So... fat chicks.

[Eyclonus]

Um Katherine *COUGH*Zoophile*COUGH* the Great? Boudica?

 

[Alex_P]

Wow, why does she even care? If I were in her place I would think it beneath my notice, and not worthy of my time.

This meta-post [http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2008/02/feminism-101-feminists-look-for-stuff.html] can be thought of as a defense for that one. It directly speaks to why she thinks folks should address the small stuff.

And, for the most part, I agree. There's trash (racist, sexist, &c. works and ideas) everywhere and we should call it like we see it.

In this particular case, though, I don't see it the way she sees it at all. I see a cute-kinky-creepy game that combines princesses with obesity in the same way that, oh, I dunno, Disney's Fantasia does. And the tropes are definitely screwed-up but... "human garbage"? Where is that coming from?

-- Alex

 

[Torment40]

This meta-post [http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2008/02/feminism-101-feminists-look-for-stuff.html] can be thought of as a defense for that one. It directly speaks to why she thinks folks should address the small stuff.

Whilst I do agree with feminists that there is still a lot of sex-based bias, I disagree with her view that it isn't going too far. To demonstrate my point, as recently as last week I saw on another forum that feminist's are pushing to change 'History' to 'Herstory' because History is apparently a sexist stab...ridiculous, no? I know that's just one example but if need be I can find many more, such as the argument that we shouldn't always assume, say, a video game player is a he, which is also ridiculous because most video game players 9 times out of 10 ARE male, and while that one is slightly more plausible, it's stupid to say it's a direct attack. It's foolish and arrogant to say males are not biased bigots because we are, that's our nature lol. But conversely, the feminist movement in itself is becoming incredibly sexist, not to mention outright ludicrous and filled with hypocrisy, it won't be long before the feminist movement is as credible as the Political Correctness machine

 

[Zeddicus Zhul Zorander]

Oh, and has anyone else noticed how feminists tend to be masculine? If they're so caught up in how great women are, shouldn't they be, oh I don't know, FEMININE?!?

 

[Alex_P]

Well, guess what, I've had more than my share of twinkies and I sure as hell am not beautiful (or handsome, rather). And what's so great about diabetes? heart disease? high-blood pressure? Yeah, death by corpulence is sooo beautiful. GET HEALTHY PEOPLE!

I'm creeped out by any movement to treat obesity as a value-neutral thing ("fat acceptance"). Doing away with all normative ideas about health can't be good for society.

That said, it's not unreasonable to say that fat people do, in fact, suffer from discrimination and emotional abuse. It'd be nice to diminish that hate just a bit without actually, like, pretending obesity is a fine and healthy life choice.

I think America's fucked-up body-image culture contributes to its problem with obesity. Setting up a standard that most people can't meaningfully achieve (and one that's often downright unhealthy, too) kinda does encourage them not to even try, doesn't it?
 

If this wasn't modern America, you could say Fat Princess is hitting a certain kind of class trope: the morbidly obese rich parasite exploiting the laboring class. We're so used to seeing the obese everywhere and people of almost every social stratum being able to get their fill of cheap, lardy food that we don't really associate the two any more.

Hell, isn't it weird that in modern America (and the "West" in general, perhaps), obesity is associated with poverty? We've reached such excess that being able to resist it (usually by canceling it out with other forms of excess -- personal trainers and fancy diets and plastic surgery) is a sign of wealth.

-- Alex

 

[00exmachina]

Well the discussion here (http://www.feministgamers.com/?p=466) on the same topic is a little more coherent.
Their main complaint seems to be the objectification issue, brought up as the point of if you replace the princess with a treasure chest to stuff items in it changes the game not at all. I can even agree with the argument.

The issues that people in the thread at least seem to be brining up against feminism are the same that are leveled against any group. The loudest people of the group come across as the speakers for the group even though they are to use a technical term 'nuttier then squirrel excrement'

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Oh, and has anyone else noticed how feminists tend to be masculine? If they're so caught up in how great women are, shouldn't they be, oh I don't know, FEMININE?!?

And once more, every point we gain against the feminists is shot down by our own side.

 

[PedroSteckecilo]

Well my stance on the issue is resolved. I asked my chubby, feminist girlfriend what she thought of the game concept and her response was...

"That is WEIRD! And oddly perverted..."

She wasn't remotely offended, just creeped out at the Japanese.

 

[Jumplion]

Back in the day (like WAAAYY back, i'm talkin' 1700 yo!) only the rich could afford to be fat and the poor had to eat what they could.

Now it's exactly the opposite and only the rich can afford to be skinny.

It's amazing how history can change in a matter or decades.

Though i think that if they change the princess into a farm animal (like a cow or something) the Fem Gamers would still be pissed because "OH, so now females are a bunch of fat COWS!?!?!? YOU BITCHES! MAKE IT A TREASURE CHEST!" but if they do that then "OH, so now women are mere objects of gold to be obtained? YOU BITCHES1! MAKE IT SOMETHING ELSE THAT WON'T BE ANTI-FEMINIST!!"

But the irony is still there, the person who came up and drew the art style with characters and stuff IS a woman.

It's a Catch-22 really.

 

[Alex_P]

Whilst I do agree with feminists that there is still a lot of sex-based bias, I disagree with her view that it isn't going too far. To demonstrate my point, as recently as last week I saw on another forum that feminist's are pushing to change 'History' to 'Herstory' because History is apparently a sexist stab...ridiculous, no? I know that's just one example but if need be I can find many more, such as the argument that we shouldn't always assume, say, a video game player is a he, which is also ridiculous because most video game players 9 times out of 10 ARE male, and while that one is slightly more plausible, it's stupid to say it's a direct attack. It's foolish and arrogant to say males are not biased bigots because we are, that's our nature lol. But conversely, the feminist movement in itself is becoming incredibly sexist, not to mention outright ludicrous and filled with hypocrisy, it won't be long before the feminist movement is as credible as the Political Correctness machine

But feminism isn't one unified movement. Anyone who wants to be a "feminist" can just say so and, poof, they will be thought of as a "feminist" -- especially on the Internet. That's why you get utterly sexist bullshit from self-described "feminists" sometimes.

Another problem is that many modern feminist thinkers speak in the ovewrought language of philosophy and critical theory, rendering their thoughts confusing to anyone who hasn't been taught how to slog through this arcane stuff at a university.

Mostly, though, it's simply that people insist on taking any random statement a feminist makes and ascribing it to feminists. This is stupid.

Also: "political correctness machine"? Give me a break! There is no machine. Political correctness is a bugbear dreamed up by American conservatives. They were so successful that it's taken on a life of its own and now everyone bows to it. That's how you get crap like "freedom fries" and endless bitching about the New Yorker's satirical Obama cover -- there's no real source to pin it on, we're just all perpetuating the phenomenon because we assume that someone, somewhere is actually enforcing it. (That's how most of society operates, anyway. Panopticon and all that.)

-- Alex

 

[Alex_P]

She wasn't remotely offended, just creeped out at the Japanese.

What's weird is that this game is from a studio in Seattle.

-- Alex

 

[Alex_P]

But the irony is still there, the person who came up and drew the art style with characters and stuff IS a woman.

It's a Catch-22 really.

Umm, how?

The idea that all of society -- men and women together -- are indoctrinated to perpetuate negative, sexist social norms is kind of a staple of feminist theory.

-- Alex

 

[Jumplion]

But the irony is still there, the person who came up and drew the art style with characters and stuff IS a woman.

It's a Catch-22 really.

Umm, how?

The idea that all of society -- men and women together -- are indoctrinated to perpetuate negative, sexist social norms is kind of a staple of feminist.

-- Alex

Sorry, that was a sentence placement error. I was reffering to the other paragraphs of how nomatter what they do they're still going to be angry.

But the irony is still there, oh how delicious!

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

But the irony is still there, the person who came up and drew the art style with characters and stuff IS a woman.

It's a Catch-22 really.

Umm, how?

The idea that all of society -- men and women together -- are indoctrinated to perpetuate negative, sexist social norms is kind of a staple of feminist.

-- Alex

Now that really is a Catch 22. Anything we do wrong is due to your conditioning of us.

Remind me, when was the last time you saw an intelligent, socially functioning male on a sitcom/soap opera?

 

[LewsTherin]

She was about strategic warfare and cunning tactics, He favours the classic barbarians R.R.P.B. Raid, Rape, Pillage and Burn.

What better way to leave your mark and say "Don't screw with us!"?

Though in Roman mythology (Mars) he's actually portrayed as a smart man who is respected while the Greek mythology (Ares) is portrayed as a coward. So it depends on which culture you're referencing.

God i love greek mythology.

But we forget the TRUE masters of pillaging, the Norse.

Cutting out your own eye and hanging yourself for knowledge just screams hardcore. As well as putting your hand in a giant wolfs' mouth as your buddy runs a chain around it? The Aesir knew how to own.

EDIT* Actually, the true masters of the pillage rape and murder were the Vandals/Goths, but I don't know their mythos

 

[PedroSteckecilo]

She wasn't remotely offended, just creeped out at the Japanese.

What's weird is that this game is from a studio in Seattle.

-- Alex

Got caught in that one, it was such a strange concept we just assumed it was japanese.

 

[PedroSteckecilo]

She was about strategic warfare and cunning tactics, He favours the classic barbarians R.R.P.B. Raid, Rape, Pillage and Burn.

What better way to leave your mark and say "Don't screw with us!"?

Though in Roman mythology (Mars) he's actually portrayed as a smart man who is respected while the Greek mythology (Ares) is portrayed as a coward. So it depends on which culture you're referencing.

God i love greek mythology.

Mars was meant to exemplify the Roman Citizen Soldier, and served a much different purpose in Roman Mythology. The greeks didn't like Ares, they saw him as something negative, whereas Mars was one of the Two Prime Gods of Rome (the other being Vesta or Hestia, goddess of the hearth and home) and couldn't be portrayed as vain, cruel and tempramental like Ares was. They are VERY different Gods, just like Saturn and Chronos. As well the Romans weren't as fond of flawed Gods and Goddesses as the greeks were and tended to treat their divinities with a little more reverance.

 

[Torment40]

Whilst I do agree with feminists that there is still a lot of sex-based bias, I disagree with her view that it isn't going too far. To demonstrate my point, as recently as last week I saw on another forum that feminist's are pushing to change 'History' to 'Herstory' because History is apparently a sexist stab...ridiculous, no? I know that's just one example but if need be I can find many more, such as the argument that we shouldn't always assume, say, a video game player is a he, which is also ridiculous because most video game players 9 times out of 10 ARE male, and while that one is slightly more plausible, it's stupid to say it's a direct attack. It's foolish and arrogant to say males are not biased bigots because we are, that's our nature lol. But conversely, the feminist movement in itself is becoming incredibly sexist, not to mention outright ludicrous and filled with hypocrisy, it won't be long before the feminist movement is as credible as the Political Correctness machine

But feminism isn't one unified movement. Anyone who wants to be a "feminist" can just say so and, poof, they will be thought of as a "feminist" -- especially on the Internet. That's why you get utterly sexist bullshit from self-described "feminists" sometimes.

Another problem is that many modern feminist thinkers speak in the ovewrought language of philosophy and critical theory, rendering their thoughts confusing to anyone who hasn't been taught how to slog through this arcane stuff at a university.

Mostly, though, it's simply that people insist on taking any random statement a feminist makes and ascribing it to feminists. This is stupid.

Also: "political correctness machine"? Give me a break! There is no machine. Political correctness is a bugbear dreamed up by American conservatives. They were so successful that it's taken on a life of its own and now everyone bows to it. That's how you get crap like "freedom fries" and endless bitching about the New Yorker's satirical Obama cover -- there's no real source to pin it on, we're just all perpetuating the phenomenon because we assume that someone, somewhere is actually enforcing it. (That's how most of society operates, anyway. Panopticon and all that.)

-- Alex

Do you really think the layman is smart enough to actually realize Political Correctness is stupid? If they were it would have ended long ago. Personally I prefer it in force because it's funny to watch people squirm when you hear a child ask for 'that black milkshake' and everyone assumes the child is therefore prejudiced thanks to the 'indoctrination of society'. The true problem behind all this is the ridiculous fear of offending anyone for fear of instantly being outcast as a 'social nazi' or a 'bigot', two words which seem to end every sentence I hear said in History class at my college.

As to your points, I ascribe the statements various feminists make to all feminists because they have a terrible habit of doing exactly the same with any statement made in the media and I'm not prepared to actually have a debate with them if they're going to react like that. I'm all for the female's on equal rights but I totally disagree with the way they're going about getting them. If they make stupid statements like the 'Herstory' crap, they lose credibility, if they use advanced expression, then the layman and indeed, half the governments in the world won't understand what the hell they're talking about. What I'm getting at is the feminists NEED a central unified body with a reasonable stance towards the situation, because if they are all divided, no one will listen to them and their voice will be much weaker.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

In addition to Torment's post:

There's an awfully large number of 'feminists' who are pushing the boundaries of feminism to include their own little agenda.
No sane human wants half the race to be placed in a form of slavery, but with all the minorities fighting one another; the top minority just keeps on doing what they want and splitting the blame between the various factions below them.

The main causes of -isms, as I see them at the moment, is the unrealistic expectations of the layman, coupled with the unrealistic reparation fees paid to whichever minority looks for them. That's where all the hatred comes from.

I'll stand side by side with the Muslim woman who doesn't want to be circumcised, the Hispanic forced away from medical care and the Single Father who can't get access to his children; but I won't put one in front of the other.

 

[Jumplion]

(I am truely sorry if any of this comes off as sexist, which I'm sure it will, but i just have to say)

I'm sorry if this comes off as sexist, but feminists (mainly the crazy ones) need to shut their trap and be quite about the whole "EQUALITY!!!#" thing because as history shows us, women have taken the back seat most of the time (to my knowledge)

Seriously, out of the top of my head i could name dozens of famous males (not in video games) who invented, ruled, or discovered something. Infact, here's what i can think of;

(celebrities don't count, mainly before 2000)

Famous Males:
Alexander the Great
Grahm Bell
Benjamin Franklin
George Washington
Red Baron
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
Beethoven
John Sabasient Bach
Martin Luther King Jr.
Ralph Baer (10 cookies for whoever knows who that is)
And a slew of other people (MALES) that invented so many other things. It doesn't help that if i included video games that every single one of them would be male, non female to my knowledge

Out of the top of my head, i can only think of these famous females:
Famous Females:
Cleopatra
The woman who discovered Uranium (DAMNIT i forgot her name just then!)
Queen Elizabeth (all of them i guess?)

And even the Uranium woman had help from her husband, a MALE (that's a point against the feminists, not famous females)

That's out of the top of my head, feel free to add to the list of the famous women because that is really the only one i can think of.

The point being that feminists (again, the crazy ones) all complain about how women are treated unfairly when really, what have they done to contribute to society? They did help soldiers during wars and gave hospitality, but that is nothing compared to actually doing to fighting and killing (no offense to any of those women, they have hearts of gold). They help doctors in surgery, but most male doctors do the actual surgery and there's more pressure on them (again, not all the time but i have been to surgery before and the anestethis was a woman). Women (alot of the times) take the back seat of the car voluntarily and then complain they don't get to drive.

So until females start discovering a cure for a serious disease or virus, create a new effiecient way to store engery, and some other things I'll be all for Equality of females but until then just shut up and actually do something for society instead of moaning and complaining.

(again, i am very sorry if anyone is offended by this and if you have something to add to this by all means go ahead and add wether it be good or bad. Just don't be an idiot.)