Sexism in gameplay

[Piorn]

I'd claim 99% of all "Sexims" in any media, or in fact everywhere, stems not from Misogyny, but lazyness, stupidity or naivety.
Let's say you want 4 characters, but don't want 4 Nathan Drakes, what do you do? Take your 4 Nathan Drakes, make one black, one a woman and one really old. Add one cliché character trait for each, and *Bam*, instant variety for your characters.


Also, shoving irrelevant nitpicks into the "sexism" category devalues the cases where it's really a problem.

 

[Hagi]

I've held that it's not GAMES that bear a sexism problem, it's the GAMER COMMUNITY that has some 'splainin to do. Got evidence enough of that with Fluoextine and the tit for tat I had with him here....

I'd say they're probably interconnected. Can't really have one without the other. Without a few sexist games every now and then there likely wouldn't be a part of the gamer community acting as it is and without that part of the community those games wouldn't sell in turn.

 

[Uhura]

The list was clearly just a bit of a joke intended to underline how misunderstood sexism is on the Escapist, at times all those claims (or the converse) have been used as evidence of sexism, even in the face of their often contradictory nature.

It's a pretty bad joke. It's used to misrepresent and discredit the viewpoints of the "opposing side" by making them seem ridiculous (especially by picking statements that aren't very common at all, such as 'Not be subjected to violence'). It's disingenuous.

Could the issue be people in general aren't well represented in computer games, irrespective of gender? Ah... now that sounds like it's a dangerously balanced suggestion... but there's no one to blame, how will I feel superior to the rest of my gender now...???

Discussions about the poor representation of women in video games are not rendered pointless just because poor writing is a problem affecting both female and male characters.

 

[Frankster]

If you need a hint, well, do you see any statues of Julius Caesar's mother or Napoleon's wife?

Challenge accepted!

Empress Josephine actually has quite a few status in Paris at the very least, i'd wager there are more around France and maybe even in her native country too.

The more you know!

Despite intense searching, couldn't find evidence of a statue for Aurelia Cotta though. Challenge failed on that one.
Edit: Seems Aurelia Cotta did get her face on coins at some point though.

 

[Dr. Cakey]

-snip-

To provide a bit of context, many Japanese game studios--even the big ones--have been known to have...less than enlightened depictions of women, and are less likely to be concerned about it. For example, Team Ico has produced some of the most renowned video games in the last ~10 years in the way of both aesthetics and narrative. However, given the not-so-subtle elements in their stories, it's clear why their games haven't impressed the feminist crowd. In Shadow of the Colossus, the girl is dead and the guy is out to try and save her--what a shocking way to start a game. In Ico, you are a boy who is leading a girl by the hand through a maze of a temple because there is absolutely nothing she can do to help herself. She can't jump or climb without being instructed to, she can't defend herself or even hide, and she can't help you figure anything out. She's a mindless puppet you are literally dragging through the game who has no purpose except being an extra burden to watch out for.

Not only that, the guy from Team Ico leading the development of The Last Guardian [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Guardian#Development] stated that the reason they're going after a male protagonist in the game instead of a female (to break their boy's club streak) is because girls are weaker than boys and might not be able to tackle the physical labors the game would put her through. And not only that, some parts of the game would feature her climbing up stuff, and that would be terribly awkward to be seeing up her skirt during those times. Because God forbid she just wear trousers, and I never would have guessed that in a game where the main character has teamed up with and rides a giant griffin there would be some unusual or fantastical feats of physical prowess. You need some degree of realism to keep that giant griffin in check, amirite?

In this case, I'd say Ico and Shadow of the Colossus are non-sexist games made by sexist people. The key to Colossus's plot is that this guy is willing to do anything to get his wife back. There are only a handful of scenarios that have the emotional energy necessary to make "make a deal with the devil" seem sympathetic: trying to bring back a spouse, child, or possibly a sibling. And consider if the genders were flipped. It would be perceived as "a woman who can't live without a man in her life".

As for Ico, it gets a pass because it's too adorable ponies. It works decently because it has this sort of "fairy tale" feel to it, but having seen it (I admit I haven't played either of these games, only watched LPs of them) I deinitely think it would have been beneficial to increase Yorda's usefulness significantly, as much to make the game less frustrating as to make it less sexist.

Not to get all gender theory nitpicky on you, but this argument can be taken either way. If a game features a female protagonist, shouldn't it at least address the fact that she is a woman in some way? I mean, Lord of the Rings features a really heavy-handed theme about male bonding and friendship: Both with Sam and Frodo and with Legolas and Gimli, men who are ready to give up their dreams of a stable life with a good woman (Sam even addresses this specifically in the Two Towers) in favor of doing what is right and finding the needed companionship and caring with their fellow guys.

Obviously, a female lead should be more than just a woman, but it could be argued that just making her "a soldier" or "an adventurer" isn't really promoting female protagonists, it is just a palette swap of genders. Don't get me wrong, I agree with your idea that we need to downplay the fact that a female lead is a female and that that somehow makes her radically different from a male lead (via the inclusion of "I thought you were a guy" or some sorry attempt at a rape attempt/sexual harassment-storyline).

Let us look at one of the best female leads ever: Kate Archer. She is portrayed as a capable agent and that's the central part of the storyline, Kate doing her job and succeeding where most others fail. But the fact that she's a woman is also ever present and the game takes its' time to address the issue of being a woman in a man's world (and does it pretty well, considering how old the game is).

TL DR: In a good protagonist the choice of gender is informed and has a purpose other than marketing (ie. "Guys only like to play 30-something, brown haired dudes" or "If I am gonna stare at an ass for 30 hours, I want it to be a hot girls latex-clad ass"), that gender plays a part or is acknowledged throughout the story.

This sounds good, but I think it's really a mental trap. It's founded on the assumption that being "male" is the normal state and "female" is a unique state. Does there need to be an ingrained reason for a black character to be black? So while I agree that "write all your characters as guys and then flip the genders for half of them" is far from ideal, I think it's still better than "My main character is a woman. I guess now I need to talk about gender politics."

Here, TVTropes says it better than I can: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DifferentForGirls

----------------- Females in Games, According to the Whiners ---------------------------------

Representation
No women in a game: What a complete sausage fest, thanks for ignoring 50% of the world's population.[footnote]Call of Duty, FIFA[/footnote]
A few women: Patronising tokenism.[footnote]Streetfighter II, Golden Axe, just about every game ever made[/footnote]
"Too many" women: Ugh, clearly a male fantasy. These women are just interchangeable eye-candy, like some virtual harem![footnote]Dead or Alive[/footnote]
Exclusively women: PORN! PORN! Obviously porn![footnote]DOA Beach Volleyball, Skullgirls, at least prior to the "devs are wimminz" revelation which made most people do a 180 on their opinion[/footnote] (or alternatively) Patronising "Games for Girls" shit. This is the gaming equivalent of being made to sit at the back of the bus.[footnote]Cooking Mama, Nintendo DS Fairy Princess Horse Simulator 4, you know the kind of thing[/footnote]

Abilities
Equal to men: This doesn't reflect femininity or womanliness in any way. Stop trying to ignore female attributes and portraying maleness as the norm![footnote]WoW, Ms Pac Man, anything where the female is a re-skinned male default avatar[/footnote]
Different to men: Clear sexism! Difference is by definition disparity! You're valuing maleness over femaleness![footnote]Skyrim[/footnote]

Role in the game
Love interest: Great, so we're still relegated to being a "prize" or "reward" for the heroic male to inevitably "claim". Pass me the bucket, I'm about to vomit.
Has been kidnapped: Damsel in distress, eh? This implies all women are helpless and define themselves by their need for male help. Sexist.[footnote]Mario[/footnote]
Sidekick: Yet another reminder that males are superior and women are glorified mother/girlfriend surrogates.[footnote]Resident Evil 5, Halo[/footnote]
Optional lead role: The box art still has a man on it, so it's still demeaning and sidelining![footnote]Mass Effect[/footnote]
Lead role: Hmm, now we're getting somewhere. But if this lead is presented in an overly sexy way[footnote]Bayonetta[/footnote], conforms to any stereotypes (even for the sake of playing on and sending up those stereotypes)[footnote]Chainsaw Lolipop[/footnote] or includes anything I consider distasteful[footnote]Tomb Raider[/footnote] then I'll still call it out as sexist.

Eh, your point is fair, but from my perspective everything I've quoted here (that is, most of the list) really could be sexist, setting aside the specific examples in your footnotes. Which means that the problem isn't that female characters appear in this, that, or some other form, but there's some other, more accurate method of assessment we're not using.

So why is someone who "acts like a man" still a compliment, but to say someone "acts like a woman" is still an insult?

That's easy. Context. Something is an insult when it is a) intended as one and b) perceived as one. I personally can't think of a scenario where it wouldn't be used as an insult. So it is.

That's...pretty much how this whole "language" thing works.

 

[Epona]

Yay, another thread about sexism. Epic fun times. "Quick, look chaps there's a game and it's got girls in it and they aren't the main protagonist. Sexism. Rampant sexism". It's a bit silly, sexism is wrong, looking for sexism where there is none is just dull.

This.


Seriously. I'm sick of every single thing being subjected to the "is this sexist?" debate... Make a woman your main character and she's good looking? Sexist, clearly aiming at hormonal males. She's not good looking? Sexist, trying to imply only ugly women can be competent. Make her strong? Sexist - implies she has to have male characteristics to succeed. Make her weak? Sexist, implies women are weak.


Pretty much this:

If a videogame has a female character and no one plays it, is it still sexist?

At the moment it looks like in order to not be a sexist game a female character must be all of the below
1. Intelligent
2. Rational
3. Attractive
4. Not too attractive
5. Conservatively dressed
6. Independent
7. Single
8. Not be subjected to violence
9. Be able to inflict violence
10. Not embody "male characteristics"
11. Not embody "female characteristics"
12. Not have their gender apply to any aspect of the story
13. Cannot be a silent protagonist
14. Not show any signs of vulnerability

EVERYTHING IS SEXIST!

As I said in another thread, women are ALWAYS the victim...no matter what happens. I am surprised so few people see this.

 

[Batou667]

There is difference between the sexes and I think that should be recognised and even celebrated, and the conclusion needn't necessarily be that X is better than Y or vice-versa.

But for all that talk, humanity has, and always will, reward one set of differences far beyond over the other. Guess which one?

If you need a hint, well, do you see any statues of Julius Caesar's mother or Napoleon's wife?

Always has? By and large, granted.

Always will? That doesn't necessarily follow. I think at this point in our society's development that equality is all but inevitable. Nothing short of some ultra-conservative or religious cultural revolution would get women back in the kitchen.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

This sounds good, but I think it's really a mental trap. It's founded on the assumption that being "male" is the normal state and "female" is a unique state. Does there need to be an ingrained reason for a black character to be black? So while I agree that "write all your characters as guys and then flip the genders for half of them" is far from ideal, I think it's still better than "My main character is a woman. I guess now I need to talk about gender politics."

Here, TVTropes says it better than I can: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DifferentForGirls

Might be yes, I'd rather see it as a reflection of the idea that both men and women have unique experiences owing to their gender and that acknowledging this difference in experiences makes for better characters. I am not saying that every female character needs to come with at least one significant storyline which is a thinly veiled excuse for spouting feminist ideals.

Obviously, there are times when this doesn't matter, no matter which gender the protagonist is. Call of Duty has never been big on characterization and it should be acknowledged that a female protagonist in CoD really shouldn't be expected to be anymore characterized than "hardcore special forces badass".

But if a storyline aims to explore the character in-depth, simple gender flipping simply isn't enough (even though it is light years better than most female characters of today) because of the aforementioned difference in experiences. It need not be anything spectacular, just a nod to the fact that a female protagonist most likely had different social pressure than a male protagonist.

 

[MagunBFP]

There is difference between the sexes and I think that should be recognised and even celebrated, and the conclusion needn't necessarily be that X is better than Y or vice-versa.

But for all that talk, humanity has, and always will, reward one set of differences far beyond over the other. Guess which one?

If you need a hint, well, do you see any statues of Julius Caesar's mother or Napoleon's wife?

While I see the point you're attempting to make that there are more statues of men then women, you've used terrible examples.

You have identified these two women solely by their connection to their respective male. Julius Ceasar's mother, Napoleon's wife. What you seem to be suggesting is that they should have statues made because they're women connected to men who ruled parts of the world, not because these women actually accomplished anything for themself.

Also I was of the understanding that identifying women based on a males accomplishments was sexist as it suggests that she has nothing noteworthy to identify herself.

Always will? That doesn't necessarily follow. I think at this point in our society's development that equality is all but inevitable. Nothing short of some ultra-conservative or religious cultural revolution would get women back in the kitchen.

Umm, yes, it always will, unless you can forsee a future where achievement, aggression, ambition, logical thinking and individuality, all hallmarks of "male thinking" suddenly are adverse to success.

WOW!!! Sexist much? Achievement, Aggression, Ambition, Logical Thinking and Individuality are all male qualities? I really hope I'm missing some kind of subtext/sarcasm font here because otherwise you're suggesting that there are no aggressive women? That there are no ambitious, or logical women? That all women are just sheep and lack individuality?

As we are so often reminded anything a man can do a woman can do as well, if success relies on these qualities and women can't be successful because these qualities are gender-reliant then you are clearly making a case for a massive difference between the genders.

 

[Lovely Mixture]

In Ico, you are a boy who is leading a girl by the hand through a maze of a temple because there is absolutely nothing she can do to help herself. She can't jump or climb without being instructed to, she can't defend herself or even hide, and she can't help you figure anything out. She's a mindless puppet you are literally dragging through the game who has no purpose except being an extra burden to watch out for.



Not only that, the guy from Team Ico leading the development of The Last Guardian [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Guardian#Development] stated that the reason they're going after a male protagonist in the game instead of a female (to break their boy's club streak) is because girls are weaker than boys and might not be able to tackle the physical labors the game would put her through. And not only that, some parts of the game would feature her climbing up stuff, and that would be terribly awkward to be seeing up her skirt during those times. Because God forbid she just wear trousers, and I never would have guessed that in a game where the main character has teamed up with and rides a giant griffin there would be some unusual or fantastical feats of physical prowess. You need some degree of realism to keep that giant griffin in check, amirite?

You wouldn't catch an American or European developer saying something like that in a million years. And if they did say it, they'd be promptly removed from the project and their studio would begin cleaning up the mess as soon as possible. And yet it came out of Japan, just last year. Not that I'm saying everything that comes out of Japan is sexist, however if I had to put every part of the industry on a spectrum of "sexism," I think most Japanese developers would land themselves on the more "sexist" end.

Anyway, now to your challenge of finding games that have sexism in gameplay. Well Ico as I mentioned, there isn't really anything you can call dragging a completely incapable female character throughout a game by the hand except sexist. As cool as the environments and storytelling might be, you really can't get around how messed-up that is. Also, and I don't know if it's true, but I heard in the early Pokemon games that featured female pokemon, the females always had slightly lower stats than the male pokemon of the same level. And...that's all I've got for now. Toodles~

In Ico, you are a boy who is leading a girl by the hand through a maze of a temple because there is absolutely nothing she can do to help herself. She can't jump or climb without being instructed to, she can't defend herself or even hide, and she can't help you figure anything out. She's a mindless puppet you are literally dragging through the game who has no purpose except being an extra burden to watch out for.

Well Ico as I mentioned, there isn't really anything you can call dragging a completely incapable female character throughout a game by the hand except sexist.

No no no, Ico is not sexist. Two children, caring for each other is not sexist. And you have not done your research on the game (are you Sarkeesian by chance?)

1. Without her you cannot unlock the doors, ergo without her Ico is trapped.
2. Losing her results in a game over, she is the ONE thing keeping the castle from being petrified (such a useless burden eh?)
3. She is frail and confused for a reason, she has been literally imprisoned by her mother for her entire life in an abandoned castle and IN A CAGE. She is understandably terrified of the shadow sprites and has no idea that there is an world outside the castle.
4. There are several huge plot heavy moments in which she acts on her own accord and helps Ico.


Shadow of the Colossus is not sexist, there is no problem with a person risking his/her life for a loved one REGARDLESS of gender. If Shadow of the Colossus is sexist, so is the story that your avatar comes from.

Their justification on the Last Guardian bit? Yes, I think that's sexist or at least incredibly short-sighted and stupid, I'm disappointed in them for that. But it does not retroactively make their previous games sexist, that's not how things work.

 

[Lilani]

No no no, Ico is not sexist. Two children, caring for each other is not sexist. And you have not done your research on the game (are you Sarkeesian by chance?)

1. Without her you cannot unlock the doors, ergo without her Ico is trapped.
2. Losing her results in a game over, she is the ONE thing keeping the castle from being petrified (such a useless burden eh?)
3. She is frail and confused for a reason, she has been literally imprisoned by her mother for her entire life in an abandoned castle and IN A CAGE. She is understandably terrified of the shadow sprites.
4. There are several huge plot heavy moments in which she acts on her own accord and helps Ico.

Shadow of the Colossus is not sexist, there is no problem with a person risking his/her life for a loved one REGARDLESS of gender. If Shadow of the Colossus is sexist, so is the story that your avatar comes from.

Their justification on the Last Guardian bit? Yes, I think that's sexist or at least incredibly short-sighted and stupid, I'm disappointed in them for that. But it does not retroactively make their previous games sexist, that's not how things work.

To be perfectly honest, I didn't get but probably 1/4 through the game before putting it down, and I haven't gone back since. Yes, I understand how two children caring for each other during an adventure is cute and compelling, but that isn't what I experienced. All I remember is dragging this useless little fucker all over a stupid temple while doing just about everything for her except breathing. All those other nuances I didn't know about, and I might care about her greater role in the grand scheme if she wasn't such a helpless little shit who won't even run away when she's in danger. I don't care if she has no way to fight, but surely a bit of running without being dragged along isn't beyond her abilities.

Also, pretty much all of the roles you described could just as easily be filled by a magic staff or any other inanimate object. Holding up the castle through magical powers? Totally sounds like something a magic staff can do to me. And it wouldn't be the first time shadow people went after a magic object in a story. And some staves have been known to do things "on their own" to help protagonists at key points.

Also, if the rationale behind having a male protagonist in Last Guardian is that a girl couldn't or shouldn't be able to do it, then yes. That does make it sexist in a way. "A male character just seemed to fit best" is a lot better of a reason for having a male protagonist than "Girls are weak and it's awkward looking up their skirts."

 

[Boogie Knight]

I got the white Assassin's Creed Vita because as a whole it had more value than getting the regular Vita to play Persona 4: The Golden. However, I did play a marginal amount of Assassin's Creed: Liberation and I thought it was a tad curious that playing dress up was a core mechanic. Don't get me wrong, swapping out guises in a game that theoretically is about sneaking about and stabbing sounds like a good idea. Yet, the fact that this mechanic was introduced with the first female Assassin protagonist made me scratch my head a little. May not be sexism since the "don't bomb us" disclaimer insists that it was made by a multicultural team of many beliefs and such, but did anyone have a chat about how it might look bad?

 

[Batou667]

Always will? That doesn't necessarily follow. I think at this point in our society's development that equality is all but inevitable. Nothing short of some ultra-conservative or religious cultural revolution would get women back in the kitchen.

Umm, yes, it always will, unless you can forsee a future where achievement, aggression, ambition, logical thinking and individuality, all hallmarks of "male thinking" suddenly are adverse to success.

Ah, but now we're not talking about sex any more, we're talking gender roles. I think that gender roles can, and will, change, and at any rate the qualities you listed aren't exclusively male.

 

[MagunBFP]

I got the white Assassin's Creed Vita because as a whole it had more value than getting the regular Vita to play Persona 4: The Golden. However, I did play a marginal amount of Assassin's Creed: Liberation and I thought it was a tad curious that playing dress up was a core mechanic. Don't get me wrong, swapping out guises in a game that theoretically is about sneaking about and stabbing sounds like a good idea. Yet, the fact that this mechanic was introduced with the first female Assassin protagonist made me scratch my head a little. May not be sexism since the "don't bomb us" disclaimer insists that it was made by a multicultural team of many beliefs and such, but did anyone have a chat about how it might look bad?

So a good game mechanic (and I'll take your word for it as I haven't played it at all) should have not been included because they were introducing a female character? Or possibily they should have delayed the female character until the next release after the dress up mechanic was implemented... don't you think then people would be saying a) if the female assassin came first that the developers saw the female assassin and decided she needs to play dressup? SEXIST! or b) if the dressup came first that people would say the developers saw dressup and thought "girls like to play dressup? SEXIST!

It's pretty much a damned if you do, damned if you don't kind of thing. The developer might not be sexist, but as soon as someone "sees" sexism it really doesn't matter what they intended or were thinking, they just get the label, and we get yet another "is this sexism?" threads

 

[Boogie Knight]

No no no, Ico is not sexist. Two children, caring for each other is not sexist. And you have not done your research on the game (are you Sarkeesian by chance?)

1. Without her you cannot unlock the doors, ergo without her Ico is trapped.
2. Losing her results in a game over, she is the ONE thing keeping the castle from being petrified (such a useless burden eh?)
3. She is frail and confused for a reason, she has been literally imprisoned by her mother for her entire life in an abandoned castle and IN A CAGE. She is understandably terrified of the shadow sprites and has no idea that there is an world outside the castle.
4. There are several huge plot heavy moments in which she acts on her own accord and helps Ico.


(not sure if I accidentally undid the quotes thing)

Okay, this really bugs me when an individual argues that something is not sexist by throwing up a series of bullet points which read waaaay too much into something. Especially the "they're useful" argument. Slaves are useful, but that doesn't make the institution any less demeaning and dehumanizing. However, I think there are people who are extremely thin skinned and are also professional agitators so they will see sexism/racism/homophobia in otherwise innocuous things. Not waving a banner for women's rights doesn't make one sexist, nor does having a female character who is fragile and vulnerable.

The permanently offended will look at any fictional character of their group identity and raise cane if that character doesn't project the desired strong image. Bluntly, I think this speaks more to their shallow nature and inability to face insecurities. The single greatest cure to the -isms in fiction is good characters with layers and depth of all races, colors, and creeds. However, the single greatest obstacle to that cure is not entrenched bigotry but the hard reality that good characterization is so rare, because that kind of talent is inherently rare.

Further, from what I've played of the Team Ico games, they're minimalist fairy tales. They're flights of fancy, and it may not be the best vehicle for communicating nuanced characters because it uses readily available archetypes as a shorthand. Might theses archetypes be less than forward thinking? Oh hell yes, but damning the games for not advancing a social/political agenda is not where the battle needs to be fought. And people who want to defend these games to think more deeply rather than come up with lame arguments in the futile effort of proving a negative.