So, on a scale of 1-10, how bad is this?
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I wouldn't rate it, because there are so many things that can be done that are horrible, but this is disgusting. Drunk or not. You're not overreacting, and it's good that you called him out on it.
He took advantage of his drunk, passed out friend. That's pretty sick.
He took advantage of his drunk, passed out friend. That's pretty sick.
Please argue against the point I made instead of insulting me personally.JoesshittyOs said:
I disagree that it 'isn't that big of a deal'. I think it is a huge deal.JoesshittyOs said:
Imagine if you were the girl involved, would you want to know? I certainly would, because I wouldn't want to spend any more time at all with some guy who molested me in my sleep. I would want that person out of my life completely forever, and they would deserve it.
I wouldn't inform the police, however I'd fully back up the girl in question if she chose to, and I would definitely make sure she found out, either from him confessing or by me telling.
This may be true, but bear in mind, anything above a 2 is FUCKING CREEPY SHIT and you just don't do that shit. It doesn't really make sense to quibble about whether it was a 5, 6, or 8. The LINE is at 3. And he crossed it.Gimelbub said:
Get some perspective.Woodsey said:
Sexually assaulting someone with your hands isn't any better than sexually assaulting them with your genitals. What is done to them is the same--a sexual violation of their body. All that's different is how you chose to do it.
In that regard, it's like someone who killed a person arguing it's somehow "better" because they chose a different weapon. I'm certainly not arguing that rape is as permanent as murder, I'm simply making it clear that the method doesn't change the severity of the crime.
It completely and entirely works, unless you're overreacting to the use of the word "murder." Again, I didn't in any way indicate I was saying rape is comparable in severity to murder.
Ah, so if someone sexually assaults a woman with a phallic object, rather than his own penis, that's okay? It's "not as bad as rape?"Mr.Pandah said:
What makes rape awful is what happens to the victim. And whether you're being sexually assaulted and intruded upon by hands or by genitals, the result is the same. Your body is being sexually attacked without your permission.
How the attacker chooses to do it doesn't change that. If I rob you with a knife, or I rob you with a gun, I'm still robbing you. If I kill you with poison, or I kill you with a bulldozer, I'm still killing you. If I sexually assault you with my hands (or some object), or I do so with my penis, I'm still raping you.
Seriously, why apologize for this guy in any regard?
Ooh... that is just wrong. That is a huge breach of trust... Life 
You reaction is justified, and I will go with 6-7 on the bad scale. The bad scale is logarithmic and works on powers of ten. 1 is an almost paper-cut, 10 is genocide.
You reaction is justified, and I will go with 6-7 on the bad scale. The bad scale is logarithmic and works on powers of ten. 1 is an almost paper-cut, 10 is genocide.
FlamingJimmy said pretty much much my response, your a ass for insulting me because I choose to put my morals before a friend, and your 20 times the ass for thinking it's okay to let this happen, it is a big deal and you seem to be one of the few people here that thinks it isn't.flamingjimmy said:
More importantly, if somebody molests a close friend in her sleep, I'm not sure how badly I'd want that guy backing me up in a fight or some other situation where I might need his help/time/advice/assistance.lord.jeff said:
Doesn't sound like the most dependable friend, you know?
Yes you are overreacting. If he was drunk, then while it is bad, his judgement is clouded. I do all sorts of stupid things intoxicated.
Dude, I don't think you've ever been legitimate friend if you think it's okay to let something like this slide. Friendship isn't about going out for beers together or going to parties together or checking out chicks and being like "Yo, I'd totally bone her." It's about backing each other up when a fight breaks out, letting somebody stay overnight on 5 minutes' notice because of an emergency, calling in a few favors to get your friend out of a tight spot. You know. That sort of shit.JoesshittyOs said:
Frankly, if a guy molests his own friend in her sleep, I'm not sure how dependable the man is. And I certainly wouldn't want him as my friend, backing me up in fights and whatnot.
I don't know how so many people can brush this issue off as no big deal. There's no overreaction because this basically tells you what this guy has the potential of being.
Being drunk is supposed to remove your inhibitions. That tells me that if he did this whilst drunk off his ass, it was always a secret dark desire. Maybe it could be lightened up with the whole "he loves her, oh so bloody much..." But surely you've all heard about all the terrible things that can happen in the name of "love." What will happen if they get together again, get drunk and he wants to do more? Maybe next time he wouldn't even wait until she was officially out cold. Considering he remembers what he did, the guy wasn't that drunk. He knew what he was doing. Just because he smartened up to stop himself from doing worse shouldn't exempt him.
Hell, if this guy had given her a roofie, people would have been singing a different tune, I'm sure. I mean, it's basically the same effect. A girl is knocked out or passed out. Helpless, unaware, completely at a guy's mercy.
The only difference is that this person was supposed to be this chick's friend and he didn't mean to make her pass out. Or so he claims anyway. But it was still a violation. I notice no one is denying it's a violation. So far a lot of you are just claiming that he should just get a slap on the wrist.
Except for the ones who think his act should be kicked and the girl should know. I agree with that. It should be up to her whether charges are pressed. She likely wouldn't get rape but other charges oughta work. Besides, who are any of us to say what's best for her? That she'd be much better off if she never knew what happened?
Being drunk is supposed to remove your inhibitions. That tells me that if he did this whilst drunk off his ass, it was always a secret dark desire. Maybe it could be lightened up with the whole "he loves her, oh so bloody much..." But surely you've all heard about all the terrible things that can happen in the name of "love." What will happen if they get together again, get drunk and he wants to do more? Maybe next time he wouldn't even wait until she was officially out cold. Considering he remembers what he did, the guy wasn't that drunk. He knew what he was doing. Just because he smartened up to stop himself from doing worse shouldn't exempt him.
Hell, if this guy had given her a roofie, people would have been singing a different tune, I'm sure. I mean, it's basically the same effect. A girl is knocked out or passed out. Helpless, unaware, completely at a guy's mercy.
The only difference is that this person was supposed to be this chick's friend and he didn't mean to make her pass out. Or so he claims anyway. But it was still a violation. I notice no one is denying it's a violation. So far a lot of you are just claiming that he should just get a slap on the wrist.
Except for the ones who think his act should be kicked and the girl should know. I agree with that. It should be up to her whether charges are pressed. She likely wouldn't get rape but other charges oughta work. Besides, who are any of us to say what's best for her? That she'd be much better off if she never knew what happened?
Sorry, but unless she actually said yes or made advances (which she couldn't if she was passed out) then there is no consent and what he did is literally a crime. End of story. It doesn't matter if you think she may have been inviting something like that by getting drunk with the guy. Without her express consent, it's sexual assault.Leppy said:
Just because he didn't hurt her or take it any farther doesn't make it right. And if the guy is really sorry about it then he should be telling the girl what happened himself and letting her decide what action to take. If I had a friend who did that but wasn't willing to own up to it, then I would definitely tell the girl for a number of reasons. First, anyone who's capable of doing that, even if it's just while drunk, is capable of doing it again and maybe even doing more. He committed a crime and just because the victim isn't aware of it doesn't make it right, nor does it mean he should get off scott free. I'd feel a responsibility to tell the girl if only to make sure it doesn't happen again. Because if you don't tell her and she's ever in a similar situation again, you can't know for certain he wouldn't do it or worse to her. At best you'd have his word to go by, and his word wouldn't be worth much after such an egregious violation of a friends trust.JoesshittyOs said:
She needs to know if only so she can do whatever she feels is necessary to protect herself in the future. I'm all for trying to help the guy deal with what he did and why, whether that means therapy or whatever he needs, but you need to keep in mind that she is also a victim, and worse, doesn't even know what happened to her which means she could let it happen again.
A few points to consider for everyone guessing at the motivations/mindset of the guy and the severity of the fondling.
1. I see a lot of people saying "he was drunk, people do a lot of stupid things while drunk". Putting aside for one second that "people do a lot of stupid things while drunk" isn't actually a legal or ethical defense for anything, you need to keep in mind that he remembered the event well enough to detail how long it went on ("just" a few minutes) and what exactly took place ("just" fondling, no intercourse). He wasn't in the "OMG I woke up with a tattoo I don't remember getting" state of inebriation. When you're offering up specific details about what you did and didn't do and how long you did it for, you're demonstrating a clarity of awareness and memory that a lot of people would be envious of when they're sober. So it's a fairly safe assumption that he wasn't all that drunk. Drunk enough to lose his inhibitions perhaps. But not drunk enough that he wasn't aware of what he was doing, or the significance of what he was doing (stopped prior to intercourse).
2. I also see a lot of people wondering at his state of mind (he was in love!), her state of mind (she secretly wanted it!), and just exactly what it was he did in those few minutes. The only things we know for sure are he stopped short of actual intercourse, and his friend was completely disgusted. His friend, who he chose to confide this in, was completely disgusted, and rattled, and conflicted. So I'm guessing he didn't gently stroke her cheek and whisper "I love you" into her ear. We don't know what the OP's threshold for disgust is, but the fact he's talking about it in an internet forum and not at a police station suggest he's not a complete teetotaler. As to his motivation and her motivation? We know he liked her for a long time and wanted more. And we know he waited until she was helpless and unconcious before making a move. So hypothesizing that she might have secretly wanted it seems a little thin on the ground. It's possible the friend is simply an utter coward and this was the only way he COULD make his move, but utter cowards aren't usually in the business of sexually fondling women who might wake up at any moment. The safest and most rational assumption, based on the information provided by the OP, is that he wanted her, and his feelings were not reciprocated. I'm not sure about you, but when a woman who has shown no interest in my sexually gets drunk in my presence, I don't consider that implicit consent for me to start fondling her.
3. It's not THAT bad. At least he didn't RAPE her. Is this the cut off point for "bad" then? Anything before rape is hand waved as hilarious hi-jinx while drunk? Genital fondling is all-go now? Daddy, a strange man touched me in the park! Oh my god...were you raped? No, he only fondled my genitals for a few mintues. Oh, that's alright then. He was probably drunk! Can we readjust the bar for socially appropriate behavior to such a place where "genital fondling of helpless people who thought they could trust you" is unacceptable? That seems reasonable to me.
4. Stop trying to polarize the argument. Yes, there are idiots in here suggesting Mr. Fondler be taken to prison and raped to death. That is, indeed, completely ridiculous. There are also people suggesting the girl "asked for it" by getting drunk, is a ***** for "leading her friend on" (and don't we all LOVE to see bitches get their comeuppance, eh? Eh!?), and that anyone complaining about a little genital fondling of an unconcious woman is a hyper prude or a furious female. So there are idiots on both side of the equation. No, the Fondling Friend is not worse than Stalin. No, what he did was not "okay" in the slightest. No, he doesn't need to be immediately registered as a sex offender. No, the decision as to whether or not he gets registered as a sex offender does not lie with the OP, and whether he thinks the Fondling Friend is a good dude. The GIRL needs to be told, and the GIRL needs to decide just how bad the actions of the fondling friend were. It's her RIGHT to know that she was molested while sleeping, and it's her RIGHT to decide what that means to her. Maybe she DOES like the guy, and won't care. It's POSSIBLE. It's also possible she'll feel that she was sexually assaulted. It's her decision though. Hers, and hers alone.
1. I see a lot of people saying "he was drunk, people do a lot of stupid things while drunk". Putting aside for one second that "people do a lot of stupid things while drunk" isn't actually a legal or ethical defense for anything, you need to keep in mind that he remembered the event well enough to detail how long it went on ("just" a few minutes) and what exactly took place ("just" fondling, no intercourse). He wasn't in the "OMG I woke up with a tattoo I don't remember getting" state of inebriation. When you're offering up specific details about what you did and didn't do and how long you did it for, you're demonstrating a clarity of awareness and memory that a lot of people would be envious of when they're sober. So it's a fairly safe assumption that he wasn't all that drunk. Drunk enough to lose his inhibitions perhaps. But not drunk enough that he wasn't aware of what he was doing, or the significance of what he was doing (stopped prior to intercourse).
2. I also see a lot of people wondering at his state of mind (he was in love!), her state of mind (she secretly wanted it!), and just exactly what it was he did in those few minutes. The only things we know for sure are he stopped short of actual intercourse, and his friend was completely disgusted. His friend, who he chose to confide this in, was completely disgusted, and rattled, and conflicted. So I'm guessing he didn't gently stroke her cheek and whisper "I love you" into her ear. We don't know what the OP's threshold for disgust is, but the fact he's talking about it in an internet forum and not at a police station suggest he's not a complete teetotaler. As to his motivation and her motivation? We know he liked her for a long time and wanted more. And we know he waited until she was helpless and unconcious before making a move. So hypothesizing that she might have secretly wanted it seems a little thin on the ground. It's possible the friend is simply an utter coward and this was the only way he COULD make his move, but utter cowards aren't usually in the business of sexually fondling women who might wake up at any moment. The safest and most rational assumption, based on the information provided by the OP, is that he wanted her, and his feelings were not reciprocated. I'm not sure about you, but when a woman who has shown no interest in my sexually gets drunk in my presence, I don't consider that implicit consent for me to start fondling her.
3. It's not THAT bad. At least he didn't RAPE her. Is this the cut off point for "bad" then? Anything before rape is hand waved as hilarious hi-jinx while drunk? Genital fondling is all-go now? Daddy, a strange man touched me in the park! Oh my god...were you raped? No, he only fondled my genitals for a few mintues. Oh, that's alright then. He was probably drunk! Can we readjust the bar for socially appropriate behavior to such a place where "genital fondling of helpless people who thought they could trust you" is unacceptable? That seems reasonable to me.
4. Stop trying to polarize the argument. Yes, there are idiots in here suggesting Mr. Fondler be taken to prison and raped to death. That is, indeed, completely ridiculous. There are also people suggesting the girl "asked for it" by getting drunk, is a ***** for "leading her friend on" (and don't we all LOVE to see bitches get their comeuppance, eh? Eh!?), and that anyone complaining about a little genital fondling of an unconcious woman is a hyper prude or a furious female. So there are idiots on both side of the equation. No, the Fondling Friend is not worse than Stalin. No, what he did was not "okay" in the slightest. No, he doesn't need to be immediately registered as a sex offender. No, the decision as to whether or not he gets registered as a sex offender does not lie with the OP, and whether he thinks the Fondling Friend is a good dude. The GIRL needs to be told, and the GIRL needs to decide just how bad the actions of the fondling friend were. It's her RIGHT to know that she was molested while sleeping, and it's her RIGHT to decide what that means to her. Maybe she DOES like the guy, and won't care. It's POSSIBLE. It's also possible she'll feel that she was sexually assaulted. It's her decision though. Hers, and hers alone.
Sexual assault against men is often trivialized. The proper response to this is to stop trivializing sexual assault against men, not to start trivializing sexual assault against women to level the playing field.Abandon4093 said:
It's fucked up, but you said they BOTH got wasted. Now, people do a lot of dumb shit when they're wasted. I mean, people say that I threw a blanket over the balcony on New Year's Eve two years ago, but I don't remember shit.
You have every right to kick him in the dick and never talk to him again, but you (and his lady friend) should keep the alcohol factor in mind.
You have every right to kick him in the dick and never talk to him again, but you (and his lady friend) should keep the alcohol factor in mind.