I have to admit, I was a little worried about Star Wars being arbitrarily progressive. But Force Awakens is definitely not a SJW movie. I was actually in disbelief at how nice Rey was. Feminist heroes are arrogant assholes. The whole first half of the movie I was waiting for Rey to start acting like an asshole, but she never did. She even saved a male characters life without being even the slightest bit of a gloating, arrogant ass about it. Also, I dont recall Finns race ever being mentioned. No whining about how "dark skin" is a burden in the first order. This is definitely not a SJW film.
Yeah, I kinda gotta agree with Something Amyss here. And what the Hell is a Feminist Hero? I haven't heard that one ever. Unless you're willing to provide an example, I'm calling BS on your post.
Though, I do agree that the movie never made a person's race or sex into a plot point or something that defined their character. Which is a good thing. Race and sex are pretty arbitrary things and not really worth being considered a character trait. Unless we're talking about a movie like Django Unchained race and sex shouldn't really be too important. And it's obvious that in the Star Wars universe, those things hold no weight.
Still loved Rey objecting every time Finn took her hand, though.
Fine. Though this leaves a bit of a bad taste in my mouth. I don't dislike you or completely disagree with you from what I see on these forums. So don't treat me like an enemy.
There is no substance to discuss. They're patently ridiculous, and merit ridicule. Your attempt to salvage their reputation notwithstanding. Additionally, I'm not sure that casual mockery constitutes "hatefulness" and "vehemence", although I might be missing the post you are referencing. As you're currently directing this hand-slap at the entire thread, I'll just assume you mean everyone posting in it is "hateful and vehement" for laughing at the worthies on RoK. If this is the case, I find your perspective inexplicable, but I cannot stop you from expressing it.
To be honest, they're bad - but a lot of the people on this thread (not all) are being worse. A lot of what gets on the site is either straight crap or stuff I don't agree with. But not all. Writing them all off as sexist cranks doesn't help matters. You want to debate them on the issues, not feed their persecution complexes. Don't care either way? Ignore them! It's easy!
(And on a related note, 'misogyny/misogynist' is just as much of a snarl word.)
There is no substance to discuss. They're patently ridiculous, and merit ridicule. Your attempt to salvage their reputation notwithstanding. Additionally, I'm not sure that casual mockery constitutes "hatefulness" and "vehemence", although I might be missing the post you are referencing. As you're currently directing this hand-slap at the entire thread, I'll just assume you mean everyone posting in it is "hateful and vehement" for laughing at the worthies on RoK. If this is the case, I find your perspective inexplicable, but I cannot stop you from expressing it.
See above; I can't stop you from being dismissive and glib, but it's not going to help. I wasn't directing a 'hand-slap' at the whole thread, just trying to inject some perspective. You (or anyone) can point and laugh at the site (and I myself do that sometimes), but if you really want to neutralise the venom, you're going to have to talk to them. I've seen the movie, and I don't think it's the least bit SJW; also, I was very annoyed that the review didn't have a spoiler warning. So I read some of it, left the rest until I'd seen the movie, and disagreed with the review. Simple.
And the claim they cost the film money is ludicrous from any angle, full stop. Even I don't disagree with that.
Persecution complexes are the province and responsibility of the people holding them. There is no maxim that suggests censure always results in a worsening of behavior.
THM said:
And on a related note, 'misogyny/misogynist' is just as much of a snarl word.
It can be employed as such, but it's also a long established and widely employed word used to describe a behavior or system of belief. It's not a flattering term, but language is full of unflattering designations. It's not a question of the word itself, but rather how it is employed.
I'm also not sure why it's being brought up at this juncture, as I didn't level that specific charge (although I'm quite confident it's not unwarranted in the case of RoK), nor did I previously use the term "snarl word" in this thread.
THM said:
If you really want to neutralise the venom, you're going to have to talk to them.
I think you'll find that highly polarized individuals seldom respond to discourse, and attempting to shift or remedy their beliefs will frequently result in them becoming more calcified. Additionally, it is the responsibility of all adults to educate themselves and think critically, not the responsibility of those around them to do the leg work for them while engaging their prejudices.
THM said:
I've seen the movie, and I don't think it's the least bit SJW
It's entirely SJW, and also not SJW in the slightest, because SJW is a colloquialism less than five years old that originated as a one-size-fits-all pejorative. You'll have a hard time finding two people who agree on the definition. At this point it's become a term that generates far more insight into the people employing it than the people it's being aimed at.
THM said:
And the claim they cost the film money is ludicrous from any angle, full stop. Even I don't disagree with that.
Any disgruntled customer can hypothetically cost a business or a product money. You're never going to please everyone. For a mass market product like Star Wars, it becomes a question of identifying what demographics you want to appeal to and which you are prepared to antagonize. If I was Kathleen Kennedy and attempting to figure out who to fashion my new 4 billion dollar IP to appeal to, I'm not sure RoK would be high on my list.
Yeesh. And RoK is the one being accused being reactionary and hateful.
It's an opinion site, nothing more; very few of the writers there act like what they post is gospel, even the site's creator. Feel free to disagree with anything (and everything) that's on there...but why the vehemence? It's a website, at the end of the day - nobody's either forcing you to visit, or take a word of it seriously. And to be honest, sometimes they do bring up subjects that are worth debating about.
OT: I don't take this particular article the least bit seriously. I mean, there's an article on the site at the moment espousing a September 11th conspiracy theory that's just...insane.
The objection of the original article about Force Awakens being SJW is centered around (IIRC) the fact that Raye is a super-powered 'grrl-power' Mary Sue character (because vagina), and that Finn is a 'beta (male) orbiter' of Raye - i.e., he's basically useless, contributes nothing, and spends most of the story sniffing around Raye's skirts. They tie that in to wider concerns about the feminisation (SJW-isation) of Hollywood, and that's about it. They also mention JJ Abram's remark about casting with regards to race (the 'whitest room in history' or whatever it was).
I have to say that the charge of Raye being a Mary Sue (at least partially) is something I agree with - but NOT because of the reasons RoK bring up. She did seem to 'get' the Force unrealistically quickly, not to mention how she was suddenly so good with a lightsabre. I don't, however, think of Finn as 'beta' or useless - he's just someone that left everything he's based his life on, and is flailing around trying to find something else - 'course he's gonna be useless compared to people who know what they're doing.
Just thought that perhaps we should discuss the substance of the articles, rather than just fling shit around.
I still don't get it. What's all this noise about Force Awakens? I haven't seen the movie yet (and probably won't for a while- finance issues) but I heard some guy played by a white actor dies at the end... is that really it? Am I missing something? Does a woman drug a man and then rape him? And then lightsaber his balls off? What am I missing?
I still don't get it. What's all this noise about Force Awakens? I haven't seen the movie yet (and probably won't for a while- finance issues) but I heard some guy played by a white actor dies at the end... is that really it? Am I missing something? Does a woman drug a man and then rape him? And then lightsaber his balls off? What am I missing?
weird! I wonder when this happened. (an annoying bird chirps 2007 off in the distance)
Was never like that when I poked in on them, it was more like an anarchist country club, loads of anti-govs, lots of artists, painters, writers, all stripes like that. (the kinds of guys naive at social interaction and prey for gold diggers and the crazy) also a sizable SE asian population. Now it looks like any average Florida retirement home.
But then again, the last time I had contact with that world was in 2005...They seemed remote and niche enough they were safe from any sort of co-option. It certainly wouldn't have had anything to do with tea partiers back then.
I do recall hearing that a real big US name [http://queerfearscarewithatwist.blogspot.com/2012/03/tribute-to-randall-shake.html] died suddenly causing a lot of administrative crumbles and silent desertions.
Lilani said:
inu-kun said:
So basically it's like if I'll blame a <insert a popular feminist site/organization> in saying something like "we should emasculate all men" despite it being said by ?
Well, just because one joins in prayer for the German people to be freed and a puppet government overturned does not make one a nazi, see? They should be afforded the opportunity to throw off their occupiers just as we did Ceausescu!
Speaking of those fine fellows it's amusing they're a bit less ridiculous than their Avfm counterparts [http://8ch.net/pol/res/4323534.html]. In betwixt cursing and vulgarity there's at least some film discussion going on, and a couple fanboys of other Scifi opera franchises chiming in. Mary Sue/perfect hero seems to be the most common accusation, followed by stiff acting (for everyone)
It feels almost like the remaining living MRA Old Men are positively anti-intellectual. I know they'd definitely accuse the ones I know of being communist sympathisers or hippies or some other equally Mccarthy-ite era nonsense.
I wonder if I were to start posting "has anyone seen artfldgr/Verlch/Kevin J Biomech/Eli W/Jim Hardiman?" around /n/ and /pol/ would they show up. Ahh, if only I knew where they've all gone... All their blogs are empty, no contact info, etc
Something Amyss said:
Do you know how you kill a vampire? Any way you want, because vampires aren't real.
You make sure to always have a microwave turned on so you disrupt their pacemakers!
OH! I almost forgot. My (obviously) all-time favourite Return of Kings article, ever! [http://www.returnofkings.com/35343/the-rise-of-the-brony-and-the-death-of-the-american-man] And not just because of the subject...
But also who wrote it! [http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/defensive-knives-other-weapons/20099-practical-shortsword-method.html]
Quite literally, the right-wing's answer to Moviebob.
Oh.
Really? That's it? No castrations? Blimey, I knew that about the plot from the pictures of A woman and A person of most venerable colour running from things exploding in the background.
What vile progressiveness we live in, that the Force may choose to manifest in a post-puberty woman or that a galaxy made of trillions of life forms and a multitude of star systems very different from Sol may produce a dark-skinned lad.
Shame on you, Returning kings. Shame on you.
I still don't get it. What's all this noise about Force Awakens? I haven't seen the movie yet (and probably won't for a while- finance issues) but I heard some guy played by a white actor dies at the end... is that really it? Am I missing something? Does a woman drug a man and then rape him? And then lightsaber his balls off? What am I missing?
From what i gather it's for one, that two of the main characters are a woman and a black man. For the other it's basically just some jokes on some filmmaking tropes, like a scene were a man wants to come to the aid of a woman and the woman just deals with the problem herself before he can help.
There's really nothing "SJW-agenda" about it. The woman is quite a bit Mary Sue, in that she is just naturally good at everything, but that's more from her being a main character and less from her being some feminist icon or something.
Also, of course Star Wars is an SJW movie. "SJW" is a snarl word that means whatever you want it to. Therefore, pretty much anyone is justified in invoking the SJW bogeyman.
Yeah, I kinda gotta agree with Something Amyss here. And what the Hell is a Feminist Hero? I haven't heard that one ever. Unless you're willing to provide an example, I'm calling BS on your post.
Yes, feminist is an arbitrary term. They claim it means someone who wants equal rights for both sexes but that is what everyone wants. Only a few people actually self identify themselves with the word "feminists" however. A feminist is someone who believes that the majority of people dont want gender equality, meaning that those who do are in a select group who stand opposed the sexist majority. A "feminist hero" is one who fights this perceived sexism by pointing it out and struggling against it. If Rey was a feminist hero, she would proclaim that the major issue with the First Order is that men are brutish, oppressive, and have a need to control the galaxy. She would also point out how even her male comrades, like Finn, are guilty of oppressive misogyny that she must struggle to overcome.
Rey isn't a "feminist hero" because she isn't a feminist. She doesn't believe that she is oppressed because of her gender or that all men, even the good ones like Finn, are guilty of internalized misogyny.
I think you'll find that highly polarized individuals seldom respond to discourse, and attempting to shift or remedy their beliefs will frequently result in them becoming more calcified. Additionally, it is the responsibility of all adults to educate themselves and think critically, not the responsibility of those around them to do the leg work for them while engaging their prejudices.
This is one of the problems, and greatest failures, of the internet. It should have brought us together in understanding, and it has. But it has also allowed others to hide and find like minded idiots while ignoring that which would foster growth and understanding. I'd still say that the internet is a net positive in the long run, but it has negatives. Like allowing bullies new ways to attack people, including those they never would have been able to attack before.
BloatedGuppy said:
THM said:
I've seen the movie, and I don't think it's the least bit SJW
It's entirely SJW, and also not SJW in the slightest, because SJW is a colloquialism less than five years old that originated as a one-size-fits-all pejorative. You'll have a hard time finding two people who agree on the definition. At this point it's become a term that generates far more insight into the people employing it than the people it's being aimed at.
Admittedly there is truth in this. I will admit that I use the term, but pretty sparingly. I often see people being accused of being SJWs that I wouldn't use the term on (Jim Sterling, Moviebob, and even she who must not be named). No, I see people who do things like send a little girl home over a Wonder Woman lunch box [http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2015/08/31/wonder-woman-lunchbox_n_8065764.html] as being the type worthy of that label. And even then, I'd probably call them idiots first.
Watch out, that girl has a lunch box. She might eat lunch out of it in a violent fashion.
BloatedGuppy said:
THM said:
And the claim they cost the film money is ludicrous from any angle, full stop. Even I don't disagree with that.
Any disgruntled customer can hypothetically cost a business or a product money. You're never going to please everyone. For a mass market product like Star Wars, it becomes a question of identifying what demographics you want to appeal to and which you are prepared to antagonize. If I was Kathleen Kennedy and attempting to figure out who to fashion my new 4 billion dollar IP to appeal to, I'm not sure RoK would be high on my list.
I've certainly stopped doing business with certain companies. This isn't done to make a statement, nor do I think I personally hurt the company. Often I just don't like supporting them or they provide bad service or goods and that's my personal reason for avoiding them. McDonald's certainly hasn't complained that I haven't eaten there in over ten years.
Nor should they. Even if we take the figure RoK quotes as being accurate, that's a drop in the bucket for this movie. I seriously find all the supposed issues people have with this movie casting a black man and a woman as main characters disturbing. Then again, I already touched on why this sort of nonsense is allowed to fester.
cthulhuspawn82 said:
Yes, feminist is an arbitrary term. They claim it means someone who wants equal rights for both sexes but that is what everyone wants. Only a few people actually self identify themselves with the word "feminists" however. A feminist is someone who believes that the majority of people dont want gender equality, meaning that those who do are in a select group who stand opposed the sexist majority. A "feminist hero" is one who fights this perceived sexism by pointing out and struggling against the sexism of brutal, misogynistic men. If Rey was a feminist hero, she would proclaim that the major issue with the First Order is that men are brutish, oppressive, and have a need to control the galaxy. She would also point out how even her male comrades, like Finn, are guilty of oppressive misogyny that she must struggle to overcome.
Rey isn't a "feminist hero" because she isn't a feminist. She doesn't believe that she is oppressed because of her gender or that men, even the good ones like Finn, are guilty of internalized misogyny.
Sorry, buddy, but I'm calling BS on this one. I can't think of a single actual example of this. Especially not an example that wouldn't be done to show a character growing to accept men as not horrible and menacing. The closest I can think of is Wonder Woman and she often shows a respect for men, even if she has things to say about the World of Men.
Creating a character that would likely alienate half the people that could see it sounds like bad business anyway. Rey is a hero that happens to be female. Finn is a hero that happens to be black. Why is this sort of thing even worth bringing up?
Looking into the article the post sites, this is their math
Extended across our readership, with over 900,000 users accessing ROK between November 21 and December 21, this amounts to a potential direct impact of $4,219,456.54 (55% x $8.38 x 915,482) on total revenues. $8.38 is based on the average cinema ticket price in the US, which is now an all-time high.
<url=http://www.returnofkings.com/76356/star-wars-lost-4-2-million-because-of-our-reporting-that-identified-it-as-sjw-propaganda?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter>Source
Of course really they're being conservative, because in their words
This figure does not include those men who haven?t visited in the past month but know to stay clear away from Hollywood propaganda films thanks to our previous reporting.
and of course lets not forget they'll be costing Disney more money in the long run
The $4.2 million estimate also does not include future sales that will be surely lost from Star Wars DVD?s, collectibles, and other promotional tie-ins.
So clearly ROK is in this for the long game.
Return of the King was a pretty good movie (the hobbit theme always makes me tear up) but I don't see why they should be so gleeful over costing Star Wars a bit of money. I didn't think they were really in direct competition, being different genres and all.
Holy fuck their website is one of most depressing, yet hilarious collection of bullshit I've seen in quite a while. Well let's get these guys a nice shiny gold sticker.
All I can think to say here is that I love how ridiculous the "Anti-SJW" movement has become in that any work of fiction that acknowledges that women and ethnicities other than White actually exist is immediately labelled "SJW propaganda". Makes for entertaining reads like this.
Holy fuck their website is one of most depressing, yet hilarious collection of bullshit I've seen in quite a while. Well let's get these guys a nice shiny gold sticker.
Holy fuck their website is one of most depressing, yet hilarious collection of bullshit I've seen in quite a while. Well let's get these guys a nice shiny gold sticker.
(read the title)
I'm not reading that. No one should give these people clicks they are insane. even if it wasn't disrespectful towards woman it still spreads paranoia and distrusted to relationships. your significant other is not a dog that you should hit with a rolled up newspaper when you think they're doing something wrong
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