Sexism against men

[silent_noir_67]

youre highness potentially?

I think that society has programmed both men and women to try and fit into idealist roles that are entirely achievable. Men? be manly, take an interest in manly things and be extremely muscular. And you can't show emotion AT ALL cuz thats the weak thing to do.

Girls? be feminine and pretty. be extremely skinny try and find a man to love. you also need to act like you have no self esteem and toy around with guys.

I think that everything we've been brought up on (tv, movies, video games, books) really enforce these stereotypes. Therefore we all find those standards attractive and as a result judge all who don't fit under those conforms.

 

[Jake0fTrades]

And I stand by my point that just because its on a smaller scale, it can't be ignored. But I see what you're coming from.

I was about to come take your side until I saw you settled it peacefully.

Anyway, I agree with you, it pains me to see incredibly ignorant and aggressive "feminists" who more rightfully suit the definition of "supremacist."

 

[OtherSideofSky]

As usual, I blame the neuro-typicals for these idiotic social prejudices and how hard it is to have a decent discussion about them.

The problem that always comes up in these debates is that there are two fundamentally different types of sexism that we need to separate in order to get anything done.

1.) Institutional discrimination. Laws that explicitly favor one gender over another, imbalanced hiring and promotion practices, unequal pay, etc. This has mostly been corrected (note the word "mostly", neuro-typicals often seem incapable of understanding it) in the past several decades, and what remains (in the US, anyway) is primarily a bi-product of social prejudice rather than actual policy. This can cause problems for both men and women (fewer women in technology and executive positions, men have a hard time getting jobs working with children or touching people). This is not usually what people are talking about in thread like this.

2.) social discrimination. Prejudices held by the majority of society. These mostly take the form of stereotypes which are propagated through the mass-media. they often inform peoples' actions and can effect everything from hiring practices to the outcomes of trials. Both genders have advantages and disadvantages distributed about equally in this area, although problems for women receive the lions-share of media and academic attention (this is a side-effect of the movement to end the severe institutional discrimination against women, which produced the terminology with which we have these discussions). This is what people are talking about in these threads (if they aren't retarded).

I would also like to remind everyone that we high-functioning autistics, regardless of gender, face more and worse discrimination than either gender and receive absolutely no attention or sympathy for it.

That out of the way, I would like to say that a double standard absolutely exists in media, although it is sometimes in favor of men and sometimes of women, depending on the situation. The imbalance comes from the fact that people have trained themselves to be far more alert and sympathetic when the bias is against women.

To give a relatively recent example, last year there was an episode of the TV show "Castle" in which the running joke was that no one would rape a man because "all you have to do is ask", implying that no man would ever refuse sex. This would have never been allowed to air if the genders were reversed in that situation. As someone once said (I forget who it was or where I read it) "if you're watching a movie and a man rapes a woman, he's the worst bastard ever and Bruce Willis will put a bullet through his head in the third act. If a woman rapes a man, then you're watching a wacky romantic comedy". Regrettably, it's accurate far more often than not.

This is not to say that women don't also face serious problems as a result of double standards, just that they are not unique in being subject to them. The problem is further compounded by the fact that people tend only to notice discrimination against them or in favor of another, never discrimination against another or in favor of them.

Edit: Also, "feminism" is not a meaningful term in a contemporary context. What was once a semi-unified movement has fragmented and spread into a myriad of conflicting ideologies all claiming the same name (not unlike some religions). There is no longer any reasonable standard by which we can define what is or is not "feminist", so the term has become empty and subject to a range of interpretations to wide to be useful in anything but misdirection. Stop using it if you want people to understand you.

 

[The Dr0w Ranger]

Snip

What does this have to do with anything? I understand that stereotypes have been brought up, but try to link it to the thread in some way.

Because stereotypes largely underlie the sexist acts that we are debating.
The stereotype of men as poor parents has led to a bias against awarding men custody. A lingering lack of respect for women has left many fields male dominated.

To address the third world, the men there are justified in forcing sex upon women, in some cases. I knew a Kenyan woman who said you could be caned in the street for anything a man felt like caning you for. That isn't sexism, that is complete lack of human rights enforcement, and the physically superior have forced their will in the absence of a dominant legal body to change it. I don't mean that women aren't violently and disgustingly oppressed, its just not the same situation as first world countries and the solutions are wildly different.

Also, until my full 19 years of life as a straight white male is transferred directly to someones brain, I will continue to disregard claims of privilege. I am poor as dirt, the only help I get for college is grants, based on my(SMALL) income. I haven't been taunted in the streets or caned, but then again I don't know an American woman who has been either. In fact, if I look around, I know a LOT more men working 3 minimum wage jobs trying to make child support, than I do women who even get called names. Hell, the RM for my store? Female. 5/7 of my managers at all? Female. Bosses at previous jobs? ALL female. And I live in nothing like an enlightened area.

 

[inquisiti0n]

The point is, that kind of marketing is just the lowest common denominator. It's the sort of thing that tries define people by their most basic stereotypical perceptions. It unecessarily reinforces, tired and outdated gender rolls insulting viewers of both genders. It's saying to the male 'this product will you to impress girls, since that's basically the crux of your entire existence isn't it you lecherous fuck?' And to the women 'if you don't have a man who's going to help you lift that thing? Fix your car? Keep you company those lone winter nights? Your life isn't fulfilled unless your married by 30.' It tries to portray both sexes as being fundamentally useless on their own and only given any significence in finding somebody else to fuck. But whatever, a lot of you seem to spinning my words and labelling me a feminist, so fuck this thread. Adios.

Ok well this started off with me saying how portraying women as physically weaker isn't some negative, insulting stereotype. You made the assumption that a women unable to lift something heavy always leads to a man helping her out, leading to unrelated analysis of gender roles, but what I was talking about is how the portrayal of a female being weaker than a man isn't anything to get upset about. Oh, and it's not even something you see in the media that much. What's much more rampant these days are these ridiculous fantasies where some heroine fights off a bunch of guys who in real life would crush her (ie, Hanna, Salt, Haywire, etc).

Secondly, I never called you a feminist in attempt to discredit what you're saying (that would just be an alternate version of Godwin's law), but it's just obvious you are, so why hide it?

 

[Hitokiri_Gensai]

well, the sexism i see the most against men, is that lesbian or bisexual women, are seen as sexual objects, while bisexual or homosexual men are seen as disgusting.

I dont agree with it, but yeah.

 

[Panda Mania]

Ok, I am more one to argue the logic than the numbers, though I still aim for correctness.

First: We need to not equate Rape and Sexism, Rape is a violent crime carried out by violent(for the moment at least) people, on people weaker than them. Sexism is behavioral and in many cases, unrealized and unintentional. That isn't to say there aren't idiots out there with no interest in anything but themselves, thus motivating all sorts of ignorant acts, but as someone above pointed out, sometimes its as simple as offering unnecessary help.

Second: Sexist acts happen dependent on a situation. Guys lose in divorce court/custody disputes, and in a lot of societal pressures. Girls lose in the job market, and in a different set of societal pressures. I think neither gender has it better overall, or at least that no one can prove such, because the impact of an act is relative, based on many MANY factors.

Third: I'd like to posit that equality is a poor term in this case, because racism=/=sexism.
I'd say fairness would be better.
Why you ask? Because in some situations, unlike race, which has little effect on a person's capabilities, girls have(according to wiki) roughly 52 percent the upper body strength of guys and 66 percent the lower body strength of guys. Unlike race where the capabilities are entirely equal, sex actually has an effect.

Equality implies that the same value can be expected from both sides, in many ways, it cannot, look at all of the stupid little studies, or simply read the wiki on sexual dimorphism sometime. Fair means allowing for the inborn strengths and weaknesses of a gender, rather than simply ignoring them as equality must needs do.

Fourth: Numerous does not mean statistically significant, there are girls who hate shopping for example, my girlfriend included. But that doesn't doesn't negate the fact that MOST girls do like shopping, and aiming ads towards them, or portraying such characters on tv isn't going to die out because the 1/20 girls who genuinely defy that stereotype ***** a lot. Wake up call, the other 19 are all out spending money, responding to the ads and identifying with the characters, which means the stereotype will persist.
Some stereotypes are justified, I want to use my job as an example. At my Burger King, we are trained such that if someone orders a meal by number(#1=Whopper Value Meal, etc) we are to give them a small size meal, and with Coke, if the order is drivethru. Know why? Because we strive to get the food ready and to them by the end of 2.5 minutes,and despite the possibility that we will be wrong, asking the necessary questions takes too long. The 1/15 people who wanted a medium with DR. Pepper won't throw enough of a fit to make slowing the other 14 down worth it. Add the fact that people line up, compounding the time lost asking questions, and reasking if the order has multiple meals, and its far more useful to just assume. There are other factors but it remains true.
Sometimes the stereotype is right and the people who don't fit don't like it, but in some cases its better to accept and expect some people to accept the assumption than slog the rest into the muddy waters of DEALING with it, where true injustice can occur, rather than simple misinformation.

I like your point about the difference between equality and fairness. Men and women are certainly different physically (mentally? Erm, I'm just gonna avoid that debate ^^. This is why we have girls' and guys' soccer teams, why more men work in the construction industry, and why there are usually more girls on the gymnast team in school than guys (well...at least there are in my school). Let us not staunchly insist that "OMG the sexes are equal in EVERY SINGLE WAY" as some alarmingly misinformed feminists do, but recognize the differences and make room for both dissimilarities and same worth(s?) in our practices.

 

[neonsword13-ops]

Most people really don't care for sexism against men. Which I can understand. Men were sexist against women for more than 50 years.(And counting)

Female sexism has had a much longer and stronger effect on the world then male sexism has today.

 

[reiem531]

Right, so when an article comes up about a woman who was raped, I suppose I'll just post that picture. What? I'm a horrible person for saying that? Deal with it.

Firstly, men are not raped in nearly the same numbers as women. Secondly, that was totally fucking capricious and wildly extreme. I was merely saying that sexism against men really is practically a non-issue and that you and many others like you are making way too big of a deal out of something that occurs far more infrequently when compared to the figures of discrimination of literally every other minority there is. What the hell did any of that have to do with rape?

40% of domestic abuse is committed against men. And yes, obviously rape is not the same thing as domestic abuse, but the point remains. No one gives a shit that men are abused almost as much as women.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/sep/05/men-victims-domestic-violence

 

[Gralian]

It's saying to the male 'this product will you to impress girls, since that's basically the crux of your entire existence isn't it you lecherous fuck?' And to the women 'if you don't have a man who's going to help you lift that thing? Fix your car? Keep you company those lone winter nights? Your life isn't fulfilled unless your married by 30.' It tries to portray both sexes as being fundamentally useless on their own and only given any significence in finding somebody else to fuck.

I'm not sure if this is on topic or what but i just wanted to say that the above is heavily reinforced to the point of nausea. This makes me worried because as a 20 year old male who was never stood a chance in the dating game and has gone beyond caring about "go hump anything with a pulse like normal people" and is simply content to let himself be himself without having to hunt for women like a caveman i feel like society is telling me that i'm a failure - both in terms of being a human being that is a part of society at large and a failure of my gender - for not conforming to that premise, that all men do is trawl for ass and buy shiny things to impress women who are supposedly, according to such media, so bloody weak willed that they'll be impressed by said shiny thing and lose all sense of free will and logic and will submit to your manly maliness. Have you seen those fucking Lynx adverts? "Just spray this crap on your body and women will surrender themselves to you!" The representation of men and women in such marketing makes me sick to the core. I'm really fucking sick of gender stereotypes and expectations being symbols of validation. I don't give a shit about gender and i wish it would just fuck right off, to be frank. So much focus on socially constructed MANLY MAN or GIRLY GIRL values and expected aspirations. In many ways, i don't even identify with either one. I reject both notions that you should either be a sex fiend or find a partner to "settle down with" to make your life "complete, have meaning and garner respect from your peers". I'm sorry, i'm not even sure where i was going with all that. The whole gender debate just really grinds my gears. I wish the world would get over itself.

I think that society has programmed both men and women to try and fit into idealist roles that are entirely achievable. Men? be manly, take an interest in manly things and be extremely muscular. And you can't show emotion AT ALL cuz thats the weak thing to do.

This is a nice little example of the bullshit i so fervently reject. I've never once understood why the hell i'm expected to be able to do manual labour or take in interest in cars and sport just because i have bollocks. Nor do i understand why emotion is so taboo. Never did understand it as a kid and damned if i understand it now. Emotion is a part of the human condition. One can simply suppose to deny it is to feed some sort of God complex that the male sex seems to have of itself; that they are inherently superior and above succumbing to something like emotions. Because, you know, those magical giblets again. What a load of bull.

I think that everything we've been brought up on (tv, movies, video games, books) really enforce these stereotypes. Therefore we all find those standards attractive and as a result judge all who don't fit under those conforms.

It's interesting you should mention that. Personally, i've always been attracted to women who are really... different. Both in terms of appearance and personality. Women who are, to use a very crude term, 'crazy'. Women who are wild, unpredictable, confidant, thoughtful, who have no compunction about speaking their mind, who may look like they stepped out of a Tim Burton movie. Women who essentially rail against all the aforementioned stereotypes. Come to think of it, that may reflect my opinions about how much i hate "gender" as we know it today. The image of that 1950's housewife with a "normal" haircut in a boring apron and a dishonest smile from ear to ear while holding a pie for the husband who is equally boring and smiling dishonestly is utterly abhorrent to me.

 

[Panda Mania]

As usual, I blame the neuro-typicals for these idiotic social prejudices and how hard it is to have a decent discussion about them.

The problem that always comes up in these debates is that there are two fundamentally different types of sexism that we need to separate in order to get anything done.

1.) Institutional discrimination. Laws that explicitly favor one gender over another, imbalanced hiring and promotion practices, unequal pay, etc. This has mostly been corrected (note the word "mostly", neuro-typicals often seem incapable of understanding it) in the past several decades, and what remains (in the US, anyway) is primarily a bi-product of social prejudice rather than actual policy. This can cause problems for both men and women (fewer women in technology and executive positions, men have a hard time getting jobs working with children or touching people). This is not usually what people are talking about in thread like this.

2.) social discrimination. Prejudices held by the majority of society. These mostly take the form of stereotypes which are propagated through the mass-media. they often inform peoples' actions and can effect everything from hiring practices to the outcomes of trials. Both genders have advantages and disadvantages distributed about equally in this area, although problems for women receive the lions-share of media and academic attention (this is a side-effect of the movement to end the severe institutional discrimination against women, which produced the terminology with which we have these discussions). This is what people are talking about in these threads (if they aren't retarded).

I would also like to remind everyone that we high-functioning autistics, regardless of gender, face more and worse discrimination than either gender and receive absolutely no attention or sympathy for it.

That out of the way, I would like to say that a double standard absolutely exists in media, although it is sometimes in favor of men and sometimes of women, depending on the situation. The imbalance comes from the fact that people have trained themselves to be far more alert and sympathetic when the bias is against women.

To give a relatively recent example, last year there was an episode of the TV show "Castle" in which the running joke was that no one would rape a man because "all you have to do is ask", implying that no man would ever refuse sex. This would have never been allowed to air if the genders were reversed in that situation. As someone once said (I forget who it was or where I read it) "if you're watching a movie and a man rapes a woman, he's the worst bastard ever and Bruce Willis will put a bullet through his head in the third act. If a woman rapes a man, then you're watching a wacky romantic comedy". Regrettably, it's accurate far more often than not.

This is not to say that women don't also face serious problems as a result of double standards, just that they are not unique in being subject to them. The problem is further compounded by the fact that people tend only to notice discrimination against them or in favor of another, never discrimination against another or in favor of them.

Edit: Also, "feminism" is not a meaningful term in a contemporary context. What was once a semi-unified movement has fragmented and spread into a myriad of conflicting ideologies all claiming the same name (not unlike some religions). There is no longer any reasonable standard by which we can define what is or is not "feminist", so the term has become empty and subject to a range of interpretations to wide to be useful in anything but misdirection. Stop using it if you want people to understand you.

*laughs* I like your style (that quote about Bruce Willis is the funniest thing I've heard all week). And you make very astute points about institutional discrimination and social discrimination, the latter of which is infinitely more complex and lands in the messy but fascinating field of "culture, gender, and sexuality."

I know this really isn't that kind of thread, but I feel like you deserve one of those "YOU WIN THREAD!" distinctions.

 

[Sariteiya]

I certainly feel there are huge double standards at work nowadays. Men are portrayed as stupid, boorish, violent and oversexed. Rape against men is funny, etc.

However, I really don't feel like men should feel these stereotypes are all women's fault. Consider that a lot of shows and media that perpetuate these views are produced by men or written by men. I think it's less of a "female conspiracy", and rather an unattractive habit of society in general.

but we aren't blaming women, were in hell did you get THAT?

A few of people here are blaming feminism. I'm not saying there aren't people who identify as feminists that perpetuate these stereotypes, but to say "Feminism is the cause of male double standards" is a pretty broad statement.

 

[Gunjester]

I agree on the whole, "Women deserve equality" and so forth, however the thread poster is missing the point. THERE ARE movies where men save the girl...ALL THE TIME.
Any action movie starring a male protagonist has been that.

However, I may agree with "real feminism" but I also agree femi-nazis should be burned at the fucking stake for all their sexist bullshit. For those who don't know, Femi-Nazis are the ones that say things like; "If women ruled the world there'd be no war." Or "The Y chromosome is useless, it's just an X chromosome that's missing something, therefore, men are nothing but incomplete women."
That second one is half true, but seriously go fuck yourselves.
Women have been fighting for equality and rightly deserve it, but don't forget who kept everyone fucking alive from the Stone Age to the first civilizations.
We are equal. EQUAL.

 

[geK0]

The thing that irks me off is that males have to pay more for car insurance than females (In Canada anyway) because statistically, they're higher risk drivers! Why is this acceptable?

 

[Booradlee]

Snip
...we could be so much better.

Hmmm... you seem to be a gentleman with both intellect and passion.

and I simply loved that last line (quoted above) of your impassioned speech.
Well said.

 

[Booradlee]

The thing that irks me off is that males have to pay more for car insurance than females (In Canada anyway) because statistically, they're higher risk drivers! Why is this acceptable?

Women often have to pay more for haircuts because they often ask for more, or simply have more hair.

This is equality being shared through Mathematics (or Statistics).

 

[Jodah]

How can a women rape a man, they wouldn't be har, and if they were it wouldn't be rape.

You do realize that exact argument was used in defense of male on female rape right? It was argued that if a woman did not fight back the entire time it was rape. Even if she knew there was no possibility of escape or was drugged she was expected to attempt to fight, if she didn't it was consensual.

 

[KAPTAINmORGANnWo4life]

Right, so when an article comes up about a woman who was raped, I suppose I'll just post that picture. What? I'm a horrible person for saying that? Deal with it.

Firstly, men are not raped in nearly the same numbers as women. Secondly, that was totally fucking capricious and wildly extreme. I was merely saying that sexism against men really is practically a non-issue and that you and many others like you are making way too big of a deal out of something that occurs far more infrequently when compared to the figures of discrimination of literally every other minority there is. What the hell did any of that have to do with rape?

Well, think about it this way: Legally, Western countries aren't sexist or racist anymore. Any country with a Western-style constitution, and the UK which kinda doesn't but still has an equivalent, has laws against discrimination. That means, on paper, feminist and racial interest groups should no longer be actively pursuing an agenda, but instead focusing on making sure anti-bigotry laws are upheld. Watchdogs, that is.

And nowadays, the level of tolerance and equality in society is unprecedented. Does that mean there is not bigotry? Of course not. Even the most progressive of countries still has some kinks to work out, and the fact that equality movements aren't even a century old means that society hasn't fully adapted yet. But, overall, the level of equality is unprecedented in contemporary history, which is where conflicts in perception come in.

Now that the notion of equality has been planted in the general psyche, those who were viewed as the oppressors, "White" Males, are not actively resisting the notion's growth; we simply want to ensure that what started out as movements in the right direction don't start infringing on us. We are fortunate in that we have the social standing and population that groups in the past simply did not, and it is not wrong for us to demand that equality stays as its name implies.

And while you're legally correct, there is not as much practical discrimination against "White" Men as there is towards non-"White" Men, there has been an increase of cultural degradation, and, in many cases, cultural contempt, directed towards "White" Males, which leads to stereotypes such as "Men are all horny and therefore it's not really rape", which is far more pervasive in art today than any female stereotype.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrvDhSB7GHk&feature=related

I'll fully admit that The Amazing Atheist is the reason why I'm aware of this video, but it perfectly illustrates what I'm talking about. The conduct of every woman in that video, even the one who meekly and half-heartedly points out the blatant sexism, is totally unacceptable. And this is on a major American television station with millions of viewers.

You ever try and balance a pencil on your finger?

Go get a pencil, but put it on your finger really lopsided (but don't let it fall).

Then try to adjust it to balance it out.

What happens? The pencil ends up leaning the other way, doesn't it? It's now unbalanced, but in the opposite direction.

And when you try and put it back, the same will happen.

After some deliberation, you'll finally have it balanced on your finger... but it'll always wobble to and fro.

Think of sexism like that. Women started on the harsh end of things. Right now, though we don't have it nearly as bad as they did, men have it kinda bad. Some people might call it "reverse sexism" even though that makes no fucking sense and they should be slapped. Soon enough, though, it'll balance out, but that inequality will always be there, even if it isn't obvious or huge. The scales will always wobble. We just need to learn to deal with it when it comes.

Borrowing that analogy, "White" Males have the incredible fortune of being able to ensure that the pencil doesn't lean towards the other side, and it is perfectly reasonable to want to prevent bigotry before it becomes pervasive.

 

[Booradlee]

We are equal. EQUAL.

I mentioned something on this before, but I don't really mind writing it again.

Feminism is supposed to empower women.
Which is necessary to a point. (in my opinion anyway)

Egalitarianism is a belief of thought that favors equality of some sort. Its general premise is that people should be treated as equals on certain dimensions such as race, religion, ethnicity, sex, political affiliation, economic status, social status, and cultural heritage.

 

[Zaverexus]

Yeah.
It's annoying.
/thread

No matter what you do there's always going to be a bias or prejudice of some sort, it's just part of how things are. Girls have dealt with being "sex objects", etc. Guys have dealt with being fumbling, lovestruck idiots, etc. Both sides should deal with it so long as it isn't causing any serious harm.