Sexism in gameplay

[CaptainMarvelous]

I don't know what your point is, at all. I wasn't even going after Dragon Ball. This was completely obvious from my last post so you don't have to get defensive. However, your argument that there are other more offensive things does nothing to absolve Dragon Ball and I don't see why you would think that.

I'm not really interested in tearing on a show that's over 20 years old because everything was more misogynist back then. Mind you, there were a lot of objectionable things in the show, so much so that it passed through a lot of censorship before I saw it as a child. I think that's my measuring yard. If a 1980s government finds treatment of women (not nudity, treatment) so barbaric and base that it feels it needs to censor it, that must be pretty misogynistic.

You also seem to be unaware that human beings process emotions in a very nuanced fashion and not as a set of binaries. Hate encompasses a great deal of biochemical impulses that manifest in various forms. Normalized debasement of women is one way to manifest hate and it's pervasive through all media and all culture. What I'm trying to say is that you shouldn't take this so personally.

I was trying to rationalise that it wasn't a good case-study for the point being argued and gave some sources for this, sorry if that sounded personal but it looked neccessary. While I may see hate as being a more obvious 'I dislike you openly on principle, now I'm going to hit you' thing; I can still see where you're coming from. But the problem is as far as I can see, it winds up being reciprocal and goes the other way.

Twilight is obviously misogynistic because Bella's a flat lucklustre character and from a male perspective we could consider it misandranistic as that, apparently, is what men want from women, to be lifeless ironing boards. Same thing applies to that... werewolf.. guy who's name I can't remember. His appeal is that he's shirtless, which objectifies men and insults women.

Essentially, all I'm looking for is comparing examples and I think that sticking to Dragonball because sarcasm fails to translate well over the internet is not the ideal.

 

[MagunBFP]

The character of Maron in the TV show did not come from Toriyama's pen, she isn't present in the original comics. Bulma's sexual harrassment is taken to ridiculous levels in the TV show, in the manga there are only a few instances and they aren't as rapey as in the show. There is fair chance any version you recall will have had these scenes censored anyway. This is kind of irrelevant to the discussion but I thought I would clarify for your benefit.

You seem to not understand that there is a difference between differing perspectives and lying. Your arguments aren't wrong because they are different to mine. They are wrong because they are based on fantasy. It's hard to believe this needs any explaining.

There is something about you calling me out on misogyny but most of that sentence is beyond intelligible.

Ok lets get this perspective stuff cleared up first since it seems to be a problem for you...

Obi-wan said Vader killed Anakin Skywalker, Luke's father. Which technically is a lie, however, from a certain point of view the the person Anakin was at one point died when he fell to the dark side and he became Vader. So Obi-wan was being truthful metaphorically... which means he wasn't actually lying.

Still not convinced? Well here's something thats even easier... It's now 27 minutes past midnight on the 30th of January. If you look at your clock it probably says something different. I'm not lying about the time and neither is your clock, but how can we both be right? Our perspective on time.

Thats perspective, if you have any more confusion on how someone can have the same facts and see something different actually try to pretend that you're not irrefutably right and look again.

Calling you out on mysogyny... I said its different from sexism and you should use the correct words to describe your arguement, and you came up with some bullshit about Bulma's sexual harrassment and her tits to require a mind with alot of contempt for women. Then I said none of his other work demonstrates this contempt.

So what you're saying then is that some other artist is contemptous of women, but you'll never be able to actually support that because you don't know who made those scenes so "rapey" in the anime. Look I've seen many of those scenes, I'm not going to say I've seen them all, but they're not rapey, pervy yes, questionable for a kids show definitely but as Captain Marvelous pointed out Goku had his junk out even more often then Bulma's tits and you haven't even mentioned how terrible those scenes are. So you're either a hypocrite (sexism is bad against women but meh against males) or you find the female body especially objectionable which suggests you have deeper issues then just seeing mysogny where there is none.

But as I said its early here, time for me to crash... if you replay I'll look at it when I get up.

 

[Lilani]

-snip-

To provide a bit of context, many Japanese game studios--even the big ones--have been known to have...less than enlightened depictions of women, and are less likely to be concerned about it. For example, Team Ico has produced some of the most renowned video games in the last ~10 years in the way of both aesthetics and narrative. However, given the not-so-subtle elements in their stories, it's clear why their games haven't impressed the feminist crowd. In Shadow of the Colossus, the girl is dead and the guy is out to try and save her--what a shocking way to start a game. In Ico, you are a boy who is leading a girl by the hand through a maze of a temple because there is absolutely nothing she can do to help herself. She can't jump or climb without being instructed to, she can't defend herself or even hide, and she can't help you figure anything out. She's a mindless puppet you are literally dragging through the game who has no purpose except being an extra burden to watch out for.

Not only that, the guy from Team Ico leading the development of The Last Guardian [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Guardian#Development] stated that the reason they're going after a male protagonist in the game instead of a female (to break their boy's club streak) is because girls are weaker than boys and might not be able to tackle the physical labors the game would put her through. And not only that, some parts of the game would feature her climbing up stuff, and that would be terribly awkward to be seeing up her skirt during those times. Because God forbid she just wear trousers, and I never would have guessed that in a game where the main character has teamed up with and rides a giant griffin there would be some unusual or fantastical feats of physical prowess. You need some degree of realism to keep that giant griffin in check, amirite?

You wouldn't catch an American or European developer saying something like that in a million years. And if they did say it, they'd be promptly removed from the project and their studio would begin cleaning up the mess as soon as possible. And yet it came out of Japan, just last year. Not that I'm saying everything that comes out of Japan is sexist, however if I had to put every part of the industry on a spectrum of "sexism," I think most Japanese developers would land themselves on the more "sexist" end.

Anyway, now to your challenge of finding games that have sexism in gameplay. Well Ico as I mentioned, there isn't really anything you can call dragging a completely incapable female character throughout a game by the hand except sexist. As cool as the environments and storytelling might be, you really can't get around how messed-up that is. Also, and I don't know if it's true, but I heard in the early Pokemon games that featured female pokemon, the females always had slightly lower stats than the male pokemon of the same level. And...that's all I've got for now. Toodles~

 

[Lilani]

Snip

For the record at no time did I say sexism doesn't happen, all I did was point out that its possibly a smaller issue then it's victims like to make it.

First of all though... To add to your list there are...

Futurama
Blade Trinity
True Blood
Return of The King
Merlin
Sanctuary
Andromeda
NCIS
Farscape
Wanted
Angel
Sin City
Scott Pilgrim Vs The World
X-Men 3
Kill Bill
Tomb Raider
Aliens Vs Predator
G.I. Joe
The Avengers
Vandred
Xena
Dr Who
Dollhouse
Lost Girl
Ultraviolet
Resident Evil movies
Dead or Alive (the movie)

In several of the ones you listed here, men still populate the lead characters and the majority of the cast, with just a few female sprinkled in there for flavor (NCIS, Avengers[footnote]Yes I realize departing from the original characters would have defeated the purpose, but I'll soon address what I mean by listing this one.[/footnote], and Doctor Who come to mind[footnote]While I do love the way Who is handling female characters as compared to the classic Who, by sticking with a nearly all female sidekick cast they inevitably end up using the "female gets caught so the lead male has to rescue her" trope way more than I feel is necessary. That's not to say I don't love the show or the characters any less than I already do, it's just something that comes up as a story element way too often, I feel.[/footnote] To me, that sort of thing is falling into the trap of assuming that because we can sprinkle a few strong female characters into a story, we have as a society gotten over the gender roles and conventions of old.

But really, if we are truly over all this, then we shouldn't be getting a sprinkling of female characters. It would be either closer to an even split, or the characters wouldn't so obviously be there to be the "token females." There would be no "tokens," only characters. And stories that do have female leads wouldn't be about the lead character being a female. The Lord of the Rings had a male lead, but never did the movie consciously address any "issues" inherent to being a male. The story wasn't about Frodo being a guy, it was about him being the ringbearer. So many movies with female leads weave being a female into the narrative. It's as though they're afraid something will be missing if they don't in some way bring being a female into the narrative--like having her fight guys who are belittling her for her sex, or making it a story point that the villain is expecting a male but lo! In comes the unexpected female to be the hero!

And the same goes for racial minorities. We make a few movies like Remember the Titans or the Blind Side and celebrate how "over" racism we are, but who is almost always the lead character in an action movie? A white guy. You'll have the token black sidekick or friend for added touches of badass or comedy (because, as Moviebob once accurately pointed out, those are about the only flavors Hollywood will take black people in), but otherwise like females in lead parts you can't have a black guy in a lead role without the story somehow addressing that he isn't white. I can think of a few action movies with non-token black leads, but again that's just falling into the other trope of black characters having to either be comic relief or total badasses.

I will think we have gotten over all this when stories are comfortable having female or black or hispanic or Asian leads without having to explain themselves. When the story can unfold as normally and as uninvolved in social or gender politics as if the lead were a white guy.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

But really, if we are truly over all this, then we shouldn't be getting a sprinkling of female characters. It would be either closer to an even split, or the characters wouldn't so obviously be there to be the "token females." There would be no "tokens," only characters. And stories that do have female leads wouldn't be about the lead character being a female. The Lord of the Rings had a male lead, but never did the movie consciously address any "issues" inherent to being a male. The story wasn't about Frodo being a guy, it was about him being the ringbearer. So many movies with female leads weave being a female into the narrative. It's as though they're afraid something will be missing if they don't in some way bring being a female into the narrative--like having her fight guys who are belittling her for her sex, or making it a story point that the villain is expecting a male but lo! In comes the unexpected female to be the hero!

Not to get all gender theory nitpicky on you, but this argument can be taken either way. If a game features a female protagonist, shouldn't it at least address the fact that she is a woman in some way? I mean, Lord of the Rings features a really heavy-handed theme about male bonding and friendship: Both with Sam and Frodo and with Legolas and Gimli, men who are ready to give up their dreams of a stable life with a good woman (Sam even addresses this specifically in the Two Towers) in favor of doing what is right and finding the needed companionship and caring with their fellow guys.

Obviously, a female lead should be more than just a woman, but it could be argued that just making her "a soldier" or "an adventurer" isn't really promoting female protagonists, it is just a palette swap of genders. Don't get me wrong, I agree with your idea that we need to downplay the fact that a female lead is a female and that that somehow makes her radically different from a male lead (via the inclusion of "I thought you were a guy" or some sorry attempt at a rape attempt/sexual harassment-storyline).

Let us look at one of the best female leads ever: Kate Archer. She is portrayed as a capable agent and that's the central part of the storyline, Kate doing her job and succeeding where most others fail. But the fact that she's a woman is also ever present and the game takes its' time to address the issue of being a woman in a man's world (and does it pretty well, considering how old the game is).

TL DR: In a good protagonist the choice of gender is informed and has a purpose other than marketing (ie. "Guys only like to play 30-something, brown haired dudes" or "If I am gonna stare at an ass for 30 hours, I want it to be a hot girls latex-clad ass"), that gender plays a part or is acknowledged throughout the story.

 

[Cat Cloud]

My main problem with the game is that they seemed to think that women want to play as princess peach. It's like how businesses think that to make products "girl friendly" they have to make it pink and cover it in diamonds, rather than actually asking us what kinds of things we want. Most of the time I think we're fine with the original products. it's not like black is too dark for us and we need an alternative.

Women who design/make products for women sell better than stuff dripping in pink and diamonds. I think developers of games should either just do more research on what kinds of things women like in games or just hire more of them and/or put them in charge of products if people want to see a change.

I also sort of wish that developers would walk outside and see what kinds of clothes women actually wear before deciding what their characters wear.

 

[NemotheElvenPanda]

When I see a gay/bi person in video games that's essentially a walking stereotype i.e Zevran from DAO, I don't scream homophobia and call the gaming community homophobic. The reality is that when most games are made and played by white, male, heterosexuals, characters that don't get that mold tend to go into token/stereotype country simply because it's hard for the above to get into their shoes. This is why women characters tend to be either men with tits or love interests for the main character, or in my case, how homosexuals tend to be defined by their orientation. The creators will draw inspiration from their experiences and expectations, which are obviously biased but not bigoted, they may actually have good intentions by trying to expand their horizons. Personally, if you want to see better examples of (insert minority here) work for gaming company, or try to change perspectives.

Personally, I find this entire issue to be blown out of proportion. Yes, there is sexism, racism, and homophobia in video games, but it's not to the extent that a lot of people make it out to be. There are problems with how minorities are viewed, but they're getting more and more of a place in the gaming industry, and the more that these issues are addressed with a critical eye from BOTH sides, the better.

 

[FFP2]

Pretty much every single time you played as Catwoman in Arkham City. Even the idle animation was disgusting.

Bayonetta also does this to an extent but she actually ends up being one of the better female characters this generation because of it. She takes on enemies that dudes would shit themselves if they were in her situation. She can also transform into a freaking black panther.

 

[MagunBFP]

Snip

For the record at no time did I say sexism doesn't happen, all I did was point out that its possibly a smaller issue then it's victims like to make it.

First of all though... To add to your list there are...

Futurama
Blade Trinity
True Blood
Return of The King
Merlin
Sanctuary
Andromeda
NCIS
Farscape
Wanted
Angel
Sin City
Scott Pilgrim Vs The World
X-Men 3
Kill Bill
Tomb Raider
Aliens Vs Predator
G.I. Joe
The Avengers
Vandred
Xena
Dr Who
Dollhouse
Lost Girl
Ultraviolet
Resident Evil movies
Dead or Alive (the movie)

In several of the ones you listed here, men still populate the lead characters and the majority of the cast, with just a few female sprinkled in there for flavor (NCIS, Avengers[footnote]Yes I realize departing from the original characters would have defeated the purpose, but I'll soon address what I mean by listing this one.[/footnote], and Doctor Who come to mind[footnote]While I do love the way Who is handling female characters as compared to the classic Who, by sticking with a nearly all female sidekick cast they inevitably end up using the "female gets caught so the lead male has to rescue her" trope way more than I feel is necessary. That's not to say I don't love the show or the characters any less than I already do, it's just something that comes up as a story element way too often, I feel.[/footnote] To me, that sort of thing is falling into the trap of assuming that because we can sprinkle a few strong female characters into a story, we have as a society gotten over the gender roles and conventions of old.

But really, if we are truly over all this, then we shouldn't be getting a sprinkling of female characters. It would be either closer to an even split, or the characters wouldn't so obviously be there to be the "token females." There would be no "tokens," only characters. And stories that do have female leads wouldn't be about the lead character being a female. The Lord of the Rings had a male lead, but never did the movie consciously address any "issues" inherent to being a male. The story wasn't about Frodo being a guy, it was about him being the ringbearer. So many movies with female leads weave being a female into the narrative. It's as though they're afraid something will be missing if they don't in some way bring being a female into the narrative--like having her fight guys who are belittling her for her sex, or making it a story point that the villain is expecting a male but lo! In comes the unexpected female to be the hero!

And the same goes for racial minorities. We make a few movies like Remember the Titans or the Blind Side and celebrate how "over" racism we are, but who is almost always the lead character in an action movie? A white guy. You'll have the token black sidekick or friend for added touches of badass or comedy (because, as Moviebob once accurately pointed out, those are about the only flavors Hollywood will take black people in), but otherwise like females in lead parts you can't have a black guy in a lead role without the story somehow addressing that he isn't white. I can think of a few action movies with non-token black leads, but again that's just falling into the other trope of black characters having to either be comic relief or total badasses.

I will think we have gotten over all this when stories are comfortable having female or black or hispanic or Asian leads without having to explain themselves. When the story can unfold as normally and as uninvolved in social or gender politics as if the lead were a white guy.

I can't fault your logic, I can only point out that the list was of shows/movies where there was a female who fights a main/titled character and either holds her own/doesn't lose because she "just a woman"/wins the fight. At no point was I trying to say that women were equally represented or leading the show.

Dr Who does use the "sidekick gets kidnapped and the Doctor has to save them" plot device fairly regularly... but I've never actually recently seen that as "the sidekick is a female and so got herself captured" The companion is usually captured because they're the companion, or just in the wrong place at the wrong time. You are yourself perpetuating the female victim stereotype by assuming that because she's female, and needs saving, that its because she's female that she needs saving. I'm more likely to call the show sexist because they don't ever have a male primary companion. Also Rose, Donna and Amy have kicked just as much ass as the Doctor has... it's just his show.

The biggest problem with racism or sexism or anything like that is you can't celebrate difference without first pointing out that there is a difference.

 

[Jimmy T. Malice]

Beyond things like Oblivion giving females a strength drop and an endurance boost, I can't think of any.

That isn' sexist though, that's accurate. Physical tests between men and women have concluded that men are, as a general rule, faster and stronger at the start of, for example, a marathon, but women have longer endurance and are more resistant to pain at the end of the run.

Even biologically-accurate observations can be misinterpreted as sexist by people who are trying to be overly politically correct.

 

[chikusho]

And how is that even remotely relevant in a game where gates to hell open, there are bipedal, sentient cat-people and lizard-people and magic is an every day occurance? It is even less relevant since the protagonist of Oblivion obviously is a very special person, able to master in weeks what it takes most other people in the setting decades to master (especially when it comes to magic). As the final nail in the coffin of your argument, it isn't the cap that is maxed, it is the starting attribute, meaning that in the end a female character can be just as strong as a man.

I wouldn't exactly call it overt sexism on the part of Bethesda, but it definitely falls in the category of unintended sexism because something wasn't thought through enough. On the other hand, it is such a minor thing that I honestly think it doesn't matter much when put in context with how other games portray women.

Well, for one it's relevant to the setting, nature, culture and personal stories of the societies, races, species and characters you meet as well as the one you choose to create. Secondly it's relevant to the structure of a western style RPG where stats form a starting point form a template towards a possible play-style. Finally, it's relevant because having aspect of realism in a fantastical setting provides a relateable perspective from which to interpret the events taking place in front of you.
Also, as a sexism issue it's completely irrelevant because the fundamental structure of the game allows you to shape those stats whichever way you want to, as you are saying in your post (just like in the real world, where nothing is forbidding a woman to be physically stronger than any man).
Also, I wasn't making an argument at all, so what are you talking about again?

 

[The Artificially Prolonged]

When it comes to sexism in games I just struggle to care at all. I can't be the only one who just doesn't give a shit.

Nope, you're not. I too can't seem to bring myself to give a single flying fuck.

I do believe this is relevant to this topic though....

How many threads have we had over this and i'm still seeing the exact same debates we've seen in every single other "sexism in games" thread.

If you are going to start a new thread about it at least cover ground we haven't already seen at least 30 times in the past 2 weeks.

I have to agree. Over the last year hardly a week has gone by without some form of sexism debate which never goes anywhere expect the old pointless arguments. Frankly at this point we've broken all the sticks and have no horses left in the stable /silly analogy.

 

[Woiminkle]

If they're complete and utter bullshit then why did he say them? You know, other than to use "What I said was BS" as a cop out when someone calls him on it being... BS. Which... looks like has already happened. That was fast.

What he said has nothing to do with Dragonball Z. He was trying to prove a point, a point which completely flew over your head since you keep clinging to whether he got his facts 100% right or not. It doesn't matter. This thread is an example of people digging for an issue that isn't there.

He tried to prove a point and he failed pathetically because whether you want to admit it or not, misogyny is a real thing and there's no need to make it up when there's already plenty to go round. If I wanted to look for misogyny in Dragon Ball, I could look at the early series where there's at least two incidents involving Bulme's tits every episode or that one character they awkwardly wrote in who only existed so people could comment on her tits and make fun of what an airhead she was.

Super Princess Peach is blatantly misogynist because it perpetuates both the ridiculous notion that women have violent emotional outbursts while men don't and the notion that women use their emotions as tools to achieve their goals.

Again, misogyny does not equal sexism. You may claim as much as you like that the difference is only semantic but that will not make it true. Go and look up the definitions. They are very different things and while sexism can be explained by stupidity, laziness, a lack of empathy or social conditioning, misogyny is hatred of women pure and simple.
Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity.
The point is if you start out with an expectation of something you will only see evidence that confirms the opinion you already had before you started your research. It's called confirmation bias.

And are you saying women don't ever have violent emotional outbursts? Or that no woman ever faked crying to get what she wanted? Ever? In the whole of Earth's history? Are women special beings totally without flaws or human foibles and weaknesses?

This is the problem with some so-called modern "feminists", they have all the same opportunities as men (in the west at least) but still want to be thought of as victims of some imagined conspiracy and therefore somehow oppressed and deserving of special treatment. All the while ignoring real world statistics of female violence or excusing it by claiming the "patriarchy drove her to it", so no matter what a woman does it is still somehow mens fault.

 

[Reaper195]

Beyond things like Oblivion giving females a strength drop and an endurance boost, I can't think of any.

Lolwut, that actually happened?

 

[MeChaNiZ3D]

You know what I think of sexism in Mario?

Is Mario the real world? No. Does Mario try to portray or reflect the real world? No.

So whether it's sexist or not is irrelevant because Princess Peach being kidnapped by Bowser (besides being only a plot device) is understandable in the world of Mario. Not to mention all the other castles are filled with fucking Toads, which I think are male. The fact is, Princess Peach is vulnerable, is royalty, is all of those things, and therefore it makes sense that Bowser would kidnap her. If anything the games show Mario's ineptness at preventing her from being kidnapped.

I haven't played the game with her as protagonist, so I'm not going to comment on that except to say there are plenty of male characters whose main power is uncontrollable rage in some form or another.

I'm getting sick of people making issues out of non-issues. Princess Peach is a plot driver. If she were an expensive jewel the games would be no different except for the comedic sexual tension. Mario is set in its own universe and does not reflect the modern world. Princess Peach is just a vulnerable female, and there's no reason she shouldn't be given that she is a PRINCESS.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

So apparently reddit is having a bad effect on me because after yet another thread about Anita Sarkessian I was compelled to do a thread about this topic on my own but this time it's with a twist.

I think we can all sorta agree that blatant sexism and misogyny in narration is pretty bad, no matter the medium, right?

It depends if its intentional or not. Case in point, there is blatant racism and misogyny in the game The Suffering: Ties That Bind. However in the case of that game, it is done intentionally to add personality to two of the characters, Luther Stickwell [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64R5_GFf3Wc&t=1m23s] and Copperfield [http://thesuffering.wikia.com/wiki/Copperfield]

I mean tropes can be used pretty much universally in books, films and video games. But the thing is video games are special because of their interactivity and there are only few games that are inherently misogynistic in terms of gameplay. Yes, there are quite a few games which feature horrible and frankly stupid tropes of female character and do depict women in quite a sexist way. And if we seperate video games in terms of this interactivity we'll find that there aren't that many games which depict misogyny through gameplay (aside from porn games, I guess :/ )

Frankly, I can think of one off the top of my head:

Super Princess Peach on the Nintendo DS

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a9/Super_Princess_Peach.jpg/250px-Super_Princess_Peach.jpg

So we have finally a reversal of roles after all these years and her only power is SUPER PMSing? What the hell? It's been established before that she can use magic (Mario RPGs) and can kick ass (smash bros) and fucking fly (Super Mario Bros 2) and you give her RAGING EMOTIONS as gameplay mechanic, implying women are cunning, effectively heartless beasts that use emotions like other would use tools to control everyone around them? What the fuck, Nintendo, what the flying fuck?

Really? THAT is misogyny? Give me a break, sexist maybe but certainly not misogyny. You want to see misogyny in a game? Look at the game[footnote]The Suffering: Ties That Bind[/footnote] I just talked about, and watch the video about Luther Stickwell(aka "The Creeper") that I just linked. That is real misogyny, not this silly Nintendo game that your looking to much into. smh

... There is no way that this thread will derail in any way, isn't there?

No, how could it derail when you just used the two words "sexism" and "misogyny" interchangeably as if they were the same thing.

 

[JohnnyDelRay]

I'm surprised that it took this long for the majority to discover that anyone can make sexism out of anything if they really look hard enough, or even make something out of nothing. It's a tired discussion, sure, but it doesn't really bother me. I read a bit here and there and you know what, this controversy is good. What I DON'T want to see, though, is that game developers/writers feel that in order to appeal to a wider audience, they need to start making everything politically correct, which is bullshit - no other 'art' medium should have to conform to it, and neither should games. I see it already happening, not that there's anything wrong with making a politically correct game, just as long as it isn't forced in to sell to the masses if the original intent wasn't to be so.

But games are getting expensive to make, publishers need to make profits, and in the end there will also be a tug-of-war between the violence, sex & isms people want to see, and that which is safe enough to portray that everyone will like it.

 

[lacktheknack]

Beyond things like Oblivion giving females a strength drop and an endurance boost, I can't think of any.

Lolwut, that actually happened?

Yeah.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Races

More accurately, women tend to have higher personality and willpower (good for magery) and men have higher endurance and strength (good for warriors), with exceptions (Orcish women have abysmal personality, even worse than Orcish men) and oddities (female Argonians and Orcs are smarter than the men, with the rest of the races tied).

It didn't really matter, though, because the skill ceilings were identical.

 

[lacktheknack]

When it comes to sexism in games I just struggle to care at all. I can't be the only one who just doesn't give a shit.

-snip-

If you don't care, why do you bother reading these threads AND commenting?

Because I enjoy pointing out how much I don't care.

That is incredibly sad. I have nothing to add to that.

What makes it incredibly sad?

Your existence being so empty and devoid of meaning you had nothing you'd rather do than express your apathy towards the concerns of other's. It's so tragic I want to cry.

Maybe I've used up most of my caring towards the topic in the fifty other threads.

It's natural to care less about a problem as time goes on if it's always talked about but never truly addressed. If you're actively addressing it yourself (Mother Theresa and the poor, as an extreme example) or witnessing your caring having an actual effect (donating to a charity and seeing the results) or if the issue isn't talked about constantly all the time (elections), then it makes sense to keep caring. If the above three conditions fail (say, our observing and discussing sexism in games), then it becomes something to live with. Continuing to care just makes you obsessive.

If anything, we NEED the people who don't care to flood the threads and say so. Maybe the discussion amongst those who still care can be relegated to ONE thread, leaving the overloaded rest of us to have a break and regain our caring. It's much easier to ignore one thread rather than five.

 

[Woiminkle]

When it comes to sexism in games I just struggle to care at all. I can't be the only one who just doesn't give a shit.

-snip-

If you don't care, why do you bother reading these threads AND commenting?

Because I enjoy pointing out how much I don't care.

That is incredibly sad. I have nothing to add to that.

What makes it incredibly sad?

Your existence being so empty and devoid of meaning you had nothing you'd rather do than express your apathy towards the concerns of other's. It's so tragic I want to cry.

You know what's really sad JudgeGame is that you hold this opinion -

"So far I've always given the benefit of the doubt and assumed games are made by and designed for aggressively immature idiots who can't tell their ass from their elbow and aren't aware that actions speak volumes." (remember this quote from your "Critics ruin games......Good" thread)

And yet here you are posting in and creating topics in the gaming discussion section of a website that caters almost exclusively for people who enjoy playing video games.