So it seems Hotline Miami 2 has rape in it...

[Six Ways]

I don't subscribe to the ignorance justification school of thought. If something you don't know bothers you, you should enlighten yourself. Even if your conclusion is the same at least you will be reacting to what is and not what might be.

The main point of my argument, which you don't seem to take issue with, is that scene's narrative thrust is not about the actual assault but how Lara deals with it, and the implications for her character going forward from that point. In that context what type of assault it "could have been" becomes largely secondary if not completely eclipsed by the fact that she has for the first time shot someones face off and has to deal with it. Granted this was undercut by the her suddenly becoming Rambo after killing a man in self-defense.

I think we're at odds here because as far as I'm concerned, that scene depicts a rape in progress which suddenly and, honestly, somewhat inexplicably becomes something unrelated. Along the same lines, I disagree that what follows washes that all away. I mean, clearly it was supposed to look like rape. And it was supposed to elicit a reaction in the player of fear and shock. So they can't both say "It's rape! Be shocked!" and then say "Wait, don't be offended, it's not rape!".

I'm not saying I personally was offended, but I don't think you can use this argument to dismiss criticism. Same with Hotline, even though again I don't think it shouldn't have a rape scene.

Genuinely wondering how you would have preferred they handle it more sensitively?

As someone else said, the idea that it was an event that made her a stronger person was... misguided.

As far as what can trigger a victim, do you honestly have any clue the massive amount of stuff that can cause that? ... I do look down on those who expect society to cater to their ever impulse regardless of how legit the cause is.

I'm aware of the infinite breadth of potential triggers, yes, and I absolutely agree. I'm not advocating censorship or anything of the sort. There's no way to protect everyone from everything, nor should there be a responsibility to do so. I'm in favour of sensitivity in these matters and consideration of whether a given work is the right place for such content.

 

[Six Ways]

I'm just sick and tired of this new-wave feminist bullshit that arises and forces artists to censor their work because it "paints women in a bad light."

Please don't use the word censorship like this. It's already been said in this very thread that criticism is not censorship. Feminists are trying to bring a different perspective to the industry, which it sorely needs. Encouraging the creation of more female-friendly art is not censorship.

 

[Headdrivehardscrew]

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/escapist-news-now/7559-Hotline-Miami-2-Preview

Watch the preview. You can clearly see a fat character raping a woman who's crawling on the floor.

So let me ask the all important question, does that fact that it's retro graphics make it more palatable? After all Tomb Raider couldn't even have an enemy "Aggressively Stalk" it's female protagonist with out the whole internet blowing up.

Cool. Can't wait.

I'm pretty much through with responding to the torrent of outrage, especially all this good guy nonsense about telling me what is and isn't alright to consume... and how to consume it. Enough, let them discuss these oh so important things in their own fun little circles, just make them pester me no more. I was raped, I survived, I've seen murder, death and mayhem and friggin' man-made hell of earth, some variations of it and it's all the same to me. I watch movies, I read books, I play games. Nothing I've seen, read or heard in a work of fiction has offended or annoyed me as much as these out-of-control dickheads and thundercunts telling me what to think of some game or how to judge whatever teaser or pixellated mess I'm looking at. If their lives suck, I am pretty certain it's not my fault. I don't want them to piss in my soup, that is all. Life's too short to be bothered by the always-offended crowd, no matter if they come in hardcore religious flavour or the LBGTESDFLKEJRFDINE one-size-fits-all emotional diarrhea pants. Let me play my games. Come join me, if you will. Just leave your sense of entitlement to judge everyone and everything at the doorstep, if you will, or I will plough my waffle iron straight through your face. Thank you come again.

 

[Vale]

1. He's not actually raping her... though choking someone to death is still very nasty.
2. It's a movie shoot, a director yells "cut", all the actors get up off the ground from their bloody puddles of entrails, director calls it a wrap for the day.
3. This is HOTLINE MIAMI. There is literally no depth of depravity this game hasn't already sunken to in the first iteration, you really, really should not be surprised by this. You can boycott it if you want, I guess.

 

[marcooos]

The reason this is a problem is because 1 out of every 6 women have been a victim of rape or attempted rape.

Yes, murder > rape. But murdered people aren't alive to complain about how horrible these things are, and rape is pretty much the next most brutal crime (exceptions DO exist), it's humiliating, painful, and mentally scarring, and you have to turn to a society that lets a huge number of these people go. Almost everybody knows somebody whom was a victim of this.

By having this topic in their game, they bring it up, and can cause a lot of pain of the remembrance of the event, and the event can't ever really be resolved, so it's just causing pointless pain.

It's only really a problem because so many women have gone through this. Yes, I'm sure a kidnapping scene in a game could freak the hell out of a person who was a victim of a kidnapping, (especially if it were fairly brutal) but there aren't many victims of kidnapping out there. In addition, there's better resources and no societal stigmas about being kidnapped.

This game will not further the discussion on rape, it's just going to feed another 5000 posts in this everlasting pissing contest until real people who actually matter (rights groups, lawmakers) work with these issues. No game could offer anything that hasn't already been said in ALL CAPS a million times. Not in a medium where we get 30 different AAA first and third person shooters each year.

So don't bring up the topic, we're not ready to handle it, and it doesn't add anything.

Oh get off your high horse, it's Hotline Miami the entire premise is extreme violence and disgust. Newsflash a fucking rape victim shouldnt be playing it if they suffer flashbacks

 

[DudeistBelieve]

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/escapist-news-now/7559-Hotline-Miami-2-Preview

Watch the preview. You can clearly see a fat character raping a woman who's crawling on the floor.

So let me ask the all important question, does that fact that it's retro graphics make it more palatable? After all Tomb Raider couldn't even have an enemy "Aggressively Stalk" it's female protagonist with out the whole internet blowing up.

Cool. Can't wait.

I'm pretty much through with responding to the torrent of outrage, especially all this good guy nonsense about telling me what is and isn't alright to consume... and how to consume it. Enough, let them discuss these oh so important things in their own fun little circles, just make them pester me no more. I was raped, I survived, I've seen murder, death and mayhem and friggin' man-made hell of earth, some variations of it and it's all the same to me. I watch movies, I read books, I play games. Nothing I've seen, read or heard in a work of fiction has offended or annoyed me as much as these out-of-control dickheads and thundercunts telling me what to think of some game or how to judge whatever teaser or pixellated mess I'm looking at. If their lives suck, I am pretty certain it's not my fault. I don't want them to piss in my soup, that is all. Life's too short to be bothered by the always-offended crowd, no matter if they come in hardcore religious flavour or the LBGTESDFLKEJRFDINE one-size-fits-all emotional diarrhea pants. Let me play my games. Come join me, if you will. Just leave your sense of entitlement to judge everyone and everything at the doorstep, if you will, or I will plough my waffle iron straight through your face. Thank you come again.

Don't shoot the messenger bro.

I'm actually very sad. The word is this is the last Hotline Miami game, and I find that fact deeply depressing.

 

[Froggy Slayer]

It's an exploitation film in video game form. It's supposed to be as tasteless and wildly offensive as possible. Sure, you can be offended, but I don't think that something as ridiculously over-the-top as Hotline Miami is propagating rape culture.

 

[sumanoskae]

I've said it before and I'll say it again; depiction is not support, in fact it's often the opposite. By refusing to acknowledge the grotesque aspects of our existence we make them stronger, not weaker.

Further more, I'd rather something be said openly and in bad taste than no said at all. Sometimes being loudly and aggressively corrected is the only thing that will open your eyes.

Got to say this sums up my opinion exactly. Nice avatar BTW.

I'm just watching a bad dream I'll never wake up from

 

[CriticalMiss]

Uh oh. A game is getting mixed up with the r-word. Even though it appears that the scene is... well a scene I doubt that will appease the angry mobs. Remember how they got pissed off at the not-actually-a-rape-scene-in-any-way in Tomb Raider? This will probably be worse. There's butt-crack!

So I'll be holing up in my bunker and playing Half Life 2 until the inevitable shitstorm blows over.

 

[Hazy]

I'm just sick and tired of this new-wave feminist bullshit that arises and forces artists to censor their work because it "paints women in a bad light."

Please don't use the word censorship like this. It's already been said in this very thread that criticism is not censorship. Feminists are trying to bring a different perspective to the industry, which it sorely needs. Encouraging the creation of more female-friendly art is not censorship.

Though, to be fair, the two often go hand in hand. Criticism can very easily lead to censorship, and forcing artists to change their viewpoint for the sake of another person's own ideals is censorship.

I'm hoping that, if the tides turn, Dennaton stands their ground.

 

[Lieju]

Here's my problem with how rape is depicted in media:

It's way too often put in there to get in sex, because heavens, no, we can't have women and men engaging in consensual sex and women wanting sex. Think of the children!

And this is a problem with stuff aimed at women too. Look at 50 shades, and how the main female character must be coerced and raped by the main male lead(because she must stay innocent, and not actively pursue sex), and how this is presented as romantic.

In a game like this I don't see it as such a problem, because the whole thing is shocking violence.

I do think it's silly, though, how gamers are so quick to be offended by any criticism they imagine because they want to rally against feminists or whatever.

The only people I see getting upset over this are people who want to get upset at people criticizing rape in games.

Pretty much this. The whole obsession with virginity is actually blatantly fucking unhealthy, there's nothing wrong with being a virgin but people are treating rape as something romantic because enjoying sex is somehow wrong.

It's not that the view is that enjoying sex is wrong, exactly, it's that women should not go looking for sex actively, or be sexually experienced. And just magically know how to be good in bed when she has sex for the first time.

The problem is often, (like in 50 shades) that the female lead must be prsented as 'innocent', and coerced into sex (and outright raped), which is then justified with 'she enjoyed it, so it's not rape', which is fucking disgusting.
This is the idea that's sold to women as 'romantic'.

But of course rape is also outright fetishized.

The US media has a very unhealthy relationship with sex.

Though, to be fair, the two often go hand in hand. Criticism can very easily lead to censorship, and forcing artists to change their viewpoint for the sake of another person's own ideals is censorship.

I'm hoping that, if the tides turn, Dennaton stands their ground.

I guess Yahtzee is then the most pro-censorship game-journalist, then, and all the complaints about XBone are gamers being pro-censorship and everyone should just say positive things about any product.

I'm really tired of people hiding from criticism with 'you're trying to censor me!'.
Especially when it comes to something like the portrayal of women in games.

If I criticise COD for being linear and dull, no-one is yelling at me for trying to censor it, for some reason...

The freedom of experession doesn't mean freedom from opposing viewpoints.

 

[Yuuki]

I'm just sick and tired of this new-wave feminist bullshit that arises and forces artists to censor their work because it "paints women in a bad light."

Please don't use the word censorship like this. It's already been said in this very thread that criticism is not censorship. Feminists are trying to bring a different perspective to the industry, which it sorely needs. Encouraging the creation of more female-friendly art is not censorship.

Encouraging the creation of female-friendly art =/= discouraging the creation of not-female-friendly art. One doesn't "replace" the other, there is endless room for both to co-exist.

Unfortunately this new wave of videogame/internet feminists feels that the first step to making media/art more female-friendly is to criticize what ISN'T female-friendly, pointing a finger at the artist and yelling "I am criticizing your work, it offends me as a female, stop doing it! Stop it! Stop it!".
To which the artist can only reply "Thank you for your feedback. But as long as I have a market to sell to, I will keep making what sells. Your feedback has been noted, now kindly fuck off and ***** about something else." Or at least I wish artists/developers had the balls to say that -_-

I'm all for freedom of speech/opinion and open criticism of every form of art. I actually want to see the feminists succeed in their ultimate goal of having more female-friendly art/media...but unfortunately most of them are THICK and can't comprehend how the entertainment industry and the market in general works. They believe that a market can't possibly exist for anything that they don't like.

Tomorrow they can make a videogame about a super-powered female who runs around the city chopping men's balls off while super-powered males in turn rape women en-masse and I wouldn't even bat an eye, because if the market for such a game existed then they are free to indulge in it while I am equally free to continue not giving a shit.

A society where an artist is free to create anything and doesn't get bashed for "offending" a certain group with fictional work will be the most peaceful society in existence.
Hmm...actually such a society does exist, it's called Japan! Nobody judges you (or cares) about what sort of crazy fantasies you indulge in as long as it doesn't affect anyone else negatively, doesn't break the law and you have the decency not to go around blabbing on about it. If only the rest of the world took a clue from them

 

[Something Amyss]

All I remember from the Tomb Raider thing was a lot of people yelling "LAURAS GONNA GET RAPED" and it turned out she wasn't.

all we had to go one was the developer talking about it as rape and visual and audio cues. What fools we were to believe THAT.

lol.

Please don't ***** at others for not portraying the controversies right when you can't get them right your self. The "defininng, character-building moment for Lara Croft," was never about the actual assault.

That's not how the dev portrayed it, and it still looks like some heavy retconning went on after the fact. But if it makes you feel better to claim I'm misportraying people when the OP admitted he was just stirring the pot, then *shrug*

 

[Gigano]

Well, the movie Irréversible had rape in it too.

Since this is supposed to be a sort of throwback "exploitation flick" game, it'd be strange for it to not feature any sexual violence. 70's and 80's exploitation films were choke full of it, so if it's paying homage to them, it'd be strange to leave out that element entirely.

Plus, easy controversy = free publicity... which is also how exploitation films did things.

 

[Six Ways]

snip

I think you're seeing this from the wrong perspective.

The aim is not to force self-censorship. The aim is to change attitudes; to show people the underlying sexism which informs a lot of stuff. To get devs to think about their position, and hopefully say "Yeah, I get where you're coming from now. This isn't cool." The result being a progression in how art is made in the first place, not censorship of that art.

I'd also point out that more and more devs appear to be honestly taking this on board, as does much of the media. I don't hold with your view that most devs want to tell feminists to fuck off, that they only consider the "market". Publishers? Probably - they're in it for the money. But it's not like they have the artistic integrity that you're defending in your post. Devs themselves seem to be responding well.

Also, consider from a feminist perspective - there's no point in censorship if people still hold subconsciously sexist attitudes. That doesn't change society.

forcing artists to change their viewpoint for the sake of another person's own ideals is censorship.

Encouraging artists to analyse their subconscious ideals, and reconsider their opinion of the art they want to make, is not.

 

[Archer666]

This is a game where you pour boiling water down peoples throats, dig your thumbs into their eyes until the eyes pop, you brutalize a man who can't fight back and other acts of sickening violence. You play a completely amoral psychopath with no regards to any other human being. Rape is a serious issue and all, but I feel that it fits the tone the game sets up.

 

[Yuuki]

I think you're seeing this from the wrong perspective.

The aim is not to force self-censorship. The aim is to change attitudes; to show people the underlying sexism which informs a lot of stuff. To get devs to think about their position, and hopefully say "Yeah, I get where you're coming from now. This isn't cool." The result being a progression in how art is made in the first place, not censorship of that art.

"This isn't cool". What if they developers are fully aware if some things may not sit well with some people, but added it in regardless because that's how they wanted their art to be? Are they doing it out of a underlying hatred or discrimination against women? That's essentially what the word "sexist" means nowadays, a word used by feminists.

I'd also point out that more and more devs appear to be honestly taking this on board, as does much of the media. I don't hold with your view that most devs want to tell feminists to fuck off, that they only consider the "market". Publishers? Probably - they're in it for the money. But it's not like they have the artistic integrity that you're defending in your post. Devs themselves seem to be responding well.

What drives the market? Consumers. You and me. Where do publishers pull their money from, thin air? Of course not, they get it from consumers - so it's in their best interests to try different things, see what sells well and what doesn't (on the grand scale consumers show their support or dislike with their wallets) and move forward from there.

Also, consider from a feminist perspective - there's no point in censorship if people still hold subconsciously sexist attitudes. That doesn't change society.

"Subconsciously sexist". I don't think you know what that means. It does not make the artist subconsciously sexist if they prefer writing male protagonists instead of female protagonists, for instance. It does not make the artist subconsciously sexist if they decide to include something like rape into their art.

Yes, a female may look at art, point a finger at the artist and say "I find this offensive!". That is their criticism, their opinion and nothing else. Absolutely no conclusion can be drawn whether the artist truly had "subconsciously sexist" motives behind their work.

For example, I know some people who call studios like Team Ninja sexist for designing their female characters with revealing clothing and massively exaggerated jiggle physics. Some people have "concluded" that Team Ninja is truly designing their female characters out of a discriminating hatred (or at least holding negative attitudes) towards women...and I can only laugh at such a notion and pity those who don't understand how markets and industries work.

 

[Legion]

If people bothered to read Scylne's post on the front page you'd see that the developer responded on twitter.

Spoiler: He stated (game spoilers):

There is a twist that they don't show in the footage on Escapist which clearly disqualifies it as a rape scene.

If you want me to spoil it, the second after what you saw in the clip at Escapist that whole level is shown to be a film shoot.

The fact so many people are still raging about it, pretty much shows that people just want to make a big deal out of this stuff, both those complaining that it exists, and those defending it for no reason.

 

[Six Ways]

What if they developers are fully aware if some things may not sit well with some people, but added it in regardless because that's how they wanted their art to be?

I've already said I support the use of rape in this game. I agree with (what I have understood to be) Dennaton's artistic intent with the Hotline Miami franchise. If developers honestly consider the criticism and still feel they're right to do whatever it is they're doing, fine. That doesn't mean people will agree with them though, and criticism may still be aimed at them.

What drives the market? Consumers. You and me. Where do publishers pull their money from, thin air?

The creation of pro-female art isn't going to kill your profits. Perhaps it'll reduce them. Perhaps, in the long term, it'll increase them by expanding the market. Either way, it's not the key point - economic arguments do not change ethics. There may not be profit in fighting inequality, but that's not a good argument not to try.

It does not make the artist subconsciously sexist if they prefer writing male protagonists instead of female protagonists, for instance.

Think about it the other way round. A preference for male protagonists may not be due to subconscious sexism, but subconscious sexism may cause an artist to prefer writing male protagonists. I'm not saying "A->B, therefore B->A". But the fact that there is such a conspicuous imbalance suggests there may be a systemic societal bias at play. [footnote]Consider - if it was purely unbiased preferences, you'd expect to see a more even (not totally even, mind, and possibly not even particularly close, but more even than in reality) split between developers writing male and female protagonists.[/footnote]

Some people have "concluded" that Team Ninja is truly designing their female characters out of a discriminating hatred (or at least holding negative attitudes) towards women...and I can only laugh at such a notion and pity those who don't understand how markets and industries work.

Another oft-used fallacy - that "market forces" and "sexism" are mutually exclusive. The market's imbalance towards males could be caused by subconscious societal sexism. In my personal opinion, that is highly likely.

Captcha: Pants on the ground.