Slaughter in the Arctic circle??

[ShaqLevick]

Listen when all is said and done, I could care less if the seal hunt went on, but I would rather leave that to the tribes who partake in the hunt. I guess what gets me so riled up is how it almost seems personal to me, for the way the media has handled the story over the past decade almost seems like slander to my country. Not that these people didn't have the right to express themselves. But how dumb do you have to be to solely defend cute little seal pups and not scream bloody murder at the atrocities other nations carry out on other animals who aren't so well off. Whaling really pisses me off, and if the seal population in the Arctic dwindled to staggering numbers I would certainly be on the other side of this argument. At this point they are not endangered, and I would look like the biggest hypocrite to oppose hunting of any kind and sit down for a big juicy hamburger. I'm still not going to be the guy who eats the last pair of cattle on earth... However, if it was the last Cow without a viable mate, well I wouldn't want to miss out on my last chance for deliciousness.

 

[KnightRider0717]

... Only humans have the luxury of infinite growth (yet I believe we'll all see where that takes us...). All I'm getting at is that these seals that are clubbed very well may have died of starvation, and what a sin that would be. ...

nope, theres a few things needed for growth of a population such as a stable food source as so is space. now... for human population to infinitely increase there would have to be an even larger food source for the population to be sustained like you've pointed out as the seals food source isn't great and they could starve to death. so to have this food supply and room for the expanding population is impossible as matter cannot occupy the same space as other matter

you seem to go against your point at times, try to more clearly think out your argument first

 

[Kwaren]

I have only this to say:

Seriously though , i think as long as its only done to survive by natives then it can be accepted.
As long as its not done for commercial gain, in which case it should be much more humane.

Aww ninja'd I was gonna post that image...

 

[ShaqLevick]

... Only humans have the luxury of infinite growth (yet I believe we'll all see where that takes us...). All I'm getting at is that these seals that are clubbed very well may have died of starvation, and what a sin that would be. ...

nope, theres a few things needed for growth of a population such as a stable food source as so is space. now... for human population to infinitely increase there would have to be an even larger food source for the population to be sustained like you've pointed out as the seals food source isn't great and they could starve to death. so to have this food supply and room for the expanding population is impossible as matter cannot occupy the same space as other matter

Well I thought I covered that with the little quip (yet I believe we'll all see where that takes us...), and the answer was a terrifying tomorrow. All I can say about that is best of luck to you and your kin on whatever part of the planet you live on.

 

[PedroSteckecilo]

The problem with Seal Clubbing isn't so much that we Canadians WANT it to happen, it just happens to be a Native Rights Issue as well, like most hunting of questionable species in Canada.

 

[Calgetorix]

ummm no, we havent evolved to digest cellulose so we wouldnt get much from the plants and you need protein in your system for cellular functions (DNA replication and producing our own proteins) and im sure we can all agree theres not a significant source of protein in a carrot

im not saying being vegetarians would decrease brain mass and find the idea a little stupid but my point is that you cant survive off plants since our bodies cant break them down

You can easily get enough protein from a vegetarian diet. Also, your last statement is stupid because today, there are already vegetarians who are obviously not dead. You should do a quick read about vegetarianism.

OT: Would you also kill dogs because of the same reasons/problems with baby seals? I'm not saying either thing is wrong and I'm actually quite happy to hear some of the arguments for seal clubbing. I'm just curious.

It's really difficult to disagree with you, Shaq, because you are doing your best to be rational about much of it and I lack knowledge about this subject. But it is a democracy and it's the people making the laws which reflect the culture. Considering the question I asked to begin with, it is a cultural thing we don't eat dogs and don't like seal clubbing. But it's being hypocrites, I agree.

I do think seal cub clubbing club sounds awesome, though.

 

[OtherSideofSky]

After all, nobody complains about elk hunting or peasant shooting. Clubbing does not sound very efficent- so why do they have to do it?

Where is it still legal to shoot peasants? I think I need to change my vacation plans.

 

[ShaqLevick]

ummm no, we havent evolved to digest cellulose so we wouldnt get much from the plants and you need protein in your system for cellular functions (DNA replication and producing our own proteins) and im sure we can all agree theres not a significant source of protein in a carrot

im not saying being vegetarians would decrease brain mass and find the idea a little stupid but my point is that you cant survive off plants since our bodies cant break them down

You can easily get enough protein from a vegetarian diet. Also, your last statement is stupid because today, there are already vegetarians who are obviously not dead. You should do a quick read about vegetarianism.

Your comments are valid but as far as being a vegan goes, I just ask that you consider the scope of 12 Million years. It may seem some time, but is a mere drop in the evolutionary bucket.

 

[Sunstrike]

Unless you don't believe in evolution I'm pretty sure 12 Million years eating simple and complex grains would likely lower intelligence. But that's only based on the previous 12 Million years of evolution, and the proteins created in flesh not found in accessible plant life. Then again who knows the real science of it all.

My first year anthropology course talked about how one of the larger breaks in human evolution came when we started eating meat, which resulted in a signifigantly increased brain mass. I'm not necessarily sure whether or not that would be reversed by going back to vegetarianism, but it's a possibility. Scientifically speaking though, humans have canine teeth/incisors for a reason, the cutting of flesh. Our teeth shows that we are well adapted omnivors, capable and ready to essentially eat whatever food we can get our hands on. Both meat and plants have different nutrients useful for different things.

On the OP, our society has somewhat strict rules of behavior and what contitutes right and wrong. It has gradually developed that knowing something has to die to sustain your life is no longer polite dinner conversation. At a basic level people don't like knowing some form of life steals the energy from another form of life (even plants steal light and water from other plants) every time it feeds.

By basic instinct of survival an organism must always look out for itself in any way it can, helping others is only done if it helps proliferate your species. Since "ugly" animals and plants are so very different in form and nature from humans, we develop very little emotional response to changes in there welfare. "so what if a cockroach dies, they're bug ugly and COULD infest somebodies house".

However, "cute" animalsn often on some basic level remind us (or resemble) ourselves when we were babies. Thus creating strong emotional ties to such an animal even though they are not related to our own survival. Thus is is often thought of as wrong to kill such an animal, simply because we have developed an emotional response to protect such animals like we would our own human young.

While there really is no rational difference between killing a baby seal eating all the fish, and a cockroach eating all your chips, often irrational emotions get in the way, and cause these outcries.

Sorry if I got off on a tangent, sometimes feel like I should be in philosophy instead of engineering, but meh.

 

[ShaqLevick]

Unless you don't believe in evolution I'm pretty sure 12 Million years eating simple and complex grains would likely lower intelligence. But that's only based on the previous 12 Million years of evolution, and the proteins created in flesh not found in accessible plant life. Then again who knows the real science of it all.

My first year anthropology course talked about how one of the larger breaks in human evolution came when we started eating meat, which resulted in a signifigantly increased brain mass. I'm not necessarily sure whether or not that would be reversed by going back to vegetarianism, but it's a possibility. Scientifically speaking though, humans have canine teeth/incisors for a reason, the cutting of flesh. Our teeth shows that we are well adapted omnivors, capable and ready to essentially eat whatever food we can get our hands on. Both meat and plants have different nutrients useful for different things.

On the OP, our society has somewhat strict rules of behavior and what contitutes right and wrong. It has gradually developed that knowing something has to die to sustain your life is no longer polite dinner conversation. At a basic level people don't like knowing some form of life steals the energy from another form of life (even plants steal light and water from other plants) every time it feeds.

By basic instinct of survival an organism must always look out for itself in any way it can, helping others is only done if it helps proliferate your species. Since "ugly" animals and plants are so very different in form and nature from humans, we develop very little emotional response to changes in there welfare. "so what if a cockroach dies, they're bug ugly and COULD infest somebodies house".

However, "cute" animals remind often on some basic level remind us (or resemble) ourselves when we were babies. Thus creating strong emotional ties to such an animal even though they are not related to our own survival. Thus is is often thought of as wrong to kill such an animal, simply because we have developed an emotional response to protect such animals like we would our own human young.

While there really is no rational difference between killing a baby seal eating all the fish, and a cockroach eating all your chips, often irrational emotions get in the way, and cause these outcries.

Strong points, but in response to the cuteness of certain species it's simply evolutionary design, and that is a well designed trick. I recommend nobody falls for these, signs may include fluffiness, fuzziness, doe eyes, tiny feet, and the often auspicious button nose!

 

[Serioli]

ummm no, we havent evolved to digest cellulose so we wouldnt get much from the plants and you need protein in your system for cellular functions (DNA replication and producing our own proteins) and im sure we can all agree theres not a significant source of protein in a carrot

im not saying being vegetarians would decrease brain mass and find the idea a little stupid but my point is that you cant survive off plants since our bodies cant break them down

You can easily get enough protein from a vegetarian diet. Also, your last statement is stupid because today, there are already vegetarians who are obviously not dead. You should do a quick read about vegetarianism.

Your comments are valid but as far as being a vegan goes, I just ask that you consider the scope of 12 Million years. It may seem some time, but is a mere drop in the evolutionary bucket.

So are you saying that because it worked for us in the past,we should continue doing it? W00t, slavery, genocide,conquest, child labour, women=property and more are all a go then? Yes,I know that all these things are going on right now but it does not make them right,either from an ethical or an evolutionary perspective.

I will happily concede that veganism may not have worked 10,000 or even 100 years ago (B12). I am not saying that it would be a good idea after a massive collapse of civilisation (Fallout anyone?) BUT, these are not the case, right here and right now it works, right here and right now is killing seals for their meats and furs really NECESSARY?

 

[KnightRider0717]

... Only humans have the luxury of infinite growth (yet I believe we'll all see where that takes us...). All I'm getting at is that these seals that are clubbed very well may have died of starvation, and what a sin that would be. ...

nope, theres a few things needed for growth of a population such as a stable food source as so is space. now... for human population to infinitely increase there would have to be an even larger food source for the population to be sustained like you've pointed out as the seals food source isn't great and they could starve to death. so to have this food supply and room for the expanding population is impossible as matter cannot occupy the same space as other matter

Well I thought I covered that with the little quip (yet I believe we'll all see where that takes us...), and the answer was a terrifying tomorrow. All I can say about that is best of luck to you and your kin on whatever part of the planet you live on.

no, you said that there would be problems, if you meant that we can always reproduce your statements still wrong since all life does that, being able to reproduce is a characteristic of life.

you said a moment ago that you take it personally against your country, so i assume you're canadian, but you also believe seal hunting should be done by natives. unless you're from newfoundland like i am you probably wouldn't understand the need for employment and how insulting this topic can be towards this place. yes, it's insulting towards canadians but i wouldn't say it's as insulting as having the people of your province being called savages for making a living.

now, as far as i see it, there is no problem with the seal hunt. yes animals die, so what? there always will be death as long as there's life and it's not as though the population isn't able to reproduce and grow since i'm sure we all know seals are considered living. it's also not like there aren't regulations considering the number of seals caught. you've also pointed out that they are not endangered, therefore there's no problem. if they did become endangered the hunt wouldn't happen, it's actually very simple and if a persons reasoning behind being against the hunt is simply because the babies are cute, they don't deserve to have a say in the matter.

 

[oppp7]

I agree about the seal part, but I don't think becoming vegetarians would lower our brain mass. We can get the same amount of nutrients from plants.

ummm no, we havent evolved to digest cellulose so we wouldnt get much from the plants and you need protein in your system for cellular functions (DNA replication and producing our own proteins) and im sure we can all agree theres not a significant source of protein in a carrot

im not saying being vegetarians would decrease brain mass and find the idea a little stupid but my point is that you cant survive off plants since our bodies cant break them down

My sister is a vegetarian and she's doing fine. I'm pretty sure it is possible to be a vegetarian. Vegans too, but not too sure on how healthy they are.

 

[Calgetorix]

Your comments are valid but as far as being a vegan goes, I just ask that you consider the scope of 12 Million years. It may seem some time, but is a mere drop in the evolutionary bucket.

Just to begin with, I don't agree with vegans but I can somewhat understand vegetarians.

We can eat both meat and "plants" because we are omnivors. As I understand it, the reason we developed bigger brains when we started eating meat is because it has a lot more energy than plants and was easier to collect back then. The excess energy allowed our brains to develop (the brains uses about 25% of our total energy despite only contributing 2% to our bodyweight).

Now, the access to food has increased greatly which has eliminated the collection/availability criteria. It doesn't matter what you eat, just as long your needs are satisfied. I still eat meat, though, because I like a balanced diet.

But enough of this, I guess. I didn't mean to hijack your thread and turn it into a food discussion. I just think KnightRider was way wrong before
; )

 

[Calgetorix]

no, you said that there would be problems, if you meant that we can always reproduce your statements still wrong since all life does that, being able to reproduce is a characteristic of life.

you said a moment ago that you take it personally against your country, so i assume you're canadian, but you also believe seal hunting should be done by natives. unless you're from newfoundland like i am you probably wouldn't understand the need for employment and how insulting this topic can be towards this place. yes, it's insulting towards canadians but i wouldn't say it's as insulting as having the people of your province being called savages for making a living.

now, as far as i see it, there is no problem with the seal hunt. yes animals die, so what? there always will be death as long as there's life and it's not as though the population isn't able to reproduce and grow since i'm sure we all know seals are considered living. it's also not like there aren't regulations considering the number of seals caught. you've also pointed out that they are not endangered, therefore there's no problem. if they did become endangered the hunt wouldn't happen, it's actually very simple and if a persons reasoning behind being against the hunt is simply because the babies are cute, they don't deserve to have a say in the matter.

See the bolded part.

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth but it sounds as if you don't mind hunting animals to endagerment. Do you think we, as humans, should be able to exploit nature to the greatest extent possible?

 

[ShaqLevick]

ummm no, we havent evolved to digest cellulose so we wouldnt get much from the plants and you need protein in your system for cellular functions (DNA replication and producing our own proteins) and im sure we can all agree theres not a significant source of protein in a carrot

im not saying being vegetarians would decrease brain mass and find the idea a little stupid but my point is that you cant survive off plants since our bodies cant break them down

You can easily get enough protein from a vegetarian diet. Also, your last statement is stupid because today, there are already vegetarians who are obviously not dead. You should do a quick read about vegetarianism.

Your comments are valid but as far as being a vegan goes, I just ask that you consider the scope of 12 Million years. It may seem some time, but is a mere drop in the evolutionary bucket.

So are you saying that because it worked for us in the past,we should continue doing it? W00t, slavery, genocide,conquest, child labour, women=property and more are all a go then? Yes,I know that all these things are going on right now but it does not make them right,either from an ethical or an evolutionary perspective?

I will happily concede that veganism may not have worked 10,000 or even 100 years ago (B12). I am not saying that it would be a good idea after a massive collapse of civilisation (Fallout anyone?) BUT, these are not the case, right here and right now it works, right here and right now is killing seals for their meats and furs really NECESSARY?

10 000 years I mean come on, seriously I'm not saying we're the pinnacle of perfection but sweet jesus we've come far, hell we have gone farther than any other species could have glimpsed. Try to count to 12 Million and tell me when you've stopped and decided to go about living your own short life, do know that things will change though.
As far as the necessity of it all goes please consider what is unnecessary about it all? In the grand scheme of things I personally believe Humans are much better than this whole thing, this planet, or solar system. I'm all for preservation, just be rational about it. Of the top 100 things people are doing to destroy the environment and the planet, how can it even be possible seal clubbing would be on there. These native seal hunters aren't up there mowing through the whole herd, but I know if there was a little seal farm up there and pretty little moccasins got shipped all around the world in fancy ozone damaging plastic wrap I wouldn't here word one from USA Today??

 

[KnightRider0717]

ummm no, we havent evolved to digest cellulose so we wouldnt get much from the plants and you need protein in your system for cellular functions (DNA replication and producing our own proteins) and im sure we can all agree theres not a significant source of protein in a carrot

im not saying being vegetarians would decrease brain mass and find the idea a little stupid but my point is that you cant survive off plants since our bodies cant break them down

You can easily get enough protein from a vegetarian diet. Also, your last statement is stupid because today, there are already vegetarians who are obviously not dead. You should do a quick read about vegetarianism.

OT: Would you also kill dogs because of the same reasons/problems with baby seals? I'm not saying either thing is wrong and I'm actually quite happy to hear some of the arguments for seal clubbing. I'm just curious.

It's really difficult to disagree with you, Shaq, because you are doing your best to be rational about much of it and I lack knowledge about this subject. But it is a democracy and it's the people making the laws which reflect the culture. Considering the question I asked to begin with, it is a cultural thing we don't eat dogs and don't like seal clubbing. But it's being hypocrites, I agree.

I do think seal cub clubbing club sounds awesome, though.

yes i am wrong that you can survive off being a vegetarian, but a plant diet is an incomplete diet as you'd have to consume different plants to get essential nutrients into your system. this isn't efficient if you ask me. there's much better sources.

heres my reasoning behind my initial statement. animals don't produce an enzyme that's needed for breaking down of cell walls. anyone who has taken a biology course before knows that plant cells have cell walls. since animals do not produce the enzyme needed we have a mutualistic relationship with bacteria which do produce the enzymes and then we get what we need from the food. take a look at a omnivore or carnivore caecum and compare it to one found in a herbivore. you'll notice a very large difference between them as it's where the bacteria are found in the body

since you asked, no i wouldn't mind if dogs were used in a similar fashion as seals, as long as someone doesn't chase down someones pet dog trying to kill it there's no problem

 

[Nickolai77]

After all, nobody complains about elk hunting or peasant shooting. Clubbing does not sound very efficent- so why do they have to do it?

Where is it still legal to shoot peasants? I think I need to change my vacation plans.

In England, my friends farther shoots peasants....Oh wait.... i sense spelling fail on my part XD *facepalm*

 

[AntiAntagonist]

Alright, this is my first thread so bare with me. I was just messing around crackbook and came across something that sent me into a rage, and now I feel the urge to start a little rant. What I'm talking about is Seal clubbing in the Canadian Arctic, and this one goes out to all the hippie freaks out there (you know who you are). I mean it's one thing when unbalanced drug addicts like Sir Paul McCartney try to stir the pot, but when reputable news stations such as USA Today band with organizations like PETA to petition, well then the crazies start coming out. Comments like please stop killing innocent animals and other poorly structured comments, without point or honest opinion. Lets in short examine why one would club a baby Seal *Gasp*. Well, the most obvious point would be the destruction of their habitat (Pollution, Shipping routes, etc.), not to say the Seals per se, but it's food supplies and most importantly it's resident predators, mainly the Polar bear and Orca (Killer Whale). Lets not forget that at humans we fall at the very pinnacle of this food chain, but without a healthy Bear population the ecosystem is unable to rectify itself and clean up the sick and dying lot. Needless to say there isn't a living thing out there that wants to die disease ridden frozen to a sheet of ice. So the brave, noble Canadian people come along to rectify the evils of man, and with a swift club to the base of the head all higher brain functioning is severed. One thing people seemed most offended by was the blood splatter, but look at it from the point that it's simply a dinner bell for all the other starving inhabitants of the North, starving because you (yes you little lady with the teary eyes) decided to purchase products produced out side of your locale. To get slightly off topic let me mention that if we weren't on some level carnivorous we would likely in the future become solely dependent on grazing, which would offer little to no nutrition and of course would lead to a diminished brain mass. Of all my hopes and dreams for humanity, I don't feel we can grace those lofty ambitions by simply wallowing in the garbage we created.
Regardless, I may have gone off a little bit there, yet I still feel that the Canadian Seal hunt is probably one of the most humane hunts man can set out on. If a fish could express sadness to my level of understanding it would be far from impressed that I ripped him out of the river with a large barbed hook in his face...
However, all of this doesn't really open a discussion without me asking what all of you folks feel about the subject? How it effects you in your life, and if you're opposed how do you make day to day efforts to rectify the situation?

Your point seems to be muddled by lack of paragraph structure.

The way I read this is that 'we are doing the seals a favor by clubbing them' and 'it is in our nature anyway as we are carnivorous'. Due to use of the first point I'd hazard this is a sarcastic tongue-in-cheek opinion post.

 

[Sneaky-Pie]

This is my kind of thread.

If God didn't want us to eat animals, then why did he make them out of food?

Meat is just simply too good to go without.