to begin with. It seems like you're raising a stink for no reason.

Trust me, as long as it's not a super-orthodox service, you'll soon forgot that you even have it on: you'll be too busy singing.

My English teacher called it a skullcap, so I just decided to use that name for it.
I know it's not going to change me. That's not the point.
And no, I highly doubt I'll be singing.

Okay, I posted hastily, but I'm still confused: Are they making going into the synagogue mandatory?

If you are being forced to participate in a religious event or observe a religious ceremony, then yes, that is nonsense, and they have no right to make you do it, so please raise a stink.

But if however it is not mandatory, then I don't see what the problem is. Either don't do it, or just put it on and go in. I was assuming they're just asking you to participate, and you're being obstinate for no good reason.

 

[Bobbity]

I wore a yamaka for my friends barmitzva (I'm aware I butchered this sentence but spell check isn't helping and it's 5:10 AM) and while I'm not religious I wasn't about to not go with it. It's not like you've just branded yourself religious it's just about ...not making an ass of yourself I guess.

But isn't this something you agreed to by going with the trip? If not ask before going?

They didn't even let us know this would be happening until today, and the trip is tomorrow. I let my teacher that myself and some other students weren't agreeing with it. They gave me short notice it would be happening, we gave short notice we didn't agree. I don't know how this is going to turn out.

Just go with it. It's like obeying the rules of the house; it doesn't mean that you've suddenly converted or anything. People often have to go through a lot of shit being forced to participate in the religion of their school - be that Christian, Muslim, Jewish or so on. This is pretty low on the scale.

Besides which, I'd imagine that your school has the occasional church service, and that non-christian people have to put up with that, and a lot more frequently than you're going to be doing this.

 

[Bobbity]

You are the visitor. They are calling the shots. You can choose not to visit. They honestly feel can't let you in without the hat. This is not a matter of imposing their religion on the world at large [like the absence of legal abortion in Ireland, for example], but a matter of doing so in their own home, so to speak.

I can't choose not to visit actually. I could break school rules and not turn up when they expect me to, get a detention and get in trouble with my parents, OR I can turn up, be open minded, and politely decline to wear the thing. Which one do you think is more rude?

Religious tolerance is in short supply these days; especially in America. Please just go along with it. I'm sure that there are non-christians in your school who have to put up with the occasional church service, etc.

We can do without the insults, thanks. I've been nothing but understanding in this discussion.
And just because I'm an atheist doesn't mean people don't have to respect my beliefs. Just because I'm an atheist doesn't mean I don't have any beliefs to respect. If I were to say that I only wear pirate hats due to my Pastafarianism?, does that mean I now earn your religious respect? I'm fine with not entering, I've already stated that several times.

I thought that, as an atheist, you'd be more tolerant of other religions than a christian

I think that you are being childish and contrary just for the sake of being contrary.

You claim that you want them to respect your belifs but are unwilling to respect their's, you can frankly sod off you offenssive git, willfully ignoring the will of your host is incredibly rude regardless of the situation, for example were you to enter my house wearing an article of clothing made of fur after I'd told you that that was unacceptable in my house I'd throw you the fuck out.
And by the way, you say your an atheist?
We don't HAVE any religious beliefs to respect.

The only time that this should even be an issue would be if you had a specific religious belief that didn't allow for the wearing of hats, and even then the only correct response would be to not enter.

If you are so offended by a small religios item you have no buisness setting foot on any holy ground at all.

Please, stop. I understand that this kid's sense of pride is frustrating, but insulting him for being close-minded isn't exactly helping.

 

[MacGuges]

I wore a yamaka for my friends barmitzva (I'm aware I butchered this sentence but spell check isn't helping and it's 5:10 AM) and while I'm not religious I wasn't about to not go with it. It's not like you've just branded yourself religious it's just about ...not making an ass of yourself I guess.

But isn't this something you agreed to by going with the trip? If not ask before going?

They didn't even let us know this would be happening until today, and the trip is tomorrow. I let my teacher that myself and some other students weren't agreeing with it. They gave me short notice it would be happening, we gave short notice we didn't agree. I don't know how this is going to turn out.

It sounds to me you're more interested in seeking confirmation than advice. If you're determined to stand outside to avoid wearing a skullcap, you can always do that, but you should not expect that atheists will all agree with your judgement. Meanwhile you should consider that you'll be creating a complication for your teacher, who will have to keep in mind that you've separated from the group and may have to explain why her student is standing outside.

 

[HardkorSB]

That's preposterous!
Next they will make you wipe your feet before you go in.
This cannot continue!

Most likley you won't need the hard hat in a "visitor" scenario

Actually, you're required to wear it as soon as you enter the site, no matter who you are.

Care to explain your opinion instead of the sarcasm?
And what I think he's saying is that if there were going to be visitors in a construction site, they would only be going to visit the places where it was safe enough to not have to wear one, but I see your point.

My opinion is that it's just a skullcap. They're not making you pray or anything. Plus, it's kind of part of the whole experience, isn't it? If it's such a problem for you to wear it then don't go.

 

[Laser Priest]

You are the visitor. They are calling the shots. You can choose not to visit. They honestly feel can't let you in without the hat. This is not a matter of imposing their religion on the world at large [like the absence of legal abortion in Ireland, for example], but a matter of doing so in their own home, so to speak.

This.

Say you're the guest in a house. The host doesn't want you preforming dark rituals on the kitchen table. That might be part of your daily schedule; you might just love rituals on the kitchen table, but the host does not, so the polite thing to do is keep the ritual knife tucked away until you get home.

 

[TacticalAssassin1]

WALL-O-TEXT INCOMING. Apologies.

I do respect their beliefs. I just don't want to take part in the tradition of wearing a yarmulke when I go there to learn about it. I believe I'm being quite mature and reasonable. You're the one who is claiming people are immature arseholes.
Just because I say I'm an atheist, doesn't mean that I have no beliefs in religious matters. One of my beliefs is that people should respect others. You obviously have a problem with doing that, and if you're not willing to respect my opinion then I have no further business with you.

Okay, allow me to put this in to simple terms so I can get my point across.

Their beliefs are that NO MALE should enter without wearing a kippah.

You a male, wish to enter without wearing a kippah.

Ergo you are not respecting their beliefs by refusing to wear one.

It's your right to choose not to go in, but it is not in your right to infringe on their beliefs by entering without wearing a kippah.

Would you enter a mosque with your shoes on left foot first?
It's the same thing, it is a sign of disrespect.

I understand that. I have no intention of going in without wearing a kippah. Because I know that would be disrespectful. I understand that, I just want to wait outside. If that makes me seem like a jerk, then so be it, I honestly couldn't care less.

Dude, it's just a yarmulke (skullcap? seriously?). Just put the damn thing on and participate! If you're worried that it's going to change you, then you're beliefs are rather fragile to begin with. It seems like you're raising a stink for no reason.

Trust me, as long as it's not a super-orthodox service, you'll soon forgot that you even have it on: you'll be too busy singing.

My English teacher called it a skullcap, so I just decided to use that name for it.
I know it's not going to change me. That's not the point.
And no, I highly doubt I'll be singing.

Okay, I posted hastily, but I'm still confused: Are they making going into the synagogue mandatory?

If you are being forced to participate in a religious event or observe a religious ceremony, then yes, that is nonsense, and they have no right to make you do it, so please raise a stink.

But if however it is not mandatory, then I don't see what the problem is. Either don't do it, or just put it on and go in. I was assuming they're just asking you to participate, and you're being obstinate for no good reason.

I'm not actually sure if going into the synagogue is mandatory or not, but the excursion itself is. I have no idea what they're planning to do in there, but it is probably a religious ceremony of some sort. My teacher said to the class today "You're all senior students, so I hope you are all grown up about this and don't make a fuss" and I'm inclined to think that this will count as 'making a fuss' even if I do it as discreetly as possible.

Besides which, I'd imagine that your school has the occasional church service, and that non-christian people have to put up with that, and a lot more frequently than you're going to be doing this.

Actually no, my school never engages in religious activities of that sort. It's an Australian school, and we Australians aren't actually that religious, and I'm pretty sure that religion and government is meant to keep separate anyway.

 

[Bobbity]

Besides which, I'd imagine that your school has the occasional church service, and that non-christian people have to put up with that, and a lot more frequently than you're going to be doing this.

Actually no, my school never engages in religious activities of that sort. It's an Australian school, and we Australians aren't actually that religious, and I'm pretty sure that religion and government is meant to keep separate anyway.

Really? I'm at an Australian school too, and I have to put up with sermons, hymns and prayer three times a week. It drives my dad up the wall

Anyway, what does it matter? You can probably just have a good laugh about it, afterwards.

/edit
Screwed up the quote :S

 

[TacticalAssassin1]

Besides which, I'd imagine that your school has the occasional church service, and that non-christian people have to put up with that, and a lot more frequently than you're going to be doing this.

Actually no, my school never engages in religious activities of that sort. It's an Australian school, and we Australians aren't actually that religious, and I'm pretty sure that religion and government is meant to keep separate anyway.

Really? I'm at an Australian school too, and I have to put up with sermons, hymns and prayer three times a week. It drives my dad up the wall

Anyway, what does it matter? You can probably just have a good laugh about it, afterwards.

/edit
Screwed up the quote :S

Yeah, it's just a regular high school. And yes, true. I've sort of exhausted myself on this forum anyway, might not bother standing my ground too much if they're insistent. It'll piss me off though, if they absolutely force it upon us.
Anyways I'm going to go play some cod, to get the frustration out. Feel free to pm me if you want. I'll be back on later anyway.

 

[MmmFiber]

You haven't said why you object. And I'm willing to bet it's not for as good a reason as you think it is. I did tons of stupid rebellious shit in high school that was ultimately meaningless but I told myself I wasn't going to conform and was going to stand up for what was right. But in the end most of it was dumb. And sorry to say this one probably is too. You're not being asked to take part in a religious ceremony, you're being asked to be respectful by keeping your head covered.

This.

If they are Orthodox, it would be respectful to wear it. And the only reason for you to go and then refuse to wear the cap(however politely) is to make a statement. It's just the hormonal stage that testosterone is pumping into your system, authority is to be damned, and not bending on your opinions is tantamount to validating your personal place in society. A lot more effective ways exist to do that. Ways that people will respect.

 

[the clockmaker]

Understanding does not come from external observation, it comes from participation. If wearing the cap seriously offends you, politely appologise to the Rabbi and ask to remain outside.

If, however, you actually want to understand the Jewish faith and tradition, put the cap on and take part.

This is not a complex situation.