Should Feminism and Gaming Mix?
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Yep. And watched it played. Repetition and janky-as-fuck controls are only half the problem, it's also achingly linear, silly short, and is saddled with deeply mediocre writing and plotting.carnex said:
It's just a bad game. There really isn't a single thing to distinguish it beyond the fact it has (gasp) a female protagonist, and not even a particularly interesting one at that.
I think that story was about Day-z. I remember hearing something about that.
In that instance, and if the story is true... The woman in question was being an utter arse.
I don't think I really understand the rest of the point. People can really view things through whatever the hell lens they wish, they can ask for what they want... It'll do fuck all if what they want is sufficiently niche that it's not really viable, but that's really yet to be seen.
I dunno, man. All the waffle is very waffley, and I don't care for waffles all that much. Should be interesting to see how things play out.
In that instance, and if the story is true... The woman in question was being an utter arse.
I don't think I really understand the rest of the point. People can really view things through whatever the hell lens they wish, they can ask for what they want... It'll do fuck all if what they want is sufficiently niche that it's not really viable, but that's really yet to be seen.
I dunno, man. All the waffle is very waffley, and I don't care for waffles all that much. Should be interesting to see how things play out.
Should Feminism and Gaming mix? Yes. Absolutely. Feminism and everything should mix and everything and gaming should mix. Because that's how art works. If a writer wants to push a Feminist agenda through a videogame, then why not? The mere question here implies that you see gaming as some kind of safe haven where the complex issues of society aren't allowed to affect us, but hey, I like to play my games socially. I do not own games that I'm not prepared to play in company. I tried watching a Let's Play (Rustlemania, to be exact) of Rumble Roses XX and I couldn't even get fifteen minutes in without the game making me legitimately uncomfortable.
Sure, I'm a fan of the female body, but I'd like to appreciate its form without getting my controller greasy. There are websites for 'art appreciation'. Keep your softcore out of my games. It's not a Feminist viewpoint I'm speaking from, nor even one for equality.
Just one for realistic portrayal, decent writing and good old fashioned pride in my hobby.
Sure, I'm a fan of the female body, but I'd like to appreciate its form without getting my controller greasy. There are websites for 'art appreciation'. Keep your softcore out of my games. It's not a Feminist viewpoint I'm speaking from, nor even one for equality.
Just one for realistic portrayal, decent writing and good old fashioned pride in my hobby.
I always find these things weird. A lot of people complain about feminism but support feminist ideals. A lot of people oppose Obamacare, but when asked about the component parts will generally support all of them.Catrixa said:
So what's the problem? Branding. The last 30 years, especially, have been brutal for causes that are even remotely progressive. What's more, it's people outside the cause that dictate what the cause is.
Sadly, it's not...The Twilight Zone.
Unfroatunately, I ask that question to them a lot, and they tend not to be able to give a solid answer. They don't tend to think about it because it generates cognitive dissonance.
Understandable though it may be, it's often a double standard. Look at the Dragon's Crown debacle. People want feminists to shut up because they don't like the way they made a big stink about DC, but...Who made the stink? DC fans got offended by a single review (Note that the Escapist one of a similar but slightly lower score got almost no attention). They stirred up a shitstorm and if there was any significant "feminist" response, it was in fact a response to the controversy. But it's those DAMN FEMINISTS who are ruining everything!
I said something similar in response, too. Mostly, that "chick flicks" do exist, but not to the exclusivity of the rest of the "AAA" market in film. The equivalent to the AAA market would be if there were virtually no "action" movies because they sold only chick flicks and the male market was told that they simply weren't a big enough demographic to bother with. Or that they didn't test well in female-only marketing groups.
On a similar note to that, I always was amused by the whole complaints about Lifetime and other "TV for women" and even the whole Spike TV thing.
"Why is there TV for women? What about TV for men?" Honey, that's like, 80% of the TV dial, and was at one point almost 100% of prime time. I mean, Spike TV SHOULD be a dead giveaway. Its "for men" programming is (I should say, was, since I haven't had cable in over 5 years and can't tell you what's on any given network) largely syndicated shows replayed from other networks, movies that are often played by other networks, and shows that are clones of those on other networks. But FINALLY, a network for men!
That's not to say women couldn't enjoy other programming, but that was never really at issue here.
And yeah, games are generally identified a a different media. Until, evidently, the women want in. Then it's "honey, we got this. Go back to your stories."
I don't think you missed anything.
The poster spoke to being a homosexual activist, so unless your argument is solely a pedantic one I fail to see how it's different.Carpenter said:
Someone who focuses on homosexual advocacy, regardless of their stance on other issues, is calling out people with a focus on female advocacy.
Point stands.
Be happy I only use my powers for good.carnex said:
But think of the topical nature you could do with that? The recent political upheavals? But with penguins too to be child friendly- er... better not I suppose.
Yes I do but there are so many types of feminism you can't just sweep it all under one label feminists fight among themselves as well.
But my god what the hell is wrong with people why is there so much talk about this stuff there has been more feminist forums on the escapist then there have been about specific games. Then there is the blistering stupid things people are saying about the concept of feminism in games its rather pure evil or a godsend there is never compromise on most of these arguments people have at least on what I've seen.
Why the hell is gaming the all important factor in these conversations and why not other mediums I know gaming has a problem with the amount of good female characters and protagonists but a lot of the arguments made against games could be levied against any other medium. Also we are to a degree a minority how many people do you think care about writing in games especially fans of the most mainstream game currently Call of Duty let me tell you its a fucking small number, its called lowest common denominator it happens to all mediums. Do you think those who watch grown ups are looking for a great narrative no they are looking for a cheap laugh.
There is also the problem the industry has with homogenization maybe its nostalgia but i remember a lot more diverse array of games and more smaller but not that small games in a consoles lineup. Many companies are chasing call of duty and will try to do what they are doing to get as large sales there is a diversification problem in general.
Lastly stop saying that games for girls shouldn't be made they should just buy what they like and leave everything else that's like saying if books were mostly made up of twilights and you were told the same thing you would get pissed about that. And also stop saying just make games for girls its not just that simple just because you and your friends like mainstream games doesn't mean that a lot of girls do it is a smaller market don't make me bring out the limited numbers i have on Call of Duty and few casual games it is commonly known that males and females generally have different tastes in many things.
TL;DR It's not that simple, and gaming needs to get over this obsession over feminism but not ignore feminism
But my god what the hell is wrong with people why is there so much talk about this stuff there has been more feminist forums on the escapist then there have been about specific games. Then there is the blistering stupid things people are saying about the concept of feminism in games its rather pure evil or a godsend there is never compromise on most of these arguments people have at least on what I've seen.
Why the hell is gaming the all important factor in these conversations and why not other mediums I know gaming has a problem with the amount of good female characters and protagonists but a lot of the arguments made against games could be levied against any other medium. Also we are to a degree a minority how many people do you think care about writing in games especially fans of the most mainstream game currently Call of Duty let me tell you its a fucking small number, its called lowest common denominator it happens to all mediums. Do you think those who watch grown ups are looking for a great narrative no they are looking for a cheap laugh.
There is also the problem the industry has with homogenization maybe its nostalgia but i remember a lot more diverse array of games and more smaller but not that small games in a consoles lineup. Many companies are chasing call of duty and will try to do what they are doing to get as large sales there is a diversification problem in general.
Lastly stop saying that games for girls shouldn't be made they should just buy what they like and leave everything else that's like saying if books were mostly made up of twilights and you were told the same thing you would get pissed about that. And also stop saying just make games for girls its not just that simple just because you and your friends like mainstream games doesn't mean that a lot of girls do it is a smaller market don't make me bring out the limited numbers i have on Call of Duty and few casual games it is commonly known that males and females generally have different tastes in many things.
TL;DR It's not that simple, and gaming needs to get over this obsession over feminism but not ignore feminism
But then, isn't the industry? Won't the message taken from people disliking this game invariably be "gamers don't like female protagonists" rather than "gamers don't like mediocre games sitting at a 66% of Metacritic when an 80% can be considered a "bad" game by our metrics?"BloatedGuppy said:
N-Ruzinus said:
No.
Read it again. It is exactly about trying to trivialize any argument using the "there are more important problems" excuse, regardless of relevance. That is the basis. It's in the definition. Hell, they even gave you an example.
Man, I didn't think I'd have to explain this so many times.
kenu12345 said:
Hmmmm, 3 pages back. I missed this.jehk said:
Anyway, no, you are not concludng what I wnated to say. I actually think they did a brave and right thing. But I also think they are going to pay for it, which is kind of sad.
Female characters in FPS games are nothing new. Unreal Tournament and Quake 3 had them. There was actually real resistance from quake 3 comunity since models are mostly smaller hence seen as smaller hitboxes. But ID team has shown that all models are actually stuffed inside the same hitbox. Anyway, only differencefrom then is that demographic is much wider therefore we have such practices like teabaging . We never tought about such tings whan I played Q3, I was to busy blasting anything that moves (those games are much more quick paced. Teabagging would get you killed almost certanly).
You spelled "descriptive" wrong. He didn't "dismiss" anything.Smeatza said:
If they're realeased to a Western market, yes. If they comprise a significant portion of the industry in question, yes.
You also misused "extreme." You're using casual observation to demonstrate why you think the argument doesn't hold up to casual scrutiny.
Considering women aren't even considered in this mix, then in this case yeah. The two points kinda are.Father Time said:
That's a goalpost shift, though, so I probably shouldn't even humour it.
Smeatza said:
Okay, using the harness/subligar armor set as an example is clearly unfair, Norithics, since it's actually more revealing on men than women, last time I checked. (I haven't played a male character in FFXIV, but the armor seems to be identical to its equivalent in FFXI.)Norithics said:
That said, as much as I appreciate both Final Fantasy MMOs, a great deal of the armor sets are changed to be somewhat "sexier" for female characters. Usually by showing a bit of the characters' thighs, and occasionally with a bit of cleavage. I don't like this, but I convince myself that at least it's a step up from SWTOR's broken robes-turned-tank-tops.
Op, that can hardly be called "feminism" what you described.
A guy walked up to a male Avatar in a game. Odds are he didn't know a woman ws playing him. Gave the "guy" a hard time, and was prolly surprised it was a girl.
Now, if the guy singled out the girl knowing the player was a girl, and decided to ruin her day, then there might be grounds.
Honestly, I'm not getting the whole story here. I need the instigator's motives. I can give the instigator the benefit of the doubt, though.
"Don't hit me, I'm a girl!" as far as videogame violence goes isn't feminism, damnit! Neither is tracking him down and harassing him. that's just being an ass. At least if what I assume was a ganking was just that, and not a malicious attack because he knew the gender of the player.
To a degree, yes, feminism needs to be in gaming. It shouldn't -have- to be though. If the game industry would pull it's head out of it's ass, and start treating girls as gamers, and maybe pandering a wee bit more with a variety of characters that aren't all needlessly sexualized, and wearing outfits that leave little to the imagination.
I'm not saying that those "needlessly sexualized" characters can't exist, but they're pretty much the norm. Guys get sensible clothing a lot, and don't get put on covers with their butts on display for the purposes of titilation.
Sex sells, sure, but it can't be the mainstay of the industry. It -can- exist, but when it's the majority of what's being sold (and lets not kid ourselves, it has been, especially on the console front for at least a decade) it's going to wear thin!
Of course, so long as the game industry fights against the presense of female protagonists/playable characters, and their agency, people are going to be angry at the status quo, too.
Plug your ears, and pretend nothing's wrong all ya like, but that's not going to make anything go away.
Some damned empathy would be appreciated in the matter.
Honestly, so long as people need badges, and the gaming industry stays with the status quo, it's going to be talked about, love it or hate it.
captcha: Drive Sober
Seriously! Do that!
A guy walked up to a male Avatar in a game. Odds are he didn't know a woman ws playing him. Gave the "guy" a hard time, and was prolly surprised it was a girl.
Now, if the guy singled out the girl knowing the player was a girl, and decided to ruin her day, then there might be grounds.
Honestly, I'm not getting the whole story here. I need the instigator's motives. I can give the instigator the benefit of the doubt, though.
"Don't hit me, I'm a girl!" as far as videogame violence goes isn't feminism, damnit! Neither is tracking him down and harassing him. that's just being an ass. At least if what I assume was a ganking was just that, and not a malicious attack because he knew the gender of the player.
To a degree, yes, feminism needs to be in gaming. It shouldn't -have- to be though. If the game industry would pull it's head out of it's ass, and start treating girls as gamers, and maybe pandering a wee bit more with a variety of characters that aren't all needlessly sexualized, and wearing outfits that leave little to the imagination.
I'm not saying that those "needlessly sexualized" characters can't exist, but they're pretty much the norm. Guys get sensible clothing a lot, and don't get put on covers with their butts on display for the purposes of titilation.
Sex sells, sure, but it can't be the mainstay of the industry. It -can- exist, but when it's the majority of what's being sold (and lets not kid ourselves, it has been, especially on the console front for at least a decade) it's going to wear thin!
Of course, so long as the game industry fights against the presense of female protagonists/playable characters, and their agency, people are going to be angry at the status quo, too.
Plug your ears, and pretend nothing's wrong all ya like, but that's not going to make anything go away.
Some damned empathy would be appreciated in the matter.
Honestly, so long as people need badges, and the gaming industry stays with the status quo, it's going to be talked about, love it or hate it.
captcha: Drive Sober
Seriously! Do that!
I know that a lot of people have unreasonable issues with feminism, but i also know that at least part of the backlash against feminism is based on issues that the feminist community has and is unwilling or unable to address. I have actually read quite some stuff wrote by feminists on the internet and there are some real issues like feminists living in echo chambers where every slightly dissenting opinion will be dismissed and banned, dismissal of male problems or even of the idea that males could have problems, excessive and unjustified use of terms like sexism or misogyny, feminist theory in general (which often reduces complex problems to just gender issues) and use of lousily defined concepts like patriarchy in particular (the meaning of the term is clearly defined in a sociological, but not in a feminist context) and so on. And then there is stuff like the twitter tag killallmen, which really doesn't help. The inability to acknowledge problems with feminists is especially evident when they just ignore other feminists positions they don't like (like "Feminists just want more diversity" which is just untrue when people like Sarkessian are linking the damsel trope and real world violence, which in turn can only mean that such tropes shouldn't ever be used).Zachary Amaranth said:
Also, the idea that the last 30 years was "have been brutal for causes that are even remotely progressive" seems really of the mark when you look at the advances in gay rights over this time. Perhaps feminists should take a look at the gay rights movement and try to figure out what they did different.
Nope, the whole controversy started when kotaku personally attacked the maker of dragons crown for his art style and the maker responded with personal attacks. Then followed a lot of discussions about the art style everywhere (where both sides made good and bad arguments) and the hole polygon review thing was just a continuation of this. So, yes, feminists (i count kotaku as feminist) started the hole debacle.Zachary Amaranth said:
I don't know whether you know, but fiction is mostly read by women (according to this article women make up 80% of fiction readers and i would guess that even of that 20% many read stuff like military fiction or scifi http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=14175229 ) and somehow that isn't that big of a deal for anyone. This shows that highly gendered media doesn't seem to be a problem in general and begs the question if the attacks against gaming for being a gendered media aren't a bit hypocrite.Zachary Amaranth said:
Sexualization in games at 4%? You'll have to pardon me if I misunderstood, here but, of what? Games in general? Well, sure since women rarely appear, nevermind are playable.carnex said:
I'd rather look at the female population, and sexualization. When was the last time you saw an ugly woman? And how often do you see them? Game engines aside, like Fallout, and Elder Scrolls.
4% women playing games? Prolly coz of the game industrly abandoning them. I know I felt like that. <.<
But you're gunna have to elaborate here.
Yes.
I've even created a perfect game so everyone will be satisfied.
You play a half-black, half-asian, lesbian, jewish-born-but-identifies-as-muslim, overweight, transsexual, genderfluent, gender-queer, deaf-blind-mute, demi-sexual, otherkin transwoman in a wheelchair, and your goal is to smash the patriarchy.
Alternatively
Every character is a shapeless, grey, homogenous, featureless blob without a voice or dialogue, doing absolutely nothing that could be construed as gender-specific behavior.
There, now everyone should be happy.
I've even created a perfect game so everyone will be satisfied.
You play a half-black, half-asian, lesbian, jewish-born-but-identifies-as-muslim, overweight, transsexual, genderfluent, gender-queer, deaf-blind-mute, demi-sexual, otherkin transwoman in a wheelchair, and your goal is to smash the patriarchy.
Alternatively
Every character is a shapeless, grey, homogenous, featureless blob without a voice or dialogue, doing absolutely nothing that could be construed as gender-specific behavior.
There, now everyone should be happy.