Should muslim women remove their veil in stores?

[Spacelord]

In not rascist, i just think its stupid as hell.

Sorry, you are. If you say a religion is stupid as hell (or any part of it) you are an intolerant racist.

Religion =/= race.

Okay, okay. It's just that usually Islam = Muslims.

Muslim is not an ethnicity. Followers of Islam are called Muslims (or Mohammedans). It denotes religion, not race. You probably mean Arabs and/or North-Africans. Which in turn really denotes their country of origin. So, fuck it. I think you mean BROWN PEOPLE.

Also, just so I don't waste your time with a semantics lesson, here's my two cents to whomever it may concern: I think this thread is too busy with being careful and scared of being called what you just called Fronken, that it's kind of missing the mark. The real dilemma here is:

Freedom of religion vs. the obligation of being identifiable.

I'm not quite sure about the legal situation of the country in question, but I'm assuming that in the US (that's where the article originated from, right?) the Constitution is still the documented law that is held in highest esteem - outdated as it may be. So in that case, it seems that the answer to the question posed in the thread's topic is: no.

However, though muslimas (that's girl muslims) may claim their right to exercise their religious practices, shop owners may are also allowed to demand their customers to be identifiable. This is not directly in conflict with any current law as far as I know - though, as is often the case with legal matters, it's often a matter of interpretation.

TL;DR: Shopkeepers have the right to ban veils. It's up to them if they want to lose customers because of this. When it comes right down to it, it's math: IF [cost of stolen crap] > [cost of losing customers], then BAN. If the other way around, 's all good.

Now my brain hurts and I'm going to lie down a bit.

 

[ScAR_TiSsUE]

If they work there then they should. And where safey and/or security is an issue, yes also. I know their garb is part of their religion, but worshippers of other religions are being prevented from wearing articles of their faith at work. There are examples of Christians being banned from wearing crucixes because they might offend.

SOME Muslims are very aware that they can use human rights issues to their advantage alone, even when those rights should exist for every citizen. I often get the sense that non-muslims are being bullied or guilt-tripped into accomodating their beliefs without them doing anything in return.

Oh, and heres a thought. What if the person in the islamic clothing wasn't actually a muslim or even a woman, but wanted to use the clothing to their advantage? To hide their identity.

Please note: I'm neither pro-christian or anti-islam. All religions/cultures should take an equal step towards accomadating each others diversity.

 

[Moloch-De]

Its a christian thing to burn witches and stone herretics. They should be allowed to continue on this tradition...
Tollerance towards other people, their religion and coulture is a thing i aprove of;
To grant exeptions to any group of people on basis on anything fictional is just a fail of democracy. If a motorcyclehelmet has to go the veil does too. It might be their religion BUT it is our (them included) coulture and we all have to compromise in order to live together.
An exeption is only accepable when there is a handycap that is aproved of by a doctor.
Example: with a terrible faceburn you should be allowed to bandage the wounds. In that case there would be a recepy from the Doc that can prove the need for such messure and imposters could be fined.
Please don't argue that a religion is a handicap, that way you would insult the people your trying to defend

 

[cuddly_tomato]

Atheism has now reached the stage where it has almost become an organised religion in itself, and seeks to usurp other religions and replace them with it's own because it "is the only truth"....

Oh how ironic.

No, not really. Bigots with faith just like to put people into little boxes like that.

Of course there is...

"This is the revolution and the evolution beyond the plague,
open your eyes and march into the future,
stand tall on this new ground,
a place purged of ancient ritual and dogma,
this is the Atheist Empire."

http://www.atheistempire.com/

Incidentally, I never said all atheists. In fact that post specifically cited the fundamentalist atheist as being different from the reasonable atheist. Anyone who is intolerant of anothers beliefs is a bigot, not someone who simply doesn't want their own beliefs to be ridiculed or prejudiced by others.

Also - quoting one small part of a post to make it sound different than what it originally said is bad form.

Well, just because they do it doesn't justify you to do it. Its like a game of tennis where the players keep hitting the ball harder and harder. Something bad will likely happen sooner or later.

Me? Who said anything about me? Please point out where I shoved any of my beliefs down anyones throats...

Indeed please point out a single post of mine where I even told anyone what my beliefs are.

 

[Spacelord]

There are examples of Christians being banned from wearing crucixes because they might offend.

You've got to be making this up.

 

[ScAR_TiSsUE]

That was a dangerously reasonable comment you made. Sensible and civilised. Are you sure you're human?

 

[LittleBritishMan]

Two things are worth considering:

1) Anglophone hijab wearers tend predominantly to be recently-migrated middle-class Muslim women. (Maintaining the 'traditional' lifestyle is actually fairly expensive and time-consuming, especially in the West, which pretty strongly discourages anything more elaborate than simple headscarves.) In general, immigrants' proclivity to crime closely follows economic standing - the more stable you are coming into a country, the less likely you are to wind up in a situation where high-visibility crime (e.g. theft/robbery as opposed to drugs and etc) is necessary or possible. In summary, the hijab is not particularly likely to be any kind of pressing security risk vis a vis any other item of clothing - there will occasionally be crimes committed by employing its concealment, but the same can be said about almost everything people see fit to wear.

2) Further, the veil itself - when you factor out the more specific and sectarian idea of hijab - is much less ideological and much more personal than most Westerners are aware of. While there are in fact specific theological reasons and justifications given for the wearing of elaborate coverture by women, the wearing of veils by Middle Eastern women is as consistent and unwavering as the wearing of trousers by Germanic men. (Both are well-attested in classical sources.) Because there is never a broad, bold line between culture and religion in practice, the upshot in this case is that coverture of the scalp and brow is not so much taken seriously as taken for granted by Middle Eastern women, especially those from more provincial or religious backgrounds. The removal of the veil is an intimate matter; it plays a role in both exhibitionism and assault, and whatever the ultimate intentions, mandating that middle eastern women remove their headwear before entering a store is roughly as tasteful and would be received more or less identically to asking anyone wearing a skirt to invert and tape it up before entering a store.

lolwut

 

[SimpleReally]

Lets get some facts straight
In Islam women must cover the whole body except the face and palms (just like nuns), notice i said face, thats the whole head except the hair and ears, easy enough to recognize.

what kind of robber would show you his face? i think a woman with sunglasses and a hat is harder to recognize than one with hijab.

there are some countries where women cover all the head except for the eyes but that is more of a traditional tribal rule than religion.

 

[Avida]

Two things are worth considering:

1) Anglophone hijab wearers tend predominantly to be recently-migrated middle-class Muslim women. (Maintaining the 'traditional' lifestyle is actually fairly expensive and time-consuming, especially in the West, which pretty strongly discourages anything more elaborate than simple headscarves.) In general, immigrants' proclivity to crime closely follows economic standing - the more stable you are coming into a country, the less likely you are to wind up in a situation where high-visibility crime (e.g. theft/robbery as opposed to drugs and etc) is necessary or possible. In summary, the hijab is not particularly likely to be any kind of pressing security risk vis a vis any other item of clothing - there will occasionally be crimes committed by employing its concealment, but the same can be said about almost everything people see fit to wear.

2) Further, the veil itself - when you factor out the more specific and sectarian idea of hijab - is much less ideological and much more personal than most Westerners are aware of. While there are in fact specific theological reasons and justifications given for the wearing of elaborate coverture by women, the wearing of veils by Middle Eastern women is as consistent and unwavering as the wearing of trousers by Germanic men. (Both are well-attested in classical sources.) Because there is never a broad, bold line between culture and religion in practice, the upshot in this case is that coverture of the scalp and brow is not so much taken seriously as taken for granted by Middle Eastern women, especially those from more provincial or religious backgrounds. The removal of the veil is an intimate matter; it plays a role in both exhibitionism and assault, and whatever the ultimate intentions, mandating that middle eastern women remove their headwear before entering a store is roughly as tasteful and would be received more or less identically to asking anyone wearing a skirt to invert and tape it up before entering a store.

Hell of a first post, i agree fully. Besides would you really want to make a getaway in full religious gear?

 

[ScAR_TiSsUE]

No. An air hostess in the UK was banned from wearing a cross. She was told that 'it would be best' if she didn't wear it in case it would cause offense to non-believers. They suggested that wearing one was like promoting her faith (like advertising?). The official statement was that wearing jewellery violated their dress-code. Even though there was nothing about articles of faith in their code. She took them to court. Don't know the result.

At that time, a muslim school girl contested her right to wear the veil on the grounds that it was part of her religion and shouldn'nt be discriminated against. Victory. A catholic girl wants to wear her crucifix based on the same arguments. Guess what happened?

Believe it or not. I certainly couldn't when I heard it.

 

[Spacelord]

That was a dangerously reasonable comment you made. Sensible and civilised. Are you sure you're human?

I'm not sure...

 

[Easykill]

Nah, freedom comes before safety. You can't just spit on their beliefs like that.

 

[ScAR_TiSsUE]

Hope I didn't post something that made me seem like a tear-off-their-veils kind of guy. But it frustrates me when it SEEMs like both parties are not trying equally to resolve this issue, but are instead, adopting a do-it-my way attitude.

Surely there is a civilised way to resolve this dilemma, discreetly and respectfully? Any ideas?

 

[Kukakkau]

no - because its against their religon.
but it is stupid that it makes the unidentifable.
to quote a scottish comedian frankie boyle - "there was 2 of them taking holiday pictures in their veils. what is the point? "oh sorry take it again i blinked" "

 

[Jandau]

The difference is, your hoodie is your fashion choice. Is there any overriding reason for you to NEED to wear a hood over your head?

Well, to them the IS an important overriding reason why they have to wear the veil. I don't see WHY in the world would you force people into such a position over a VEIL...

But I guess I have too much common sense...

They need to wear a veil as much as a Christian needs to wear a cross. It's a choice. And people have escaped countries, robbed stores etc using the veil as a mask. It's for security that they should remove the veil. In Turkey, most muslims there don't wear one which shows it's more of a cultural influence and choice rather than a die-hard part of the Quran. And safety should always come before choice.

I thoroughy disagree with you on the whole "need" thing. Also, I don't see the veil as anymore of a security risk than pants. As for the whole Turkey part of your post: yeah, all muslims have identical customs, just like all christians do, right? [/sarcasm]

In any case, I've stated my opinion. It's not a matter of Choice VS Security. It's a matter of wether or not a veil presents any/sufficient threat to security to warrant the denial of choice? I say no.

Also, to the example of the christian flight attendant who wore a small cross, I belive she was within her rights. Religious tolerance isn't achieved by burying every trace of religion.

 

[jamesworkshop]

Women have the right to wear the veil however shops also have the right not to serve a woman wearing one

 

[guardian001]

the Hijab is not technically a religious rule. Muslim women wear the Hijab to preserve modesty. The reasons behind the hijab are backed up by the Qur'an, however no religious rule requires them to wear it.

for my actual opinion, I would say to let them keep the head covering, but to remove the veils.

Wait what?, im not allowed to disagree with religion without being a rascist?

Oh, and please tell me what good discriminating against women does, Please, i beg of you, you who are so high and mighty, please tell me what good a law that prohibits women from being allowed to show their bodies does...

As I said above, This is by no means a law, outside of certain countries. The Hijab and Veil are, in general, choice(as I said there are countries that require it). So thank you for proving yourself to be ignorant. please try and know what you're talking about before trying to talk about it.