So you discover that your girlfriend is transgendered.

[cerealnmuffin]

[/quote]

Someone who thinks they are something they are not is a mental defect in my opinion. I view it the same as someone who believes they're dead (A real disorder), an alien (Again, real), or a rock (Probably real, though I'll be damned if I know).[/quote]

Actually, there has been a study comparing the brains of cisgender and transgender women to find them very much alike in ways of nueron pathways etc, brains of cisgender men were found to be a different structure. Also there are numeous intersexed conditions and variances in chromosomes. What defines a man and woman for you? The parts between ones legs? Sometimes that is not clear cut and I like to think of people and their identities are much more than what is between somebody's legs. In the womb, our brains develop before our reproductive organs (we are actually female bodied up to a certain point).

 

[DefunctTheory]

I'd ditch them. I view such a thing as a mental defect. Harsh? So be it. It's my opinion and its my right.

You have the right to believe whatever you want but the real problem with your opinion is not that it is harsh; it's that it objectively wrong.

Someone who thinks they are something they are not is a mental defect in my opinion. I view it the same as someone who believes they're dead (A real disorder), an alien (Again, real), or a rock (Probably real, though I'll be damned if I know).

Um, do they believe that their sex is different from what it is? No, they believe that their gender is out of alignment with their sex, which is true.

In case you're not aware, gender and sex are not the same things:

http://www.med.monash.edu.au/gendermed/sexandgender.html

The original post was referring to someone who believes their sex is wrong, not the entire transgender category, which both the OP's and your gender identity fall under. A sex identity crisis is what I was referring too.

Your use of the word gender, by the way, is one of two used. Gender is a subclass of... whatever you are talking about. It can be used for sexual identification. In popular language, gender refers to sex. Your usage is right, but its not the only way of looking at it.

Someone who thinks they are something they are not is a mental defect in my opinion. I view it the same as someone who believes they're dead (A real disorder), an alien (Again, real), or a rock (Probably real, though I'll be damned if I know).

Actually, there has been a study comparing the brains of cisgender and transgender women to find them very much alike in ways of nueron pathways etc, brains of cisgender men were found to be a different structure. Also there are numeous intersexed conditions and variances in chromosomes. What defines a man and woman for you? The parts between ones legs? Sometimes that is not clear cut and I like to think of people and their identities are much more than what is between somebody's legs. In the womb, our brains develop before our reproductive organs (we are actually female bodied up to a certain point).

Genetics determine gender, not your brain. XY and XX, there's not much wiggle room (Though I understand there is some, but that's not what we're talking about, are we?).

As for their brains being different... so what? Their are hundreds of thousand of people living as another 'gender' as above, demonstrating traits that belong to the opposite sex without shame. They all don't go chopping down or building towers.

 

[WayOutThere]

Usage of the pronoun 'it' denotes an object or thing, so using it toward a transngeder person because you don't agree with them is referring them as non human.

I have probably not read every comment and may have just not noticed it in the comments I did read. I do not, however, remember anyone using that word. Feel free to show me wrong however I really doubt anyone who did use the word that way really means to dehumanize anyone. Intent should be the real concern here.

While the Escapist community has not exactly been performing admirably in this thread, it is filled with liberal-minded people who don't think that way.

The phrase 'it's a trap' is actually really harmful and implies that transgirls are not real girls and only exist to lead men into homosexuality, also reduces transwoman into being an object that only exists for sexual purposes.

I just didn't get the impression that the people who were saying that meant it seriously. I understand that it's insulting but again, I don't believe anyone here is actually meaning to dehumanize anyone. It's a tasteless joke but only that.

Just upset when cisgenders use wrong pronouns because somehow they feel experts of determing someone else's identity or even worse use pronouns meant for objects.

understandable

 

[razerdoh]

well if my GF was transgenderd i probably yell "ITS A TRAP" to it, the procseed to dump and kick it out of my house...

 

[cerealnmuffin]

well if my GF was transgenderd i probably yell "ITS A TRAP" to it, the procseed to dump and kick it out of my house...

May I present exhibit A?

Some people have been supportive, and though we may disagree on a point WayoutThere, I do appreciate many of the things that you have said. I grow weary of seeing posts like this last one. To some, transgender people might just be a topic to make childish jokes about, but I have had my life threatened, bullies that used their words and fists on me, been pelted with rocks by my classmates when I was only ten during recess while my teachers looked the other way, and dealt with discrimination on multiple occassions. My crime? I am just being myself.

Having to strive through all of this, has made me a stronger person with a greater sense of empathy for others, but I can deny such comments as very hurtful, especially one very early on advocating the burning of a trans person at the stake.... some people might be doing tasteless jokes.... but their comments are hurting real people.

 

[cerealnmuffin]

Thank you to all the people who posted supportive comments, but for the sake of my esteem, I am probably done with this thread. To those making fun of tg people even in jest, congrats on making fun of a marginalized miniroty group that faces physical violence and bigotry on a daily basis. As always, I am happy to answer any questions people have as long as they are worded respectfully. Feel free to email me.

 

[MadCat55329]

Well, one thing this thread has given me is a renewed belief in the value of liberal arts eduction. People seem to be bogglingly unaware of the essential language of gender studies, and mire the conversation down to arguing over semantics; I'll proceed to bunker in my ivory tower for a moment (as if I wasn't there to begin with).

One point I do think needs to be made is that claiming to not have a problem with any sort of "otherness" expressed by a person while having an emotionally negative reaction to them is exactly why bigotry continues to be a very difficult to eradicate, systemic, societal problem.

Keep in mind that nearly all of your reactions to other human beings, whether they "feel" innate or not are learned social reactions. Social normality is emphatically not defined by biology, but merely from socialization. What is 'right' and 'wrong' is defined by your community, at a large number of levels of scale.

Bringing up molecular biology in this discussion is a red herring, or at the very least belongs in an entirely different thread. What is at stake here is the reaction of human beings to gender roles. Defining gender explicitly as your genetic sex is not only incorrect terminology, but does nothing to further the conversation.

Another basic definition.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominant_privilege
As it applies to this thread:

I just didn't get the impression that the people who were saying that meant it seriously. I understand that it's insulting but again, I don't believe anyone here is actually meaning to dehumanize anyone. It's a tasteless joke but only that.

Statements like these practically define cissexual privilege. They are diminutive and merely rationalize internalized bigotry, and since I'm in academic mode, I'm also in "no sense of humor" mode. The very idea that these types of ideas are "harmless" doesn't mean anything when it comes from the dominant party.

I understand that you personally offer no animosity here, but that's exactly what's so insidious about societal privilege. Honestly it feels unfair to be called out like this, and I'm not calling you a bad person, there's just a huge weight of things behind that statement you made. Please understand that I hold you in the highest respect.

I know the "you can't use that word" cliche is frustrating from the outside, but the last thing we are in is a gender-blind or colorblind society. In an environment where many transgendered people feel that 'stealth' is the only option that will *keep them from being murdered* it is unjust to minimalize the oppression this population feels.

-Goodbye!-

Cerealnmuffin, you are courageous woman. Outing yourself even in the relatively safe anonymity of the internet is not easy. Don't let anyone else tell you who you are, and keep fighting the good fight.

 

[chris89300]

I have to agree with MadCat, even if I get constantly reminded that "gay" is wrong by straight people that don't even know me ... and yes, it IS frustrating, but hey, my gay pals don't give a rat's ass since they know me, and I couldn't care less about strangers.

For anyone who doesn't yet get the difference between "gender" and "sex", it's quite simple actually:

Sex = penis or vagina
Gender = more on an emotional level, like how do you act, like a guy or a woman

And yes, hip, hip, hooray for Cerealnmuffin for having the guts to discuss this publicly, you go, girl !

-Edit:- (found the button, lol)
There was a typo, so I fixed it.

 

[WayOutThere]

The very idea that these types of ideas are "harmless" doesn't mean anything when it comes from the dominant party.

I've been quick to give the Escapist community the benefit of the doubt. The reason is that on this site when the related topic of homosexuality has come up I've observed a near universal acceptance of it and I assumed that would naturally translate over to acceptance of gender variance. Perhaps not.

Still, I never said the ideas expressed within these jokes are harmless. Of course they're not. What I said is that I don't believe the ideas expressed within these jokes are actually believed by the people who made them. If you don't believe these ideas you won't act on them, if you won't act on them they have no serious ability to cause harm*. You end up left with nothing but a tasteless joke. As you know, the internet is anonymous. Someone who does not seriously believe these ideas might still carelessly toss out a joke that contains them. Making one joke, especially on the internet, containing a bigoted idea is not proof that you are a bigot. That's all I'm saying.

* I can think of one exception. Gender variant people reading these comments might mistakenly believe that the people writing them actually believe this stuff which can further sink them into depression about the shit they face from society as has already happened on this thread.

 

[ajemas]

Eugh, I just got the willies. Don't get me wrong, I think that people have the complete right to do whatever they want with their bodies, as long as it doesn't hurt anybody else. (including visually. It is reasonable to say that somebody who wants to have a blue whale dick grafted onto their head should not be able to.) Still, if you are going to be dating somebody else, and if you are going to have sex, it should still be expected that they tell you about who they were.
Anyway, assuming we had sex, I don't know what I would do. Even being attracted to somebody that was once a man would be very freaky. I think about things from the scientific standpoint, and they are still a male; no matter what they do to try and change that. I'm not saying that they shouldn't be allowed to try and live a different life, but they are still men. I guess that I would just try to forget about the whole thing.
If, however, it was somebody like a co-worker who I had no attraction to before I found out, then I couldn't care less.

 

[ajemas]

Someone who thinks they are something they are not is a mental defect in my opinion. I view it the same as someone who believes they're dead (A real disorder), an alien (Again, real), or a rock (Probably real, though I'll be damned if I know).[/quote]

Actually, there has been a study comparing the brains of cisgender and transgender women to find them very much alike in ways of nueron pathways etc, brains of cisgender men were found to be a different structure. Also there are numeous intersexed conditions and variances in chromosomes. What defines a man and woman for you? The parts between ones legs? Sometimes that is not clear cut and I like to think of people and their identities are much more than what is between somebody's legs. In the womb, our brains develop before our reproductive organs (we are actually female bodied up to a certain point).[/quote]

I always defined it in terms of chromosomes. Two X's and you're a female, one X and one Y and you're a male. (Of course, there are times when somebody might end up with one more or less of these chromosomes, but that's not the point.)
All that I'm saying is that if you are born with one X and one Y, then you are a man; and there is nothing you can do to change that.
Again, I'm not saying that people should not be allowed to get sex change operation, but I am saying that it is futile.

 

[Lexodus]

In all honesty, I'd probably freak the fuck out. However, from there it would differ, regarding on our relationship.
If it was a friend, after the initial freak-out, I'd come to terms with it and continue being their friend. However, if it was a girlfriend, I'd dump her/him. I am not comfortable with it at all. I'm fine with gay people, straight people, transvestites, and pretty much everything else, but this is the one thing that still freaks the shit out of me. I get that it's your body and you should have the right to do what you want, but you've gotta get that I'm probably going to end up vomiting. Believe me, if I could change my opinion, I would, but I can't.

 

[Daedalus1942]

This thread is sexist to any female users. Shame.

And to any transsexual women... >
-Tabs<3-

 

[Daedalus1942]

In all honesty, I'd probably freak the fuck out. However, from there it would differ, regarding on our relationship.
If it was a friend, after the initial freak-out, I'd come to terms with it and continue being their friend. However, if it was a girlfriend, I'd dump her/him. I am not comfortable with it at all. I'm fine with gay people, straight people, transvestites, and pretty much everything else, but this is the one thing that still freaks the shit out of me. I get that it's your body and you should have the right to do what you want, but you've gotta get that I'm probably going to end up vomiting. Believe me, if I could change my opinion, I would, but I can't.

Transvestites are transgendered too.
This proves how little on the subject you know.
They are not transsexuals, but they are transgendered, despite usually being completely straight males that dress in women's clothing.
Also, if you really want to try and change your opinion, you should be respectful and refer to us as her, since at least mentally we are definately more female than male.
The respectful term for male to female transsexuals is her, and the respectful term for female to males transsexuals is him.
If you are willing to acknowledge these facts I have no problem with your opinion, tohugh I do not agree with it.
-Tabs<3-

 

[Daedalus1942]

Assuming that I somehow knew him* long enough to develop a relationship without discovering his little secret, I would immediately break up with him both because I'm not into dudes and I'd like to have children. For anyone else, I really couldn't care less how they choose to live their life.

*I don't know (or care) what the politically correct pronoun is. I'm using the masculine since this assumed person was born male, and is therefore only pretending to be female.

First of all, you are wrong about calling us male. We were never male other than the corporeal shell. Our minds are very much akin to female.
Need proof? http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html.
We are not keeping secrets... we are being persecuted for trying to be who we are. We have done nothing wrong, and it seems to me like you don't even treat us as humans beings from this statement you made "For anyone else, I really couldn't care less how they choose to live their life."
Fair enough you want to have children, but if "he was a dude", it would be unlikely you'd be attracted to her in the first place.
You'd be attracted to her femininity, because guess what? You're not gay, and she's a straight woman...
-Tabs<3-

 

[Leg End]

This thread has been revived by a master Necromancer. Eh, it might have some life in it yet.

OT: (This is all hypothetically speaking because I already have my true love. For the sake of conversation, let's pretend I am single.)
Well, if I really loved her(which I would), I wouldn't give a flying meep. The physical form means nothing. Love transcends all.

Also, side mention, but... if a mod is out there, please, please tell me Fredrick2003 wasn't banned for the reason I am thinking... please tell me it was something else. Anything. Anything other than what it looks like... tell me by PM if you have to(which might actually be better)...

 

[Lexodus]

In all honesty, I'd probably freak the fuck out. However, from there it would differ, regarding on our relationship.
If it was a friend, after the initial freak-out, I'd come to terms with it and continue being their friend. However, if it was a girlfriend, I'd dump her/him. I am not comfortable with it at all. I'm fine with gay people, straight people, transvestites, and pretty much everything else, but this is the one thing that still freaks the shit out of me. I get that it's your body and you should have the right to do what you want, but you've gotta get that I'm probably going to end up vomiting. Believe me, if I could change my opinion, I would, but I can't.

Transvestites are transgendered too.
This proves how little on the subject you know.

Well excuse me for thinking there's a difference between a bloke who wears women's clothing and somebody who got his knob cut up and reshaped!
As somebody who is very firmly a man, as opposed to a woman in a man's body, that absolutely scares me shitless. Then again, it's the same with any cosmetic surgery.

I'd ditch them. I view such a thing as a mental defect. Harsh? So be it. It's my opinion and its my right.

You have the right to believe whatever you want but the real problem with your opinion is not that it is harsh; it's that it objectively wrong.

Not true; I'd say it's quite a reasonable statement, if you class a mental defect as something that differs from the norm. And I'd say that being born in the wrong body is not exactly normal, and the fact that you have to mutilate your own body to fix that only adds more weight to the argument. It's a defect because they know there's something wrong and actively have to change that to live with themselves.