Sexism in gaming, do we really give a f**k?

[Jenvas1306]

you dont think that games 'DOA: extreme beach volleyball', are getting into the realm of 'very creepy' if you look at them and know that folks actually get off to that?

Sure & people get off to pictures of feet too. So what?

If you personally don't like DOA, then don't purchase it, don't play it: These are rights you have. The right you don't have is to complain that it exists & as such should not exist, because you don't like it. Your right to dislike it, cannot infringe on the rights of someone else to like it: Regardless of what you personally think about the property, or the people who play it.

that DOA game might be a bad example as it doesnt offer much else, but how about Bayonetta? An actual female lead character that is nothing more than style, so over drawn that she looks deformed. She is not made attractive by being interessting so you would relate to her, she only gets that weird sexy librarian thing going on with her. She is made to be ogled, posing and being sexy, not as a character to relate to, but as an object to attract to in fairly simple way.

And there we go to the shaming, looking upon women as objects should be shameful, but not for the reason that it reduces your chances of actually getting laid, the issue is that you look at people as if they were objects and lots of games promote that view.

 

[Batou667]

What really gets me isn't so much the content, or how it "makes the industry look", or whether it's embarrassing (or ought to be) or does it alienate female gamers. What irks me is how fucking popular and trendy it is to wax lyrical on the subject, presumably in a self-aggrandising attempt to display your progressive credentials like a peacock.

"Ooh, look at me! I'm in touch with women's issues! I can make beard-stroking observations on the content of a form of media! On a particularly good day I can even make links with the existing trends in society and other forms of media! I'm also an up-and-coming voice in the field of videogaming; see how concerned I am about inclusion, witness how worried I am about the layman's impression of our hobby. But I'll still throw in a few backhanded suggestions that actually I do quite like sexism in games on a carnal, base level, because that shows what a humble and grounded individual I am, and serves as a handy reminder that I'm a red-blooded heterosexual! (ladies...)[footnote]"Do you know what I find sexy? A man who spends hours a day passionately arguing about political correctness on the internet. Mmm-mmm, I'd grab me a hunk of that!" - said no woman, ever.[/footnote]

Videogaming is an increasingly broad medium with an increasingly broad userbase. Different strokes for different folks, and all that. And if you don't like a particular offering? If it doesn't appeal to you, leaves you feeling indifferent, or you suspect that the content may not be to your taste? Don't buy the bastard thing. It really is that simple.

Do you suppose that there are DVD forums out there where a good proportion of the discussion accompanying that month's releases are agonised introspections about whether Naughty Nurses XXX volume 17 is "poor publicity for the medium - people will think that everybody who owns a DVD player is a masturbating adolescent!", or whether Teenage Horror Slashfest IV is "reflecting badly on our hobby with its depiction of women - can you blame women for not buying DVD players when these titles are on the shelves?" - of course bloody not. With every other form of media, people are wholly willing to judge each title on its individual merits. Don't like a book? Don't read it. Think a Tracey Emin piece is garbage? Don't go to the exhibition. Not a fan of Tarantino's films? Watch something else.

But if a game dares to be distasteful, or cliched, or doesn't tick enough liberal, progressive boxes? Quick, to the Internet! Our hobby needs us to loudly declaim it!

I think us gamers are often guilty of living in a bubble, and vainly imagining that the universe ends at the bubble's surface. To us, games are important. But let's keep a sense of perspective. Games are a small subsection of popular media. Games didn't invent sex, or sexism, or violence. Those already existed in the real world. Similarly, tropes (of the Sarkeesian variety) also existed completely outside of videogaming. So why do we limit our focus to games when we decide to make a stand and "change the world"? Rounding on the games industry, or Developer X or Publisher Y, for daring to show some cleavage, or catering to the hairy-palm demographic, or suggesting that killing brown people is OK, is completely ass-about-tit. That's like hearing your 6-year old experiment with swearwords for the first time, performing a tracheotomy on him, and concluding "no more swearing - job well done!" You have a problem with sexism? Then that's a problem society has, not just gaming.

But when it comes to it, whatever happened to "if you don't like it, don't buy it"? Vote with your wallet. One missed sale speaks louder to a publisher than a 10,000-word diatribe on sexism and gender roles.

 

[Fidchell Attano]

I just don't really see it is an issue. If we want to talk about character design what about this?

Look at them big burly men, with their big over exaggerated arms, and their tiny heads. With marcus fenix holding his gun like its a large semi erect penis. Its fucking faggy. Yet none of us complained, no one complained, many of us liked the gow games (they suck btw).

But is this over masculine portrayal any worse than the over sexualised depiction of women in video games. Its rooted in the same place, its rooted in "fantasy". Now i could understand the commotion if Madison Paige was dressed like a hooters waitress in heavy rain. Or if Alyx Vance ran around in HL2 in nothing but slabs of steak pinned to her vadge and breasts. But they don't because its a different type of fantasy.

Lets bring this old chestnut up.

There was uproar when that trailer was released, personally i found the trailer hilarious, and have you played the game? It's so tongue in cheek how are we meant to take any depictions of any demographic seriously in that game seriously? Yet a vocal proportion of the game industry was prepared to donate their testicles and wang in the name of feminism.

I think the real problem here is something closer to home. The fact that many gamers probably aint the coolest of people, and the biggest of studs. Hell i split up with my partner six months ago and have got laid once. I think its more a problem of social inadequacy with women more than anything.

My point is, all the characters that are portrayed in an over the top fashion are our bedroom fantasies. Those that are standing up for feminism need to take a think why they feel such the need and should maybe go protest at record labels who produce manufactired girl groups then market them to teenage girls, indirectly promoting a highly sexualised image of women. Let me have my bedroom fantasy if im the demographic the dev is aiming for. I watch porn but i didn't become a plumber thinking i would get to bang loads of chicks. I would of become a pool boy for that.

anyway i just got in from the pub, I'm probably talking out my ass.

Edit: Also I'm not saying there isn't sexism in the industry, I'm just saying its being chased in the wrong places.

Edit 2: For anyone else who reads this, the post was supposed to be satirical, since i find the whole thing ridiculous. Sorry if i was to subtle when i said i would of become a pool boy to bang chicks, or when i said marcus fenix is holding his gun like a semi erect penis.

I think this is a part of the problem of which a friend of mine, and my sister spoke. "Lets not think feminism is a problem in gaming, because men are exploited in the same way, but you don't see us complaining." But see, men hold power, women are seen as second priority-individuals as far as importance and respect, I feel women should be seen as equals, but this is simply not the way to put men and women on the same pedestal. One is exploited, so lets "exploit" the other one. To be honest, turning men into overly muscle-bound killing machines isn't really exploiting, because the image does not affect us as much. Why? Because men are holding the cards. The Hitman image will piss women off though, why? They aren't holding any cards, and to them it is just another image men push forward telling them how to look.

I care about women's rights and all, and I feel the designs of the nuns could have been less......Tasteless. However, I will not deny that I would tap that ass first chance I got. Hot hit-women n all that, lol.

I try not to think about the misogyny and misandry in games and just enjoy them.

 

[Entitled]

Interesting. After reading through the thread. It seems the quick draw feminists are creating a "boy who cried wolf" scenario for alot of people. To many things blown out of proportion or context is actually making it harder to get people to care about their cause.

I would say, it's more like it can't be helped that if any discussion that people have strong opinions about is frequently brought up, people WILL react to it negatively.

Like any discussion, feminism will have it's badly expressed apologists, and negative examples.

But if unlike most other discussions, feminism is reacted to with allcaps raging, tens of pages of forum threads every time, walls of text, and cries of how bored people are with this issue, you can kind of suspect that there is more behind this than just honest boredom.

So it can't be helped, these issues that people claim to be bored of and dismiss as "blown out of proportion" still need to be discussed. Yes, that side won't be convinced overnight, so they need to be silenced over a longer time. The solution still can't be NOT TO DISCUSS these problems, after all.

It's the same as with Gay Pride marches. There is always this huge mass of people who claim that they "ain't hating no homos", yet they still find such marches off-putting and pointless, and people just plainly shouldn't advertise their sexuality. Yet do you still think that gay rights would be at a better position, without Gay Pride movement?

Sometimes loudly and obnixiously forcing the world to admit that you exist in the first place, is more important than appearing very appropriately "moderate", and shwing that you still "know your place", as if seeking the approval of conservatives.

 

[dontworryaboutit]

You know, this whole "don't buy it if you don't like it" thing would be great. If it actually worked, and if the images and messages you are daily bombarded with didn't actively shape the way you view the world, whether you choose to realize that or not. Even if you don't buy it, chances are somebody is. Sexism in pop culture exists within a larger context, that is true. But this context is a society in which violence against women is normalized, and dehumanizing representations of women in media both perpetuate and seek to justify this violence.

 

[Silvanus]

Classic, really. People complain that too much attention is focused on "sexism", but the thread becomes an overwhelming whirlpool of "I don't care!", "Well, I super don't care even more!", "Look! I don't give a shit thiiiiis much!"



Don't act as if the feminists dominate this debate. They don't. The "We don't care! Getoverit, Jeez!" crowd dominate this debate.

The same crowd, by and large, would scream bloody murder if games started depicting their male characters as gimps or semen-factories, with a woman being your only option for a strong, leading personality. If that happened, the very same crowd would degenerate into a whirling rage of, "Gawd!! Feminism is just ridiculous! Lookit what it did now, why can't games just get back to the natural order of things?!"

 

[generals3]

What I asked is why would one ACTIVELY OPPOSE that SOME GAMES not have all the women sexualized? Is it that important that EVERY SINGLE WOMAN IN THE GAME be a source of titilation.

No they aren't: As has been demonstrated.

You have demonstrated nothing.

Now before you post a picture of miscellaneous female NPC#6 keep in mind I was referring to the leading females i.e. companions.

Spoiler

Now sure those characters weren't the protagonists but they were very important to the story and not just random npc's. And i would also refer to the avatars in EVE online which can't even be sexualized in an over the top manner (the most you can do is only have it wear a sleeveless shirt with a big pair of tits)

There are plenty of games with appropriate depictions. And there is nothing wrong with people preferring depictions you find inappropriate. And why would they oppose it? Simple, because for them it would make the game less enjoyable. If it bothers you that much, do what i do, don't play those games. And off course it is well within your right to try and get more devs to do things your way. But you can't just dismiss an entire opinion as inherently wrong.

 

[flarty]

Quote fail

You cant say you only oppose sexism in one are of media or life then say you don't care about it in another because it doesn't affect you. That's not being against discrimination at all. That is just self serving and being selfishly worried about how something affects you. You don't need to know about the music industry to clearly see that only good looking women are marketed in a sexualised way to young teenage girls. Or that mainstream hip hop is sexist in the way it refers to women as bitches and the way they are portrayed in their music videos.

This is not a circular argument, this is what you are stating without even realising it.

Ahh, the 'This is what your actually saying, you just don't know it' point... man, I missed these kinds of arguments.

Anyway, you seem to have misinterpreted my 'Not involved in the music industry' as 'I do not care about sexism in the music industry'. By 'not involved in the music industry', I mean Not involved in the music industry. The music industry could explode tomorrow and I wouldn't hear a damn thing. It is a single, glorious, brilliant facet of the gem of life that I have absolutely nothing to do with. You say 'Only good looking women are marketed in a sexualised way to young teenage girls' - I never knew this, because *pause for dramatic effect* I AM NOT INVOLVED IN THE MUSIC INDUSTRY. I know literally nothing about the music industry, and as such don't bother getting involved in it because it would be completely pointless - people who genuinely care and have knowledge of the problems in the music industry will fair much better discussing sexual discrimination within the music industry than I, who would mostly faff about making a complete arse of himself trying to discuss said problems in the music industry.

I know video games. I know literature. I know real life (you know, that thing outside media that you can discuss without media references? That thing?). I know University policies and groups. I know Science. I do not know the music industry. I discuss the problems in the fields I know because I possess knowledge about these problems and can discuss them. I do not discuss problems in fields I do not know because I do not possess knowledge about the problems in those fields. This does not make me 'not against discrimination' (again, real life, that great big thing outside media that you can discuss without media but still influences media. You know what I'm talking about, right?). Does it make me selfish? Probably - I prefer to think of it as 'picking my battles', in this case by picking the battles I have both a map of and know who the hell I'm going up against.

I stopped reading your post as you seem to expect me to believe you have heard of the pussy cat dolls, or heard busta rhymes talking bout his "bitches" or even just seen any pop music video in the last decade. Plus you keep telling me you give zero fucks about the music industry. Regardless that i have told you that they market sexist and sexualised images of women. Your reaction is still i don't give a fuck about the music industry. That is not standing against sexism or exploitation of women.

Guess what I'm not in the music industry, but i can still see what they are selling. Don't try and argue against sexism in games then say i cant comment on the music industry because I'm not involved in it. I was never involved in the Iraq war but i still opposed it.

Circular argument, you were right, you fail to take responsibility for what you said.

I don't go and discuss sexism at the music labels because I give zero fucks about the music industry and don't interact with it beyond buying music.

 

[Azure23]

Some of the posts in this thread have been painful to read, both because they're so poorly worded and thought out, and because they're so incredibly misinformed.
For all of you saying different variations of "men in gaming are portrayed as idealized forms too!" It's the simple matter that most protagonists are MALE POWER FANTASIES. That "faggy" picture of big dumb Marcus looking so manly and virile with his erect lancer exists because the devs and publishers think that male gamers want to be a powerful male figure. So if the male characters in gaming are made for men, and the women in gaming are undeniably made for men, is it sexist? No fucking shit it is. Are you a gamer who is proud of his/her pastime and want to see it grow as a respected medium? Then you should care.

 

[flarty]

6 pages of straight guys claiming to be ambivalent about sexism? Bunch of liars. If you didn't give a f**k you wouldn't have bothered to post.

Personally I do give a f**k. I happen to like having women around and the misogynistic attitudes about women in the gaming community, especially among the pre-pubescent fps crew, just plain pisses me off. We need to grow the f**k up. The vast majority of us are way too old to continue to indulge this ridiculous "girls are yucky" rut.

Erm we are talking about the portrayal of fictional female characters in video games. Is it really a big an issue as its being made out to be.

 

[Jenvas1306]

that DOA game might be a bad example as it doesnt offer much else, but how about Bayonetta?

I'm sorry but how do you think this example change the paradigm?

Your dislike or disinterest in this property, or any other is fine, right up until it infringes on the creator, or the rights of those people who do like, or have an interest in the property.

However trying to find ways in which you can justify your dislike as an actual issue or problem that requires fixing, such as milks "light armor" issue, is not a dislike or disinterest, its an attempt to stop the existance of said property. You are trying to turn public opinion, as a way to enforce your own predilicition or preferences.

well I am certainly striving for world domination...
Point is, that i like to see others show that they dont like oversexualisation, that game devs should not plunge it in to hope to increase sales at the expense of actually developing a character.
I love games and I want better games, I want game devs and publishers that want to make good characters, good story and good gameplay in variing focusses. I do not like games that try to sell with sexyness when it is just unfitting and has only the justification that a character happens to be female.
I do not need to be dead inside to vocalize opinions, I do not need to be a super-hive mind to have an opinion. As an individual I am entiteled to my own opinion and as a part of the human race I think that others share some of my views and everday experiance reinforces that thinking.
I do not try to turn public opinions, I do not poison the tapwater, nor do i put messeges into music or the like.
Someone asks if we give a fuck and I as part of the we, I do give a fuck or two about it and express that.

On a personal note, you are very unpleasant to discuss with as you seem to just do it for the sake of discussing, not for enhancing your view by that of others or cause you actually have strong opinions of your own.

 

[omega 616]

snip

snip

snip

I would comment on all of this but to be honest, I'm really tired of forums (not just this one) ability to take the fun out of gaming. So instead of arguing about whatever the fuck topic is meant to be discussed in this thread(it says "Sexism in gaming, do we really give a f**k?" but that isn't the subject), I am going to do the only logical thing ... instead of talking about games, play the fucking things!

Enjoy them and stop pissing and moaning about whatever minor grievance annoyed you this time.