Sexism in gameplay
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For the record at no time did I say sexism doesn't happen, all I did was point out that its possibly a smaller issue then it's victims like to make it.Mid Boss said:
First of all though... To add to your list there are...
Futurama
Blade Trinity
True Blood
Return of The King
Merlin
Sanctuary
Andromeda
NCIS
Farscape
Wanted
Angel
Sin City
Scott Pilgrim Vs The World
X-Men 3
Kill Bill
Tomb Raider
Aliens Vs Predator
G.I. Joe
The Avengers
Vandred
Xena
Dr Who
Dollhouse
Lost Girl
Ultraviolet
Resident Evil movies
Dead or Alive (the movie)
The list goes on really... though what interests me is that you seem to be focused solely on fighting. While I will grant you that female action super stars are under-represented this is possibly because the majority audience of the hyper violence we call action is male and a guy is more likely to identify with a male lead, thus it making more sense solely in terms of marketing to have Male action stars.
You're indisputably correct though in pointing out that women more often then not lose fights in most media, or are chivalrously looked after. That being said men are over represented in violent crimes, jobs, hobbies... so possibly (and definitely not without exception) men are represented as being stronger and more combat capable then women because a majority of the time they are.
Then we get into the double (and often confusing) standards of Chivalry... is it still polite for a guy to open a door for a woman or is it just rude? How about hitting a woman, is that worse then hitting a guy? If so why? Does it matter if she threw the first punch?
There are legitimate cases of sexism out there, but complaining about how the media portrays shows women in fictional fights really doesn't help you, especially considering if they suddenly brought out an Iron Woman movie with Tania Stark and Peter Potts you'd just complain about how its just a guy cast as a woman and even more sexist then the original.
He tried to prove a point and he failed pathetically because whether you want to admit it or not, misogyny is a real thing and there's no need to make it up when there's already plenty to go round. If I wanted to look for misogyny in Dragon Ball, I could look at the early series where there's at least two incidents involving Bulme's tits every episode or that one character they awkwardly wrote in who only existed so people could comment on her tits and make fun of what an airhead she was.Aaron Sylvester said:
Super Princess Peach is blatantly misogynist because it perpetuates both the ridiculous notion that women have violent emotional outbursts while men don't and the notion that women use their emotions as tools to achieve their goals.
This looks like a question that I am uniquely qualified to answer... lets see if I can shed some light on this then.Mid Boss said:
The original 3 points that I made, were all true from a certain point of view. 18 is protected from Cell by Piccolo, Tien and Krillin with Piccolo and Tien fighting Cell so 18 can hide and escape, Krillin stays with her and prevents her from self-destructing. They are ultimately unsuccessful in their efforts to protect her, but they tried. Once Cell is forced to regurgitate 18 Krillin immediately rushes to her side and tends to her for the remainder of the battle (he wouldn't have done that for 17 so must have done it because she's a woman) Given the lack of other interaction action between them an arguement can be presented that she fell in love and then married her protector. Also the arguement that 8 is an android so can't get stronger is actually incorrect as she's technically a human-android hybrid and is capable of getting stronger as well as having babies. So if she's stronger then Piccolo and he fights Buu then it could be argued that the only reason 18 didn't was because she's a female.
Like I said its all a perspective... you can look at anything and twist it into a negative, or you can look at something and see a postive or even just something that is, it all depends on your point of view... doesn't anyone learn these things from Star Wars?
Indeed my point does seem to go over your head Judge, I was responding to a comment that Android 18 was remarkably non-sexist in anyway... so I pointed out ways that she could be seen as a sexist character. If you looked at circumstances from a certain perspective. I wasn't commenting on DBZ as a series, or anime as a whole, I mean you can't say that the fan-service is anything but spank bank material. For the record though misogny and sexism aren't the same thing. The examples you make are good examples of sexism in Dragon Ball, not mysogny, there's not hate just perverts.JudgeGame said:
Fighting is a great black and white example of sexism. Doesn't get bogged down and confused with femininity. As we've seen with Lightening, it's a murky area for some people.MagunBFP said:
.... No I think an Iron Woman movie would actually be pretty cool and I've never so much as hinted that that was the way I thought. You don't know me so don't try make assumptions in an attempt to insult me. Thanks.
I'm not getting into a debate over chivalry. It's dead.
"but complaining about how the media portrays shows women in fictional fights really doesn't help you"
The media is a reflection of what we think as a society. But, regardless, if we're suddenly moving from fictional fights, someone should have told me. Let's move to women in the military. Women have been active in two wars so far and have just now been approved, officially, for combat roles. Much to the ire of conservatives who believe that, even though several women have proven themselves in combat and won metals, and many have died in direct combat, they still aren't "fit" for front line combat. That they inhibit that essential bromance that develops between soldiers. Despite what those pesky little metals say, they just don't have the killer instinct that men have.
That women just aren't physically fit for combat. Man. I wish we had some sort of physical fitness test people had to pass before they got into the military. Apparently just because we already have one doesn't really mean anything.
Rapes are inevitable. Wow, really wish we had some sort of panel... like a military panel... that handled crimes like that that happen during combat. Man that would be nice. Oh we could train the women in hand to hand combat! That way they could fend off attackers. I can't believe the military doesn't train people in hand to hand combat.
Oh turn on Fox News. It's allll over conservative outlets and while watching it keep in mind it's a small issue possibly over blown by its victims.
And with that I'm out. I need sleep. Have fun.
Thanks that was an interesting quote, but I think Yahtzee was subtly wrong, what he was actually arguing is that the developers weren't misogynistic, but that's a different thing from whether the game is sexist or not.Aaron Sylvester said:
For example check out this Cracked article
http://www.cracked.com/article_20202_6-hilariously-failed-attempts-at-making-comics-more-diverse.html
These were people who were actively trying to increase diversity and combat racism/sexism etc, but that doesn't change the fact that having a flamboyant gay sourcerer with HIV is a bad idea.
And I'm fully prepared to believe the developers are just idiots and not women-hating or even sexist, but nevertheless a game that actively rewards you for accepting sex with a women who is offering it so that you don't leave her to burnt alive at the stake by a mob is sexist.
Lol it's a bit of a stretch to say that I have no meaning in my life just because I think this topic in general is stupid.JudgeGame said:
Yes fighting is a great example how with enough PR and special effects you could try to convince everyone that a 60kg unarmed woman can go toe-to-toe with a dozen well trained, big, muscled guys and not only win but come out of it without a scratch? Sure it looks cool but not very accurate.Mid Boss said:
Society is a reflection of society. Media is a reflection of marketing, you get shown what someone thinks will sell ad space or movie tickets. No one wants to see Bruce Banner hunted and victimised by the military in the Hulk, but how would they react if it was actually real?
But moving one... many of the people opposing women being involved in the front lines are concerned that the standards required will be lowered for women, and they're quite right if the physical stength and combat requirments are lowered to allow any women to meet the standards then the overall standards and effectiveness is reduced. If there's no change then physically there's no problem. Psychologically though I'm not qualified to comment one way or the other, and if you are neither trained or experienced in either psychology, or the conditions of front-line combat you're just as unqualified as I am, except you appear to believe in the "inter-changability" of the sexes, which I disagree with. Also with the number of woman either applying and most importantly qualifying for front line roles I would agree thats its probably a small issue hyped up as an example of the "terrible-misoginistic" military
So, pointing out we have no care about a topic that's been done to the point of everyone involved repeating themselves for the 30th time in 2 weeks is US showing we have an empty existence?JudgeGame said:
Your logic .... it's flawed.
I pointed out this was beating a dead horse in the hope that if someone else does happen to make a thread about sexism then rather than talk about games/situations that have already been covered they may try something new.
We didn't go out of our way just to come on a forum and point it out we were already here, browsing.
And no, I had nothing better to do. The kids were in bed, the wife was at work and it was 6am....
I don't care about sexism in gaming because 99/100, it's something really small that you have to dig deep to find and doesn't mean anything, and if it's not, it gives the game a little character. I admit I'm not the fondest when things are sexist towards me in a mean-spirited way, or against my sexuality, I think that I find myself laughing hardest when I watch movies, playing games, or watching shows where people are free to say things that aren't cool, aren't PC. If they're not done in an extremely distasteful way, I can really enjoy them. I recognize that those opinions aren't okay, but I still enjoy the content.
Moooostly it's just because people are nitpicking though.
Moooostly it's just because people are nitpicking though.
You can always look at things from another perspective, refusal to see something from a different point of view doesn't make your point of view correct, it just means you're incapable of reaching any agreement besides "agreeing to disagree" just is just lazy.JudgeGame said:
As for me not supplying sufficent detail to show you the possibility that things aren't as black and white as you think things are, well I'll get over it, its been a while since I've watched the Cell Saga and quite frankly I agree that 18 isn't a sexist character, but I'm aware that people see have a different perspective on things... hence our disagreement... you just made my arguement, cheers
Just because you have no interest in semantics doesn't make them anyless important, say what you mean or I'll assume you mean what you say. I'm not really sure that you know Akira Toriyama to really be able to say that he is a misogynist... certainly his body of work lacks anything that supports your claim. That is was childish and definitely sexist is definitley true, but it really just looks like I called you out on misogyny and you've created a hate and contempt that is very specifically not there.
Has misogyny gone away suddenly? No. In which case yes we are going to go over the same points until people learn not to be misogynists. This is for the benefit of those who don't understand that meanly stereotyping women is a bad thing and should be grateful for it.Rawne1980 said:
The ones who have the power to move the discussion along are the misogynists who refuse to allow change. It's regrettable and profoundly unjust but that's how the world works.
If we stop talking about this, we are solving nothing.
The character of Maron in the TV show did not come from Toriyama's pen, she isn't present in the original comics. Bulma's sexual harrassment is taken to ridiculous levels in the TV show, in the manga there are only a few instances and they aren't as rapey as in the show. There is fair chance any version you recall will have had these scenes censored anyway. This is kind of irrelevant to the discussion but I thought I would clarify for your benefit.MagunBFP said:You can always look at things from another perspective, refusal to see something from a different point of view doesn't make your point of view correct, it just means you're incapable of reaching any agreement besides "agreeing to disagree" just is just lazy.JudgeGame said:
As for me not supplying sufficent detail to show you the possibility that things aren't as black and white as you think things are, well I'll get over it, its been a while since I've watched the Cell Saga and quite frankly I agree that 18 isn't a sexist character, but I'm aware that people see have a different perspective on things... hence our disagreement... you just made my arguement, cheers
Just because you have no interest in semantics doesn't make them anyless important, say what you mean or I'll assume you mean what you say. I'm not really sure that you know Akira Toriyama to really be able to say that he is a misogynist... certainly his body of work lacks anything that supports your claim. That is was childish and definitely sexist is definitley true, but it really just looks like I called you out on misogyny and you've created a hate and contempt that is very specifically not there.
You seem to not understand that there is a difference between differing perspectives and lying. Your arguments aren't wrong because they are different to mine. They are wrong because they are based on fantasy. It's hard to believe this needs any explaining.
There is something about you calling me out on misogyny but most of that sentence is beyond intelligible.
For context, Goku is seen without his pants on 7 or 8 times, with his junk literally hanging out. In fact, Goku loses his trousers more often than they comment on Bulma's boobs. This is also the same series where when Goku tries to fall asleep in Bulma's lap he's baffled because she doesn't have balls. Do you REALLY think this is a strong candidate to imagine misogyny in? You could make a case it has a low opinion of men that barring Goku everyone else is too much of a pervert to ride the Nimbus. I mean hell, I could point out the only male characters in Sailor Moon are either flawlessly handsome or evil cross dressers because those are the only types of men who exist in that universe.JudgeGame said:
Seriously, if you want to comment on misogyny the New Tomb Raider, Twilight or Princess Peach but DRAGONBALL? Maybe its my pleasent existence but I don't tend to encounter much out and out misogyny in my day to life, gender stereotypes and sexism sure, but actual HATE? I dunno, maybe dealing with the whole race thing left me jaded. If it's still a pressing concern then by all means discuss it just... maybe a better example?
OT: Going for an off-kilter counter example (and bringing more flamebait) Dante in the new DmC. Imagine that opening sequence with a woman rather than a man and it becomes a lot more... yeah. I don't know if I'd say it out and out objectifies him as a lust object but he does seem designed to be a kind of sex symbol this time round (also a legitimate complaint about the game, kinda, though DMC3 Dante played the whole game with his abs on display)
EDIT: Late addition but before the reply, the fact it also opens with a threesome is preeeetty terrible as well, and this could probably be good fodder for a "what the hell, games, we're trying NOT to do this sexist bullsh*t" but isn't the case I'm making so here we gooooo
Just to cherry pick, as this reminded me of a previous argument I had with someone...lacktheknack said:
A modifier like that is arguably justified given the real world examples of pro athletes, etc... however it's usually poorly handled. The only one which seemed to do it right was some horrifically bad D&D type (board & dice) game some guy put on the internet whose name I can't even remember. Most of it was rightfully ripped a new one for its subject matter (horrific gory rape etc) and a crazy detailed and supposedly sexist stats system.
However, the way the gender modifier worked was simply to tweak your ultimate maxima and the limits of your initial roll for various stats. Which is, well, basically real life.
Even an average female athlete would kick the ass of three of me (out of shape early 30s guy) eight ways to sunday and not even break a sweat. But in a number of highlightable areas, the very best female athlete still loses - slightly - to the best male (and vice versa). Just because of genetic matters of skeletal and muscular structure, fat distribution, cardiovascular issues etc. They're both far, far better than either would ever need to be in nature, but each major model variant of human appears to max out better - and, on average, without training, sits slightly higher or lower - in certain areas versus the other.
(And, similarly, for mental matters as well as physical; the brain is a squishy, blood filled organ after all. Note that these are but slight differences, and you have to be aware of this fact, lest you end up as some crazy, discriminatory min-max obsessive like Candie in Django)
Basically, you have a slight dis/advantage (depending on choice) when doing the initial roll, but can still come out with reasonably high (or low) numbers depending on how the dice fall anyway - a strong woman and an agile man both of level 1 on the same team isn't out of the question - and in-between, depending on how you choose to level up (or train), it begins to make little difference until you hit the final level cap. By which point it only causes minor variation in just HOW hard you're kicking everyone else's ass.
A system that worked that way wouldn't be sexist, no more than it would be considered speciesist for providing similar but starker variation for the various "races" (elf, human, dwarf etc; you could at the extreme have a dwarf who's a little weaker but more graceful than a notably strong but clumsy elf teammate for example... again, for similar genetic reasons).
But normally it seems to work in a much blunter manner, in that setting "Girl = 1" in your config file means certain cliche stats take an automatic no-matter-what 20% hit, and a smaller number of others are boosted 10%. That's not exactly realistic or even-handed.
Besides all that, most of the actual issues of sexism in games have entirely societal roots. The roles you play, the clothes you wear, how you're expected to behave, how others behave towards you, etc... That stuff's far more glaring and, sadly, will probably be far harder to fix :/
(Isn't it amazing, by the way, how many FPSes still default to or even enforce a well-built, often caucasian male player model? Even good ol' Quake 3, despite defaulting the same way because of the central character still supposedly being the Generic Space Marine of Doom thru Q2, allowed you to use whatever avatar mesh, skin and soundset you liked, with no intrinsic judgement, and had a very diverse set of built-in player models... I can't see any excuse for it at all. It's simply lazy and going for the _presumed_ greatest market share without giving any kind of crap about the _supposed_ minority demographics.)
I don't know what your point is, at all. I wasn't even going after Dragon Ball. This was completely obvious from my last post so you don't have to get defensive. However, your argument that there are other more offensive things does nothing to absolve Dragon Ball and I don't see why you would think that.CaptainMarvelous said:
I'm not really interested in tearing on a show that's over 20 years old because everything was more misogynist back then. Mind you, there were a lot of objectionable things in the show, so much so that it passed through a lot of censorship before I saw it as a child. I think that's my measuring yard. If a 1980s government finds treatment of women (not nudity, treatment) so barbaric and base that it feels it needs to censor it, that must be pretty misogynistic.
You also seem to be unaware that human beings process emotions in a very nuanced fashion and not as a set of binaries. Hate encompasses a great deal of biochemical impulses that manifest in various forms. Normalized debasement of women is one way to manifest hate and it's pervasive through all media and all culture. What I'm trying to say is that you shouldn't take this so personally.