Sexism in gameplay

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Batou667

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Somebody with a chip on their shoulder or an agenda to perpetuate the narrative that "media is always sexist" can find sexism literally anywhere. "Look, and ye shall surely find", or whatever the old adage is.

----------------- Females in Games, According to the Whiners ---------------------------------

Representation
No women in a game: What a complete sausage fest, thanks for ignoring 50% of the world's population.[footnote]Call of Duty, FIFA[/footnote]
A few women: Patronising tokenism.[footnote]Streetfighter II, Golden Axe, just about every game ever made[/footnote]
"Too many" women: Ugh, clearly a male fantasy. These women are just interchangeable eye-candy, like some virtual harem![footnote]Dead or Alive[/footnote]
Exclusively women: PORN! PORN! Obviously porn![footnote]DOA Beach Volleyball, Skullgirls, at least prior to the "devs are wimminz" revelation which made most people do a 180 on their opinion[/footnote] (or alternatively) Patronising "Games for Girls" shit. This is the gaming equivalent of being made to sit at the back of the bus.[footnote]Cooking Mama, Nintendo DS Fairy Princess Horse Simulator 4, you know the kind of thing[/footnote]

Appearance
Attractive females: This is just male wank fantasy. Thanks for defining a woman's worth as a person by her appearance, jerks.[footnote]Dead or Alive, Soul Calibur, WoW[/footnote]
Average females: That's not very empowering. You think women should be the drab pea-hens to the strutting male peacocks, eh? Conservatively image-policing us in games now, eh? When will the oppression stop!
Unattractive females: Your cruel depiction of this one ugly/old/fat woman is clearly a slur on ALL women! Boo! Hiss![footnote]Fat Princess[/footnote]

Abilities
Equal to men: This doesn't reflect femininity or womanliness in any way. Stop trying to ignore female attributes and portraying maleness as the norm![footnote]WoW, Ms Pac Man, anything where the female is a re-skinned male default avatar[/footnote]
Different to men: Clear sexism! Difference is by definition disparity! You're valuing maleness over femaleness![footnote]Skyrim[/footnote]

Role in the game
Love interest: Great, so we're still relegated to being a "prize" or "reward" for the heroic male to inevitably "claim". Pass me the bucket, I'm about to vomit.
Has been kidnapped: Damsel in distress, eh? This implies all women are helpless and define themselves by their need for male help. Sexist.[footnote]Mario[/footnote]
Sidekick: Yet another reminder that males are superior and women are glorified mother/girlfriend surrogates.[footnote]Resident Evil 5, Halo[/footnote]
Optional lead role: The box art still has a man on it, so it's still demeaning and sidelining![footnote]Mass Effect[/footnote]
Lead role: Hmm, now we're getting somewhere. But if this lead is presented in an overly sexy way[footnote]Bayonetta[/footnote], conforms to any stereotypes (even for the sake of playing on and sending up those stereotypes)[footnote]Chainsaw Lolipop[/footnote] or includes anything I consider distasteful[footnote]Tomb Raider[/footnote] then I'll still call it out as sexist.

GunsmithKitten said:
So why is someone who "acts like a man" still a compliment, but to say someone "acts like a woman" is still an insult?
I'm not sure that's true, or at least not true all (or even most) of the time. Sex is a binary and we tend to define one gender by its dissimilarity to the other.

OK, this is going to be an unorthodox way of making my point, but bear with me. This here is one of the best displays of sex equality I've ever seen:


Basically, it's a girl-vs-boy rap battle, complete with all the lowbrow smack-talk and insults that entails.[footnote]The same guy later gets ruined in a rap battle with his English teacher - http://youtu.be/tp4wEewrQdU[/footnote] The whole schtick here is that she constantly belittles his masculinity while he belittles her femininity. No pretence of political correctness, no pretending that "we're all the same, sex is just a physical variation", this is straight-up "different but equal" set within an acknowledgement, not a denial, of established gender roles and societal norms.

Basically, no man wants to be called "a woman" but very few women would take genuine pride in being called "manly" either. There is difference between the sexes and I think that should be recognised and even celebrated, and the conclusion needn't necessarily be that X is better than Y or vice-versa.
 

JudgeGame

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Batou667 said:
But if I was was "manly" or "womanly" why should I have to be treated differently because of it?

In any case, insulting other people for lulz is petty.
 

Woiminkle

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JudgeGame said:
Woiminkle said:
JudgeGame said:
Woiminkle said:
JudgeGame said:
Woiminkle said:
JudgeGame said:
Woiminkle said:
JudgeGame said:
ShinyCharizard said:
JudgeGame said:
ShinyCharizard said:
JudgeGame said:
Rawne1980 said:
ShinyCharizard said:
When it comes to sexism in games I just struggle to care at all. I can't be the only one who just doesn't give a shit.
-snip-
If you don't care, why do you bother reading these threads AND commenting?
Because I enjoy pointing out how much I don't care.
That is incredibly sad. I have nothing to add to that.
What makes it incredibly sad?
Your existence being so empty and devoid of meaning you had nothing you'd rather do than express your apathy towards the concerns of other's. It's so tragic I want to cry.
You know what's really sad JudgeGame is that you hold this opinion -

"So far I've always given the benefit of the doubt and assumed games are made by and designed for aggressively immature idiots who can't tell their ass from their elbow and aren't aware that actions speak volumes." (remember this quote from your "Critics ruin games......Good" thread)

And yet here you are posting in and creating topics in the gaming discussion section of a website that caters almost exclusively for people who enjoy playing video games.
It is true I believe games are designed for aggressively immature idiots. That does not stop people who aren't aggressively immature idiots from enjoying those games on their own terms. Does that clarify anything?
You're conveniently leaving out the "made by" part of that statement. So again just clarify a little more for me here, you are happy to monetarily support "aggressively immature idiots" by buying their products and enjoying them on your own terms but the rest of us gamers are the "aggressively immature idiots" because we enjoy them for our own reasons yet somehow according to you the wrong ones? Is that what you mean?
I didn't point any fingers. This isn't about you. Don't be so egocentric. I meant what I wrote. If you have trouble understanding very simple English that isn't my problem.
Wow okay, make a personal attack instead of addressing the point. I'm sure nobody will notice and agree with you that assuming games are made by and for aggressively immature idiots doesn't constitute finger pointing at all. Damn tricksy englishes.
I didn't fingerpoint anybody. Maybe the fact you feel I am pointing you out says more about you than it says about me.
Nobody in particular you mean, just all gamers and developers who don't share your opinion, I'm not sure where you are getting the notion that I'm somehow taking it personally I certainly didn't say anything that could be construed that way. Just that last part where you ASSUMED (see you did it again) I was being egotistical and making it about me when you clearly said you were talking about all gamers, apart from yourself of course. My point is you seem to be desperately trying to put yourself on a pedestal because while games are made by and for "aggressively immature idiots" it's okay for you to enjoy them on your own terms because you are somehow more enlightend than the rest of the gaming community. So who is being egotistical?
Quoting your own words: "but the rest of us gamers are the "aggressively immature idiots" because we enjoy them for our own reasons". You immediately put yourself into the conversation, twice. I never said the aggressively immature idiots were the people who didn't agree with me. I never even implied that the aggressively immature idiots even existed, I said games were designed for them. I never said I was talking about all gamers. If you can't understand this then I think you should go practice your English a bit more before you keep answering. It is very hard to have a conversation with somebody when they don't share a common language. I don't want you to get so upset when I'm not even confronting you.
Oh but judge I'm not upset at all. I've been enjoying watch you wriggle and squirm and back pedal when myself and others have confronted you. I love how you try to use semantics to back your way out when you can no longer support your own weak assumptions and made up statistics. I really love how you are trying to make out that I'm upset with you now. I'm not the one claiming that gamers are either idiots at best or psychopaths at worst. You were the one spouting that nonsense. I'm saying it's not an either or situation, I'm saying there are many reasons why some people don't consider this an issue that don't involve anyone being either an idiot or evil and psychotic. That's all you baby. And that's the real reason you keep bringing up our shared language, to avoid the real issue and try to salvage what little dignity you have left. I thnk most people reading this thread will see through it though, so I have no cause to get upset dear.
 

Woiminkle

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JudgeGame said:
Batou667 said:
But if I was was "manly" or "womanly" why should I have to be treated differently because of it?

In any case, insulting other people for lulz is petty.
Oh my Judge I love how your brain works it's a fascinating example of the scope of cognitive dissonance, anyway I must leave you now unfortunately I have to pick up the little man from school and my day after that is pretty busy so to you I leave the last word and to everyone else in the thread keep enjoying this magnificent specimen.
Peace.
 

JudgeGame

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Woiminkle said:
JudgeGame said:
Woiminkle said:
JudgeGame said:
Woiminkle said:
JudgeGame said:
Woiminkle said:
JudgeGame said:
Woiminkle said:
JudgeGame said:
ShinyCharizard said:
JudgeGame said:
ShinyCharizard said:
JudgeGame said:
Rawne1980 said:
ShinyCharizard said:
When it comes to sexism in games I just struggle to care at all. I can't be the only one who just doesn't give a shit.
-snip-
If you don't care, why do you bother reading these threads AND commenting?
Because I enjoy pointing out how much I don't care.
That is incredibly sad. I have nothing to add to that.
What makes it incredibly sad?
Your existence being so empty and devoid of meaning you had nothing you'd rather do than express your apathy towards the concerns of other's. It's so tragic I want to cry.
You know what's really sad JudgeGame is that you hold this opinion -

"So far I've always given the benefit of the doubt and assumed games are made by and designed for aggressively immature idiots who can't tell their ass from their elbow and aren't aware that actions speak volumes." (remember this quote from your "Critics ruin games......Good" thread)

And yet here you are posting in and creating topics in the gaming discussion section of a website that caters almost exclusively for people who enjoy playing video games.
It is true I believe games are designed for aggressively immature idiots. That does not stop people who aren't aggressively immature idiots from enjoying those games on their own terms. Does that clarify anything?
You're conveniently leaving out the "made by" part of that statement. So again just clarify a little more for me here, you are happy to monetarily support "aggressively immature idiots" by buying their products and enjoying them on your own terms but the rest of us gamers are the "aggressively immature idiots" because we enjoy them for our own reasons yet somehow according to you the wrong ones? Is that what you mean?
I didn't point any fingers. This isn't about you. Don't be so egocentric. I meant what I wrote. If you have trouble understanding very simple English that isn't my problem.
Wow okay, make a personal attack instead of addressing the point. I'm sure nobody will notice and agree with you that assuming games are made by and for aggressively immature idiots doesn't constitute finger pointing at all. Damn tricksy englishes.
I didn't fingerpoint anybody. Maybe the fact you feel I am pointing you out says more about you than it says about me.
Nobody in particular you mean, just all gamers and developers who don't share your opinion, I'm not sure where you are getting the notion that I'm somehow taking it personally I certainly didn't say anything that could be construed that way. Just that last part where you ASSUMED (see you did it again) I was being egotistical and making it about me when you clearly said you were talking about all gamers, apart from yourself of course. My point is you seem to be desperately trying to put yourself on a pedestal because while games are made by and for "aggressively immature idiots" it's okay for you to enjoy them on your own terms because you are somehow more enlightend than the rest of the gaming community. So who is being egotistical?
Quoting your own words: "but the rest of us gamers are the "aggressively immature idiots" because we enjoy them for our own reasons". You immediately put yourself into the conversation, twice. I never said the aggressively immature idiots were the people who didn't agree with me. I never even implied that the aggressively immature idiots even existed, I said games were designed for them. I never said I was talking about all gamers. If you can't understand this then I think you should go practice your English a bit more before you keep answering. It is very hard to have a conversation with somebody when they don't share a common language. I don't want you to get so upset when I'm not even confronting you.
Oh but judge I'm not upset at all. I've been enjoying watch you wriggle and squirm and back pedal when myself and others have confronted you. I love how you try to use semantics to back your way out when you can no longer support your own weak assumptions and made up statistics. I really love how you are trying to make out that I'm upset with you now. I'm not the one claiming that gamers are either idiots at best or psychopaths at worst. You were the one spouting that nonsense. I'm saying it's not an either or situation, I'm saying there are many reasons why some people don't consider this an issue that don't involve anyone being either an idiot or evil and psychotic. That's all you baby. And that's the real reason you keep bringing up our shared language, to avoid the real issue and try to salvage what little dignity you have left. I thnk most people reading this thread will see through it though, so I have no cause to get upset dear.
I'm glad you aren't upset. You seemed upset as you kept saying I was attacking you and name calling you, which I wasn't. On the other hand, I really don't see the point of having a conversation with you if you will persist with putting words in my mouth.
 

rosac

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The Unworthy Gentleman said:
ShinyCharizard said:
When it comes to sexism in games I just struggle to care at all. I can't be the only one who just doesn't give a shit.
No, you have me backing you and most of /v/ too. Trouble is that while I don't really care all that much about sexism in games, mostly because it's, by and large, white knights and obsessively offended women calling out the smallest things, it still gets my goat to see it going on.
Yeah, I find it amusing that a lot of people see incredibly minor things as offensive to women, yet men are completely unoffendable. I know someone will argue with me over this point, but I really really can't be dealing with it.
 

Mr.Squishy

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Pulse said:
If a videogame has a female character and no one plays it, is it still sexist?

At the moment it looks like in order to not be a sexist game a female character must be all of the below
1. Intelligent
2. Rational
3. Attractive
4. Not too attractive
5. Conservatively dressed
6. Independent
7. Single
8. Not be subjected to violence
9. Be able to inflict violence
10. Not embody "male characteristics"
11. Not embody "female characteristics"
12. Not have their gender apply to any aspect of the story
13. Cannot be a silent protagonist
14. Not show any signs of vulnerability

EVERYTHING IS SEXIST!
Yeah, this is what I get when I try to figure out this whole situation/discussion. Which makes me so sad, because I hate to see genuine efforts to have good female characters/a non-sexist story be instantly dismissed and beaten down by unreasonable expectations.
 

Batou667

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JudgeGame said:
Batou667 said:
But if I was was "manly" or "womanly" why should I have to be treated differently because of it?

In any case, insulting other people for lulz is petty.
Well, that mega-snip rather obliterated the context so I'm not entirely sure what I'm responding to here, but let me have a go anyway.

We live in the real world which is full of societal norms, expectations, prejudices (positive and negative) and preconceptions. If you were "manly" or "womanly" - well, I'm not going to be the one to say you SHOULD be treated differently for it, but rather, you WILL. Same as if you were black. Or ginger. Or had facial tattoos, or were 6'7", or were incredibly handsome. Being "a man" has societal expectations, just as much as being "a woman". That's not me supporting the system or defending The Patriarchy, that's just a refection of the current state of reality. It's not a perfect state of affairs but it can, and possibly even should, be changed. But in order to do that I don't think we need to obliterate all differentiation between male and female, any more than pretending not to notice that somebody is black makes you not-racist.

Your second point is a bit of a non-sequitur. Who is being insulted for the lulz?
 

chikusho

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Lovely Mixture said:
Yeah I don't think it's sexist. But as I said earlier, I think it's contrary to a game that puts emphasis on character creation, what if you want to role-play as a buff woman who has low stamina?
It seems you have no experience with Oblivion, so let me just point out that those base stats are effectively meaningless after you get outside the tutorial mission. You level up stats based on how you want to play the game, each stat is maxed out at 100 and you can select skills and favored stats that makes you level up those stats faster.
You can role play as a buff woman, a spagetti-armed orc or even a magical, wingless fairy if you choose never to zoom out to 3d person perspective, starting about 15 seconds after you leave the first area.
 

Stu35

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Res Plus said:
Yay, another thread about sexism. Epic fun times. "Quick, look chaps there's a game and it's got girls in it and they aren't the main protagonist. Sexism. Rampant sexism". It's a bit silly, sexism is wrong, looking for sexism where there is none is just dull.
This.


Seriously. I'm sick of every single thing being subjected to the "is this sexist?" debate... Make a woman your main character and she's good looking? Sexist, clearly aiming at hormonal males. She's not good looking? Sexist, trying to imply only ugly women can be competent. Make her strong? Sexist - implies she has to have male characteristics to succeed. Make her weak? Sexist, implies women are weak.


Pretty much this:

Pulse said:
If a videogame has a female character and no one plays it, is it still sexist?

At the moment it looks like in order to not be a sexist game a female character must be all of the below
1. Intelligent
2. Rational
3. Attractive
4. Not too attractive
5. Conservatively dressed
6. Independent
7. Single
8. Not be subjected to violence
9. Be able to inflict violence
10. Not embody "male characteristics"
11. Not embody "female characteristics"
12. Not have their gender apply to any aspect of the story
13. Cannot be a silent protagonist
14. Not show any signs of vulnerability

EVERYTHING IS SEXIST!
 

Uhura

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Aug 30, 2012
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Pulse said:
At the moment it looks like in order to not be a sexist game a female character must be all of the below
1. Intelligent
2. Rational
3. Attractive
4. Not too attractive
5. Conservatively dressed
6. Independent
7. Single
8. Not be subjected to violence
9. Be able to inflict violence
10. Not embody "male characteristics"
11. Not embody "female characteristics"
12. Not have their gender apply to any aspect of the story
13. Cannot be a silent protagonist
14. Not show any signs of vulnerability

EVERYTHING IS SEXIST!
Says who? How exactly did you compile that list? Who is asking for female characters that aren't subjected to violence or that don't show any signs of vulnerability? It's not like women hate Mass Effect/Dragon Age franchises. You don't really do any favors to your argument with that kind of hyperbole.

Besides it's not like many of those requests are completely unreasonable. A lot of those points on your list describe popular male characters in video games and in films. James Bond? Intelligent, rational, attractive, not too attractive (we can't have a pretty boy Bond, can we?), conservatively dressed (Bond wears suits most of the time), independent, single, able to inflict violence etc.
 

Hagi

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I think we need a sexism version of this one:


Don't get me wrong, there's some serious issues involving sexism that need solving. But I also believe there's just as many issues if not more that people are taking way too seriously at times.
 
Sep 14, 2009
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Lilani said:
And the same goes for racial minorities. We make a few movies like Remember the Titans or the Blind Side and celebrate how "over" racism we are, but who is almost always the lead character in an action movie? A white guy. You'll have the token black sidekick or friend for added touches of badass or comedy (because, as Moviebob once accurately pointed out, those are about the only flavors Hollywood will take black people in), but otherwise like females in lead parts you can't have a black guy in a lead role without the story somehow addressing that he isn't white. I can think of a few action movies with non-token black leads, but again that's just falling into the other trope of black characters having to either be comic relief or total badasses.

I will think we have gotten over all this when stories are comfortable having female or black or hispanic or Asian leads without having to explain themselves. When the story can unfold as normally and as uninvolved in social or gender politics as if the lead were a white guy.
not saying i disagree with you, but iRobot immediately popped into my mind on one that they NEVER once remotely pointed out that will smith is black, nor his boss (chi mcbride who i really like as an actor) either.

also, just for discussion, why should shows have to have equal bits of female/male ratio's to be considered non sexist? of course that gets into the debate on having equal representation vs equal opportunity (like the recent engineering/programming careers not having enough women)
 

Jonathan Weir

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Personally I think people get to worked up about sexism.
We have to eventually admit that men are men and in majority enjoy seeing women portrayed the way they traditionally are in video games, if this were not true then developers wouldn't make it so.

I don't see people complaining about how girls wear dresses in most games but guys don't and when you think about it logically the arguments boil down to being the same thing.
 

Lovely Mixture

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chikusho said:
Lovely Mixture said:
Yeah I don't think it's sexist. But as I said earlier, I think it's contrary to a game that puts emphasis on character creation, what if you want to role-play as a buff woman who has low stamina?
It seems you have no experience with Oblivion, so let me just point out that those base stats are effectively meaningless after you get outside the tutorial mission. You level up stats based on how you want to play the game, each stat is maxed out at 100 and you can select skills and favored stats that makes you level up those stats faster.
You can role play as a buff woman, a spagetti-armed orc or even a magical, wingless fairy if you choose never to zoom out to 3d person perspective, starting about 15 seconds after you leave the first area.
I have played Oblivion my friend, and I also know that it's very moddable on PC so any problems that might be presented on the PC version could be easily alleviated. I mean buff as in high strength of course, I didn't mean it in appearance. If appearances are in the case, of course paying in first person avoids the problem entirely, if you WANT to play that way.

Sure your stats can all be maxed out and it becomes irrelevant either way, I'm just arguing that it seems a little counter-intuitive to making your character the way you want them (at the beginning). Say if the game had a level cap? You'd be stuck with some the stats you didn't want.

Again, I'm not arguing that its sexist. I'm just saying it's an awkward situation. I sincerely hope there's no one who would just return the game because of such design choices.