Sexism in gameplay

[Eddie the head]

Beyond things like Oblivion giving females a strength drop and an endurance boost, I can't think of any.

That isn' sexist though, that's accurate. Physical tests between men and women have concluded that men are, as a general rule, faster and stronger at the start of, for example, a marathon, but women have longer endurance and are more resistant to pain at the end of the run.

And how is that even remotely relevant in a game where gates to hell open, there are bipedal, sentient cat-people and lizard-people and magic is an every day occurance? It is even less relevant since the protagonist of Oblivion obviously is a very special person, able to master in weeks what it takes most other people in the setting decades to master (especially when it comes to magic). As the final nail in the coffin of your argument, it isn't the cap that is maxed, it is the starting attribute, meaning that in the end a female character can be just as strong as a man.

I wouldn't exactly call it overt sexism on the part of Bethesda, but it definitely falls in the category of unintended sexism because something wasn't thought through enough. On the other hand, it is such a minor thing that I honestly think it doesn't matter much when put in context with how other games portray women.

I don't get it? The guy said there are physical differences between males and females. And someone should not be called sexist for saying there is a difference. Yet you say, I think, because it's a work of fantasy everyone should be the same? I don't get that? They chose to add some realism to a fantasy world. So unless reality is sexiest I don't get how that can be considered sexist?

The rest of this boils down to "yeah, I don't get how that goes against what he said."

 

[jack daniels]

I think we can all sorta agree that blatant sexism and misogyny in narration is pretty bad, no matter the medium, right?
I mean tropes can be used pretty much universally in books, films and video games. But the thing is video games are special because of their interactivity and there are only few games that are inherently misogynistic in terms of gameplay. Yes, there are quite a few games which feature horrible and frankly stupid tropes of female character and do depict women in quite a sexist way. And if we seperate video games in terms of this interactivity we'll find that there aren't that many games which depict misogyny through gameplay (aside from porn games, I guess :/ )

Whilst everyone condemns misogyny it appears that misandry is not only encouraged but welcomed in all forms of the media depicting women degrading men, including women being violent towards men is meant to be a funny past time (eg Bobbitt). The hypocrisy is that women play the gender card justifying their violence against men then they quickly hide behind their skirt, and whilst crying pathetically whimper out, "oh but I am ONLY a poor defenceless woman.
Oh pulllease!!!

 

[Pulse]

If a videogame has a female character and no one plays it, is it still sexist?

At the moment it looks like in order to not be a sexist game a female character must be all of the below
1. Intelligent
2. Rational
3. Attractive
4. Not too attractive
5. Conservatively dressed
6. Independent
7. Single
8. Not be subjected to violence
9. Be able to inflict violence
10. Not embody "male characteristics"
11. Not embody "female characteristics"
12. Not have their gender apply to any aspect of the story
13. Cannot be a silent protagonist
14. Not show any signs of vulnerability

EVERYTHING IS SEXIST!

 

[nymz]

So movies and games that have a lead male character that rescues a woman is automatically sexist? What the actual fuck?

 

[JudgeGame]

When it comes to sexism in games I just struggle to care at all. I can't be the only one who just doesn't give a shit.

-snip-

If you don't care, why do you bother reading these threads AND commenting?

Because I enjoy pointing out how much I don't care.

That is incredibly sad. I have nothing to add to that.

What makes it incredibly sad?

Your existence being so empty and devoid of meaning you had nothing you'd rather do than express your apathy towards the concerns of other's. It's so tragic I want to cry.

You know what's really sad JudgeGame is that you hold this opinion -

"So far I've always given the benefit of the doubt and assumed games are made by and designed for aggressively immature idiots who can't tell their ass from their elbow and aren't aware that actions speak volumes." (remember this quote from your "Critics ruin games......Good" thread)

And yet here you are posting in and creating topics in the gaming discussion section of a website that caters almost exclusively for people who enjoy playing video games.

It is true I believe games are designed for aggressively immature idiots. That does not stop people who aren't aggressively immature idiots from enjoying those games on their own terms. Does that clarify anything?

 

[JudgeGame]

When it comes to sexism in games I just struggle to care at all. I can't be the only one who just doesn't give a shit.

-snip-

If you don't care, why do you bother reading these threads AND commenting?

Because I enjoy pointing out how much I don't care.

That is incredibly sad. I have nothing to add to that.

What makes it incredibly sad?

Your existence being so empty and devoid of meaning you had nothing you'd rather do than express your apathy towards the concerns of other's. It's so tragic I want to cry.

Maybe I've used up most of my caring towards the topic in the fifty other threads.

It's natural to care less about a problem as time goes on if it's always talked about but never truly addressed. If you're actively addressing it yourself (Mother Theresa and the poor, as an extreme example) or witnessing your caring having an actual effect (donating to a charity and seeing the results) or if the issue isn't talked about constantly all the time (elections), then it makes sense to keep caring. If the above three conditions fail (say, our observing and discussing sexism in games), then it becomes something to live with. Continuing to care just makes you obsessive.

If anything, we NEED the people who don't care to flood the threads and say so. Maybe the discussion amongst those who still care can be relegated to ONE thread, leaving the overloaded rest of us to have a break and regain our caring. It's much easier to ignore one thread rather than five.

I don't know how you think the Internet works but there isn't a limited supply of threads. You can post on any thread you like or even start your own thread. Saying you have no interest in a conversation you weren't even a part of is a very bizarre brand of sociopathy you don't see much in ordinary life. Did you really not know all this already?

 

[Woiminkle]

When it comes to sexism in games I just struggle to care at all. I can't be the only one who just doesn't give a shit.

-snip-

If you don't care, why do you bother reading these threads AND commenting?

Because I enjoy pointing out how much I don't care.

That is incredibly sad. I have nothing to add to that.

What makes it incredibly sad?

Your existence being so empty and devoid of meaning you had nothing you'd rather do than express your apathy towards the concerns of other's. It's so tragic I want to cry.

You know what's really sad JudgeGame is that you hold this opinion -

"So far I've always given the benefit of the doubt and assumed games are made by and designed for aggressively immature idiots who can't tell their ass from their elbow and aren't aware that actions speak volumes." (remember this quote from your "Critics ruin games......Good" thread)

And yet here you are posting in and creating topics in the gaming discussion section of a website that caters almost exclusively for people who enjoy playing video games.

It is true I believe games are designed for aggressively immature idiots. That does not stop people who aren't aggressively immature idiots from enjoying those games on their own terms. Does that clarify anything?

You're conveniently leaving out the "made by" part of that statement. So again just clarify a little more for me here, you are happy to monetarily support "aggressively immature idiots" by buying their products and enjoying them on your own terms but the rest of us gamers are the "aggressively immature idiots" because we enjoy them for our own reasons yet somehow according to you the wrong ones? Is that what you mean?

 

[Auron]

[/quote]

I honestly think that you're the one being sexist by furthering the steryotype that women have 'raging emotions'. Pointing out a videogame character's powers does nothing to help the issue at all.

Also, it's not like any male has ever had a power based upon their 'anger' or 'PMSing' as you'd call it. Hardly sexist.

Also also: "But the thing is video games are special because of their interactivity". No. All art is to be judged by the same standard.

If a videogame has a female character and no one plays it, is it still sexist?

At the moment it looks like in order to not be a sexist game a female character must be all of the below
1. Intelligent
2. Rational
3. Attractive
4. Not too attractive
5. Conservatively dressed
6. Independent
7. Single
8. Not be subjected to violence
9. Be able to inflict violence
10. Not embody "male characteristics"
11. Not embody "female characteristics"
12. Not have their gender apply to any aspect of the story
13. Cannot be a silent protagonist
14. Not show any signs of vulnerability

EVERYTHING IS SEXIST!

Yeah, pretty much that. People like to overcomplicate and read more than there is into things don't they? Men can be portrayed as any type of character but women suddenly are special? This is heavily fucked up, and how many threads about this do we need again?

 

[Spinozaad]

Never confuse content with form.

You can take the postmodern approach, which is popular with teens and freshmen philosophy students, and observe that everything is a perspective and all perspectives are implicitly about power and power relations.

Yeah, or you shouldn't.

To take the Skyrim example. How is that sexist? In the Skyrim universe, women have less physical strength but greater stamina. What is the problem here? What is the game saying? That women are worse than men? No, they're different. Last time I physically checked, men and women are.

While we're on the subject of (arbitrary) limitations and advantages in video games, whyisn't Charizard a dragon type? Or why are Adepts in Mass Effect 1 unable to specialize in assault rifles?

Why isn't everyone able to do everything? Aren't we, like, equal?!

If you answered: "Because of gameplay balance/differentation", then you are not confusing content with form. Congratulations.

 

[Lovely Mixture]

Beyond things like Oblivion giving females a strength drop and an endurance boost, I can't think of any.

Lolwut, that actually happened?

Yeah.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Races

More accurately, women tend to have higher personality and willpower (good for magery) and men have higher endurance and strength (good for warriors), with exceptions (Orcish women have abysmal personality, even worse than Orcish men) and oddities (female Argonians and Orcs are smarter than the men, with the rest of the races tied).

It didn't really matter, though, because the skill ceilings were identical.

Wow. That is funny, messed-up, and awkward...all at the same time.
I mean it's kind of an interesting subtle thing to spruce up gameplay at the cost of stereotypes, but really Bethesda? Character creation isn't supposed to limit people in THAT sort of way. To clarify, I don't think this is a HUGE deal, but I feel it should be avoided.

Good find Lack, never knew this.

While we're on the subject of (arbitrary) limitations and advantages in video games, whyisn't Charizard a dragon type? Or why are Adepts in Mass Effect 1 unable to specialize in assault rifles?

Why isn't everyone able to do everything? Aren't we, like, equal?!

If you answered: "Because of gameplay balance/differentation", then you are not confusing content with form. Congratulations.

I'd argue that race and classes are separate from gender, but that only furthers your point. Everyone has a different place where they draw the line.

To take the Skyrim example. How is that sexist? In the Skyrim universe, women have less physical strength but greater stamina. What is the problem here? What is the game saying? That women are worse than men? No, they're different. Last time I physically checked, men and women are.

Yeah I don't think it's sexist. But as I said earlier, I think it's contrary to a game that puts emphasis on character creation, what if you want to role-play as a buff woman who has low stamina?

 

[JudgeGame]

When it comes to sexism in games I just struggle to care at all. I can't be the only one who just doesn't give a shit.

-snip-

If you don't care, why do you bother reading these threads AND commenting?

Because I enjoy pointing out how much I don't care.

That is incredibly sad. I have nothing to add to that.

What makes it incredibly sad?

Your existence being so empty and devoid of meaning you had nothing you'd rather do than express your apathy towards the concerns of other's. It's so tragic I want to cry.

You know what's really sad JudgeGame is that you hold this opinion -

"So far I've always given the benefit of the doubt and assumed games are made by and designed for aggressively immature idiots who can't tell their ass from their elbow and aren't aware that actions speak volumes." (remember this quote from your "Critics ruin games......Good" thread)

And yet here you are posting in and creating topics in the gaming discussion section of a website that caters almost exclusively for people who enjoy playing video games.

It is true I believe games are designed for aggressively immature idiots. That does not stop people who aren't aggressively immature idiots from enjoying those games on their own terms. Does that clarify anything?

You're conveniently leaving out the "made by" part of that statement. So again just clarify a little more for me here, you are happy to monetarily support "aggressively immature idiots" by buying their products and enjoying them on your own terms but the rest of us gamers are the "aggressively immature idiots" because we enjoy them for our own reasons yet somehow according to you the wrong ones? Is that what you mean?

I didn't point any fingers. This isn't about you. Don't be so egocentric. I meant what I wrote. If you have trouble understanding very simple English that isn't my problem.

 

[Woiminkle]

When it comes to sexism in games I just struggle to care at all. I can't be the only one who just doesn't give a shit.

-snip-

If you don't care, why do you bother reading these threads AND commenting?

Because I enjoy pointing out how much I don't care.

That is incredibly sad. I have nothing to add to that.

What makes it incredibly sad?

Your existence being so empty and devoid of meaning you had nothing you'd rather do than express your apathy towards the concerns of other's. It's so tragic I want to cry.

You know what's really sad JudgeGame is that you hold this opinion -

"So far I've always given the benefit of the doubt and assumed games are made by and designed for aggressively immature idiots who can't tell their ass from their elbow and aren't aware that actions speak volumes." (remember this quote from your "Critics ruin games......Good" thread)

And yet here you are posting in and creating topics in the gaming discussion section of a website that caters almost exclusively for people who enjoy playing video games.

It is true I believe games are designed for aggressively immature idiots. That does not stop people who aren't aggressively immature idiots from enjoying those games on their own terms. Does that clarify anything?

You're conveniently leaving out the "made by" part of that statement. So again just clarify a little more for me here, you are happy to monetarily support "aggressively immature idiots" by buying their products and enjoying them on your own terms but the rest of us gamers are the "aggressively immature idiots" because we enjoy them for our own reasons yet somehow according to you the wrong ones? Is that what you mean?

I didn't point any fingers. This isn't about you. Don't be so egocentric. I meant what I wrote. If you have trouble understanding very simple English that isn't my problem.

Wow okay, make a personal attack instead of addressing the point. I'm sure nobody will notice and agree with you that assuming games are made by and for aggressively immature idiots doesn't constitute finger pointing at all. Damn tricksy englishes.

 

[JudgeGame]

When it comes to sexism in games I just struggle to care at all. I can't be the only one who just doesn't give a shit.

-snip-

If you don't care, why do you bother reading these threads AND commenting?

Because I enjoy pointing out how much I don't care.

That is incredibly sad. I have nothing to add to that.

What makes it incredibly sad?

Your existence being so empty and devoid of meaning you had nothing you'd rather do than express your apathy towards the concerns of other's. It's so tragic I want to cry.

You know what's really sad JudgeGame is that you hold this opinion -

"So far I've always given the benefit of the doubt and assumed games are made by and designed for aggressively immature idiots who can't tell their ass from their elbow and aren't aware that actions speak volumes." (remember this quote from your "Critics ruin games......Good" thread)

And yet here you are posting in and creating topics in the gaming discussion section of a website that caters almost exclusively for people who enjoy playing video games.

It is true I believe games are designed for aggressively immature idiots. That does not stop people who aren't aggressively immature idiots from enjoying those games on their own terms. Does that clarify anything?

You're conveniently leaving out the "made by" part of that statement. So again just clarify a little more for me here, you are happy to monetarily support "aggressively immature idiots" by buying their products and enjoying them on your own terms but the rest of us gamers are the "aggressively immature idiots" because we enjoy them for our own reasons yet somehow according to you the wrong ones? Is that what you mean?

I didn't point any fingers. This isn't about you. Don't be so egocentric. I meant what I wrote. If you have trouble understanding very simple English that isn't my problem.

Wow okay, make a personal attack instead of addressing the point. I'm sure nobody will notice and agree with you that assuming games are made by and for aggressively immature idiots doesn't constitute finger pointing at all. Damn tricksy englishes.

I didn't fingerpoint anybody. Maybe the fact you feel I am pointing you out says more about you than it says about me.

 

[Woiminkle]

When it comes to sexism in games I just struggle to care at all. I can't be the only one who just doesn't give a shit.

-snip-

If you don't care, why do you bother reading these threads AND commenting?

Because I enjoy pointing out how much I don't care.

That is incredibly sad. I have nothing to add to that.

What makes it incredibly sad?

Your existence being so empty and devoid of meaning you had nothing you'd rather do than express your apathy towards the concerns of other's. It's so tragic I want to cry.

You know what's really sad JudgeGame is that you hold this opinion -

"So far I've always given the benefit of the doubt and assumed games are made by and designed for aggressively immature idiots who can't tell their ass from their elbow and aren't aware that actions speak volumes." (remember this quote from your "Critics ruin games......Good" thread)

And yet here you are posting in and creating topics in the gaming discussion section of a website that caters almost exclusively for people who enjoy playing video games.

It is true I believe games are designed for aggressively immature idiots. That does not stop people who aren't aggressively immature idiots from enjoying those games on their own terms. Does that clarify anything?

You're conveniently leaving out the "made by" part of that statement. So again just clarify a little more for me here, you are happy to monetarily support "aggressively immature idiots" by buying their products and enjoying them on your own terms but the rest of us gamers are the "aggressively immature idiots" because we enjoy them for our own reasons yet somehow according to you the wrong ones? Is that what you mean?

I didn't point any fingers. This isn't about you. Don't be so egocentric. I meant what I wrote. If you have trouble understanding very simple English that isn't my problem.

Wow okay, make a personal attack instead of addressing the point. I'm sure nobody will notice and agree with you that assuming games are made by and for aggressively immature idiots doesn't constitute finger pointing at all. Damn tricksy englishes.

I didn't fingerpoint anybody. Maybe the fact you feel I am pointing you out says more about you than it says about me.

Nobody in particular you mean, just all gamers and developers who don't share your opinion, I'm not sure where you are getting the notion that I'm somehow taking it personally I certainly didn't say anything that could be construed that way. Just that last part where you ASSUMED (see you did it again) I was being egotistical and making it about me when you clearly said you were talking about all gamers, apart from yourself of course. My point is you seem to be desperately trying to put yourself on a pedestal because while games are made by and for "aggressively immature idiots" it's okay for you to enjoy them on your own terms because you are somehow more enlightend than the rest of the gaming community. So who is being egotistical?

 

[Vault101]

Even biologically-accurate observations can be misinterpreted as sexist by people who are trying to be overly politically correct.

that really depends though...

in the case of obliivion? yeah sure, I'm fine with that

but lets say you couldn't play as a female in oblivion or mass effect and the excuse was "biologically-accurate observations" <-thats when I'd call Bullshit

 

[JudgeGame]

When it comes to sexism in games I just struggle to care at all. I can't be the only one who just doesn't give a shit.

-snip-

If you don't care, why do you bother reading these threads AND commenting?

Because I enjoy pointing out how much I don't care.

That is incredibly sad. I have nothing to add to that.

What makes it incredibly sad?

Your existence being so empty and devoid of meaning you had nothing you'd rather do than express your apathy towards the concerns of other's. It's so tragic I want to cry.

You know what's really sad JudgeGame is that you hold this opinion -

"So far I've always given the benefit of the doubt and assumed games are made by and designed for aggressively immature idiots who can't tell their ass from their elbow and aren't aware that actions speak volumes." (remember this quote from your "Critics ruin games......Good" thread)

And yet here you are posting in and creating topics in the gaming discussion section of a website that caters almost exclusively for people who enjoy playing video games.

It is true I believe games are designed for aggressively immature idiots. That does not stop people who aren't aggressively immature idiots from enjoying those games on their own terms. Does that clarify anything?

You're conveniently leaving out the "made by" part of that statement. So again just clarify a little more for me here, you are happy to monetarily support "aggressively immature idiots" by buying their products and enjoying them on your own terms but the rest of us gamers are the "aggressively immature idiots" because we enjoy them for our own reasons yet somehow according to you the wrong ones? Is that what you mean?

I didn't point any fingers. This isn't about you. Don't be so egocentric. I meant what I wrote. If you have trouble understanding very simple English that isn't my problem.

Wow okay, make a personal attack instead of addressing the point. I'm sure nobody will notice and agree with you that assuming games are made by and for aggressively immature idiots doesn't constitute finger pointing at all. Damn tricksy englishes.

I didn't fingerpoint anybody. Maybe the fact you feel I am pointing you out says more about you than it says about me.

Nobody in particular you mean, just all gamers and developers who don't share your opinion, I'm not sure where you are getting the notion that I'm somehow taking it personally I certainly didn't say anything that could be construed that way. Just that last part where you ASSUMED (see you did it again) I was being egotistical and making it about me when you clearly said you were talking about all gamers, apart from yourself of course. My point is you seem to be desperately trying to put yourself on a pedestal because while games are made by and for "aggressively immature idiots" it's okay for you to enjoy them on your own terms because you are somehow more enlightend than the rest of the gaming community. So who is being egotistical?

Quoting your own words: "but the rest of us gamers are the "aggressively immature idiots" because we enjoy them for our own reasons". You immediately put yourself into the conversation, twice. I never said the aggressively immature idiots were the people who didn't agree with me. I never even implied that the aggressively immature idiots even existed, I said games were designed for them. I never said I was talking about all gamers. If you can't understand this then I think you should go practice your English a bit more before you keep answering. It is very hard to have a conversation with somebody when they don't share a common language. I don't want you to get so upset when I'm not even confronting you.