Religious Freedom

[Snotnarok]

I wore a yamaka for my friends barmitzva (I'm aware I butchered this sentence but spell check isn't helping and it's 5:10 AM) and while I'm not religious I wasn't about to not go with it. It's not like you've just branded yourself religious it's just about ...not making an ass of yourself I guess.

But isn't this something you agreed to by going with the trip? If not ask before going?

They didn't even let us know this would be happening until today, and the trip is tomorrow. I let my teacher that myself and some other students weren't agreeing with it. They gave me short notice it would be happening, we gave short notice we didn't agree. I don't know how this is going to turn out.

Well either just go with it and not care about what just transpired, or get all upset over something you can't do anything about till tomorrow.

If this is really forcing you to go there you could just go to a guidance councilor (or whatever is on hand) and discuss how this is just not something you're comfortable with.

Honestly I think you're worrying over nothing, I did it for my friend already, yes I was bored as hell because I didn't understand things that were said, but I learned about his religion and how itchy the hats can be. Seriously, unless they strap you to a chair and force you to sign papers you're good.

 

[Gigano]

If it conflicts with your (lack of) beliefs, don't do it.

If you have chosen a rule for yourself that you do not wish to participate in religious activities, why on earth would that rule deserve any less respect than their chosen beliefs? Though of course one of the benefits of atheism is that it allows for non-dogmatism and flexibility as well if one choose it.

Personally, I wouldn't really mind putting on some weird clothing item to see what they were up to. I always wondered whether their current sermons contains the same ethically questionable statements on stuff like homosexuality etc. the Old Testament does.

 

[jackpipsam]

I would stick to your guns and say no

 

[iamthe1]

Dude, it's just a yarmulke (skullcap? seriously?). Just put the damn thing on and participate! If you're worried that it's going to change you, then you're beliefs are rather fragile to begin with. It seems like you're raising a stink for no reason.

Trust me, as long as it's not a super-orthodox service, you'll soon forgot that you even have it on: you'll be too busy singing.

My English teacher called it a skullcap, so I just decided to use that name for it.
I know it's not going to change me. That's not the point.
And no, I highly doubt I'll be singing.

Okay, I posted hastily, but I'm still confused: Are they making going into the synagogue mandatory?

If you are being forced to participate in a religious event or observe a religious ceremony, then yes, that is nonsense, and they have no right to make you do it, so please raise a stink.

But if however it is not mandatory, then I don't see what the problem is. Either don't do it, or just put it on and go in. I was assuming they're just asking you to participate, and you're being obstinate for no good reason.

I'm not actually sure if going into the synagogue is mandatory or not, but the excursion itself is. I have no idea what they're planning to do in there, but it is probably a religious ceremony of some sort. My teacher said to the class today "You're all senior students, so I hope you are all grown up about this and don't make a fuss" and I'm inclined to think that this will count as 'making a fuss' even if I do it as discreetly as possible.

Either way, it comes down to you:

If it's mandatory, then it shouldn't be. Seriously, it sounds borderline illegal via separation of church and state. Your teacher should not have arranged this excursion if participation in a religious ceremony is required, more so if it will affect your grade. But only you can decide if it's worth the trouble to protest. It will be frowned upon for a variety of reasons.

If it's not mandatory, then make your choice. Wearing a yarmulke it not going to affect your worldview, so my advice is just do it. But if don't want to, that's cool to.

Find out if it's mandatory, then I would advise that you approach your teacher with your concerns if it is. But you will likely be intimidated to drop it. At that point, try to gracefully refuse or raise a fuckin' stink. That's on you.

 

[EradiusLore]

im not sure religious and freedom are two words that should go together. and no you shouldnt be expected to participate in religious rituals.

 

[RyQ_TMC]

*snip*

I understand it's already quite a long thread, and several different opinions have been voiced, but maybe some of my past experiences will help with perspective.
First of all, the most important thing here is that being religious doesn't cause anyone to think right off the bat that everyone outside their group is either conversion fodder or a lost cause. In cases such as this (entering a place deemed holy), expecting you to conform to some ritualized practices is exactly the same as your school expecting you to wear formal clothes to your graduation. You show your respect for their customs, but not one of them would expect you to start memorizing the Shema.
I've visited temples of a number of faiths in my life, and every time I made a point of doing whatever was required of me. So yes, I did wear a kippah in a synagogue and took care not to turn my back on the altar in an Eastern Orthodox church. What those experiences gave me was an interest in getting to know their associated cultures, making them more tangible than the TV images which had been my only contact with them before. I never had a slightest interest in converting, but I feel enriched by the experience.

So I guess the TL;DR version is: Don't fear the unknown. If a museum prohibits taking photos, do you also refuse to enter one for fear of being forced to adopt a set of rules?

 

[GraveeKing]

I don't think you're joining in so much as just respecting their beliefs.
Imagine it like people dressed nearly naked on a beach in a Muslim or other religious country that rather you dress fully. It's not asking you to join in at all, it's just the polite way of saying 'please respect that this is what we want you to do so we're not offended'.

Of course you have your own freedom and you don't have to do anything if you don't want to, but it is kind of rude in my view to just say 'nope not having any of that you can't tell me what to do!' and wait outside.
If I were you I'd just bear with it, they're not asking you to pray or anything and they've got to respect your beliefs as much as you respect theirs. If you feel you don't want to do anything just don't do it, they can't force you to pray to their god or anything so don't look at it as joining in.

 

[James13v]

its not that its an inconvenience, its more the principle of the thing

So do you object to being forced to wear a decent shirt and pants in a nightclub?

Polite refusal to conform to a belief structure is in no way disrespecting their traditions. The Jewish faith is, in my experience, one of the more understanding paths out there. Being forced to wear the cap is like being forced to take communion in a cathedral if you aren't Catholic. I personally am mostly atheistic in practice, but I have studied religions and toured many different faith's places of worship. I've never been turned away because I wouldn't wear the cap or take communion or go to confessional, etc.

Basically, if it infringes on your own personal belief structure, refuse politely. Manners, as with all people, are the key.

That's a terrible analogy. They won't let you take the host unless you go through all the rituals and stuff beforehand. And admittadly, I don't even know the point of the skullcap, but it doesn't seem to have anything to do with "comforming to belief" You don't even have to stand up to get the host if you don't want. You can just sit there.

Really, mate? Comparing a religious place of worship to a nightclub? Haha. No further comment.

They are essentially the same thing. Both are social areas for specific groups of people. These groups are selected and allowed to attend by the owners of the establishment. If the Pope change the dress code for churches to night-club dress, a lot of church attendees would be wearing nightclub dress.

 

[10BIT]

we are studying "Maus" by Art Spiegelman.

Awesome! I enjoyed that book immensely; I wish the school I went to allowed us to study Maus. Are you investigating any particular theme or are you just having a general overview at the moment?

On Topic: you're well within your rights to refuse to wear a kippah/yarmulke/skullcap, no school should force a student to wear religious garb.

It annoys me how many people in this tread either a) believe respecting a person's belief requires joining in with their rituals or b) use ad hominem and say that you're just an uppity teen looking to rebel

It's people with your attitude that make the rest of us look like arseholes.

If you don't want to look like an arsehole, maybe you should stop belittling others for having different opinions.

Their beliefs are that NO MALE should enter without wearing a kippah.

Can you provide a source for that, please? My google searches into this matter states no JEWISH male rather than all males. For a non-jewish male, the kippah is entirely optional, though highly recommended if you wish to partake in one of the rituals.

 

[moretimethansense]

we are studying "Maus" by Art Spiegelman.

Awesome! I enjoyed that book immensely; I wish the school I went to allowed us to study Maus. Are you investigating any particular theme or are you just having a general overview at the moment?

On Topic: you're well within your rights to refuse to wear a kippah/yarmulke/skullcap, no school should force a student to wear religious garb.

It annoys me how many people in this tread either a) believe respecting a person's belief requires joining in with their rituals or b) use ad hominem and say that you're just an uppity teen looking to rebel

It's people with your attitude that make the rest of us look like arseholes.

If you don't want to look like an arsehole, maybe you should stop belittling others for having different opinions.

Their beliefs are that NO MALE should enter without wearing a kippah.

Can you provide a source for that, please? My google searches into this matter states no JEWISH male rather than all males. For a non-jewish male, the kippah is entirely optional, though highly recommended if you wish to partake in one of the rituals.

Source?
How about the OP?

He flat out stated that they would be required to wear one so in this particular synagogue at least it would appear to be mandatory.

EDIT And I'm belittleing him for making a massive deal out of wearing a fucking hat.
If he is an atheist as he says it would take absolutely no sacrifice on his part and he seems to be doing it for the sole purpose of being obstannant.

 

[Zay-el]

Tomorrow, my school is taking myself and a few dozen other students to a Jewish museum. I'm totally fine with this, and have no problem accepting other peoples views and opinions. However, my English teacher today told the class that we would be visiting a synagogue, and that every male visitor would have to wear a skullcap. I have no problem with their beliefs, but as soon as they try to make me join in, that's where I draw the line. I'm fine with waiting outside if that's what it takes, and so are most of my friends (the ones that are even bothering to attend, anyway), but I expect that the teachers are going to force us to go with it. I know I'm the visitor, and I'm expected to join in and such, but this is compulsory and I'm not a religious person and do not wish to participate in religious activities. It's against my beliefs.

Do you think I'm in the right here? Or do you think I should just 'man up' and deal with it?
Discuss?
[sub] No flame wars please.[/sub]

This is not a question of religion or anything. This is basic respect. If you feel that your head is going to melt because of it, then don't go at all. I really don't get as to why people feel like religion other than their own(or lack of) is going to totally corrupt them, if they dare to pay respect to it.

I'm an Atheist and I spent 5 years in a Christian high-school, had a great time with good people and guess what, whenever we had a sermon, I attended it! I was bored, I was tired, it was long, but I attended it, because it didn't kill me and it was the least I could do in return for the very good education I got there.

When you go around, announcing that you would like to visit it, but not show the minimal amount of respect, I'm not going to symphatise with you at all.

 

[Nielserik]

In this case, wearing the tiny hat is a symbol of respect to the god they worship (I'm an atheist myself, no hate intented). So if you want to enter, I think it's perfectly reasonable that you wear it, not to respect the god, but to respect the people who worship him.

However if you don't want to do this, I think your teacher should allow you to stay outside.

 

[Vrach]

You have the freedom to say no. Whether you wish to use it, it's up to you.

 

[nyaman]

I think people don't quite get the whole wearing the skull cap deal. It's not a statement of "I believe in this God," it's not forcing you to take part in a ritual. It would better be equated to removing a hat when you walk into a church or not showing cleavage in a mosque. It's not polite to ask not to wear the skull cap, it's actually kind of offensive to assume you should be able to walk in without it. Not wearing it would be you saying "I don't respect the importance and sanctity of this building." In the end, it's not a big deal, it's simply showing respect for the establishment. I say you should just wear the thing and be done with it. Hardly impacts your life.

 

[Smooth Operator]

Religion has nothing to do with it, it's just common courtesy that you abide by the house rules when visiting.

If you visit my house there will be rules I want you to keep, and if you don't want you stay outside, you can always say no.

 

[Brinnmilo]

I reckon the school would make exception if members of your group were of a conflicting religious belief, eg Hindu or Muslim, and I think your beliefs warrant equal respect.

 

[10BIT]

Source?
How about the OP?

He flat out stated that they would be required to wear one so in this particular synagogue at least it would appear to be mandatory.

EDIT And I'm belittleing him for making a massive deal out of wearing a fucking hat.
If he is an atheist as he says it would take absolutely no sacrifice on his part and he seems to be doing it for the sole purpose of being obstannant.

He never stated it was the synagogue that enforced the rule. I assumed that it was the teacher being over-cautious when trying to respect the jewish traditions. You could be right that this synagogue enforces all males to wear the kippah, but I still have yet to see any evidence this is true.

A kippah is more than just "a fucking hat", it is a religious symbol showing that you consider yourself a servant of Yahweh. Even if it was just "a fucking hat", your belittling still makes you look like an arsehole.