So you say women are being sexualized in games, eh?

[Arqus_Zed]

Meh, old news.

It's just that, in our society, a man being sexualized (in any media) is never goning to be hammered on like a skimpy woman. Hell, just recently we had this whole outburst of the feminist community because of some women posing in their underwear on a billboard for Sloggi (brand of underpants).

In the same year, you could find billboards of men riding BUTT-NAKED on some bikes to promote the movie 'De Helaasheid Der Dingen'. Not a single negative comment to be heard. But hey, that's hypocrisy for ya.

Gears of War is a bit of a strange game to choose for your argument, though. Howsabout naked chest Dante from Devil May Cry 3, Nathan 'mr. Perfect' Drake from Uncharted or every freakin' protagonist from the Final Fantasy series...

 

[DeadlyYellow]

Solid Snake's Ass.

Indeed. Snake is far more sexualized than either Kratos or any Epic Games character. Also Batman in Arkham Asylum.

Also for talking about sexualized male characters, how has no one brought up Chou Aniki yet?

 

[Dastardly]

Comments?

"Sexualized" is the wrong way of putting it, I think. In both cases, video game males and females are being idealized... but they're being idealized according to misdirected ideals.

In the case of female characters, the "ideal" being put forth is "woman-as-sexual-interest." The characteristics that are accentuated are those that promote the viewing of this woman as a sex object. Female characters are designed according to the perceived interests of male players.

In the case of male characters, the "ideal" being put forth is the stereotypical "man's man." These kind of men are gruff, angry, and crude--displaying power, indicating they don't have to take shit from no one. The physical design is meant to match that, displaying raw physical power. (It's harder to portray mental strength in a protagonist, but so easy to show physical superiority, so that's the go-to for this kind of thing). Male characters are designed according to the perceived self-fantasies of male players.

Rather than "sexualized," these characters are inappropriately "genderized." Specifically, they are translated into a narrow interpretation of what the male gender supposedly expects of both genders. Men are shown as "what men wish to be," and women are show as "what men wish women to be." (Allegedly, that is. I'm not saying these are what all of us want and believe.)

Now, the big question:

Would it be better if roles were reversed? If games were designed based on what women believed about both genders, would the result be much different? Doubtful. Why? Because both men and women are raised in a culture that pushes the same ideals on both genders.

A "sexualized" woman is viewed by generalized men as desirable, and by generalized women as powerful. So, in a reversed situation, this stereotypical woman would still want her "fantasy self" to be portrayed as the same woman, just for opposite reasons. An "over-masculinized" man is viewed by generalized men as powerful, and by generalized women as desirable. Same deal here. Speaking very generally, men see power as a means to get sex, women see sex as a means to get power.

The issue, then, isn't whether or not games are developed from a male or female perspective. And it isn't always about sex, per se. It's that they play to antiquated and very narrow ideals that carry different baggage with them for men and women.

 

[Twad]

Yes and Yes. Both "role models" are often objectified with set avatars, maybe less of a problem where you can craft your own.

But in many ways its acceptable, other times less so. Depends on many things;

- What is the tone of the game? (realistic? gritty? Comedy?) The target audience? (age, culture) The art style?

- do you want your game to be attractive? Nice/cool-looking characters are prefered to ugly/plain ones.

- How the narrative, gameplay, cutscenes are going to show the characters? Is everyone pretty much treated the same regardless of gender? are males shown being "manly" and "virile"?, are females shown being "girly" or "desirable"? Does it insist or focus on one character because of its gender/sexuality? Could you swap the genders (of all characters) around and see that something doesnt work because of it?

I mean, its okay to show that a man, or woman are their "culturally-expected-gender", but game devs need to go beyond that. A character usually need to be more than their sex with one or two cliche/stereotype glued to them. But even stereotypes work (look at Duke Nukem). Depends on the game and what the designers aim for.

 

[deleted_by_strongbad]

There is a big argument here about whether or not the male machismo images are "sexualized." I think they are. It isn't selling what their target demographic would like to do sure, but it is selling them on a very specific and stereotypical perception of sexual attributes, of what it is to be masculine, and begins the process of self-sexualization.
I don't see much of a difference between selling a sex symbol to those who are sexually attracted to them and selling a sex archetype to those who would aspire to be them.

If you took any photo out of Cosmo magazine and put it in a videogame, maxim, etc. It'd be sexualization or exploitation of women to those who care about that issue, within its original context it is still considered sexualization by most of those same but in a much more destructive way, that is claimed to lead to various psychological disorders and gender identity conflicts as the reader is being sold on unrealistic expectations of his/her gender actualization.

Now personally, I think we are all animals. We are sexual critters and there are three base emotions with a proven and definable purpose and neurological source: rage, fear, and lust. So I think stressing out about either internal or external forces expecting you to fulfill some archetype is where we go wrong. We sexualize everything (including inanimate objects like cars, computers, etc) because that's the easiest way for our frail reptillian midbrain to wrap its head around something without running from or breaking it.

 

[Callate]

Interesting thought, but something to consider.

What the OP describes as a "sexualized" male character- intimidating voice, muscular physique, et al.- also makes that character threatening, or at least powerful, self-reliant, capable... macho, in other words. A force to be reckoned with. One Who Is Not Going To Take Shit From Anybody.

What we typically describe as "sexualized" in a female character means- as has been pointed out- giving them a physique that's bound to cause back-aches and some of the most wildly inappropriate "armor" or "combat wear" ever designed. It frequently makes any aggressive or competent characteristic they're given into a point of borderline cognitive dissonance. It's often hard to get past the fact that whatever else they may be capable of, they're eye candy- and as frequently as not, either prizes to be won or victims.

Now, I'm a straight guy, and I'll admit that I like looking at an attractive woman as much as the next straight guy. But I do begin to feel a little pandered to, if not outright taken advantage of, when so many female characters are designed like they stepped out of a Fredrick's of Hollywood catalog. And I can't help but find it somewhat misleading at best to suggest that the situation for male characters is somehow equivalent.

But I would also agree that we should be careful not to equate any presentation of a female character as attractive is "sexualizing"- at least to the extent that their sexual appeal is their primary reason for existing. There's a lot of ground between Mai Shiranui and Miranda of ME2.

 

[[.redacted]]

Pretty much the only female character in all media that is portrayed as a person and not a sex object, love interest, manipulative villain, mother figure etc is Liz Lemon from thirty rock.

Seriously she's the only one with as much character depth as a male protagonist might be given. No other female characters are able to stand alone without a 'label.'

See Claymore.

OT: Whether or not both sides are oversexualised, it's actually really sad that the female characters are always given bits of rope to wear and not clothes.

However, the point is this: a male character with ridiculous muscles can still be taken seriously and retain its dignity, I don't see how a female character wearing - as you said - floss, can be, and that's a shame.

 

[Paragon Fury]

I've said this a few times myself, but you could've made your point better by say, mentioning someone like the male Commander Shepard.

Because, lets face it, unless you purposely go out of your way to make Commander Shepard ugly as sin, the man is male sexuality weapon-ized into a WMD. He's cut from marblegranite, knows exactly what to say and when, is as good at being romantic and tender as he is killing everyone and everything in sight, and can pretty much persuade anyone into giving him everything and anything. Even inanimate objects.

They only way he could get any better is if his voice actor was Nathan Fillon; at which point I'm sure Mass Effect would be banned for causing the heads of every woman (and many men) who played it or viewed it to explode.

 

[acosn]

Simple fact of the matter is that sex sells.

There's a reason why Mass Effect features no ugly women that you didn't build yourself. The Asari are all naturally attractive, humans are attractive or just aged, Krogan females are hiding apparently and ... well I won't venture for the other races.

There's no standard saying that men are over sexualized because that's never actually been a selling point, and unfortunately games like Gears of War and God of War are not much of a litmus test because they largely field characters that fit the "Every 80's / 90's action movie you've ever seen" description more than anything else. You don't see men featured in games like DOA Beach Volleyball, or running around in Tribal wear.

 

[Satsuthegreat]

sex sells. The prettier, sexier, better looking characters are going to be favoured over the ugly, weedier ones because that's simply what appeals to people. It's the same in life - better looking people have an easier time than ugly ones because people want to be surrounded with things that are aesthetically pleasing.

 

[Ilyak1986]

IMO video games are meant to be an idealized escape. Not only are females idealized, but so are males. I mean heck, look at the Starcraft universe. Tychus is idealized with that whole MANLY man theme going, Raynor's idealized, being the only nice guy in an entire universe full of bastards aside from maybe all of two protoss who are neither dogmatic nor xenophobic, and one is dead (or at least ascended to a higher plane of existence), and maybe Ariel Hanson, who was more or less a sideshow just so Raynor can show that he's got a nice guy and goes around helping people.

Yeah, video game designers find a way to get women into tight-fitting clothing. What's interesting is that nobody really seems to care that for instance, in the Starcraft universe, both guys AND girls wear form-fitting Ghost outfits (for instance, Gabriel Tosh aka Jamaican Space Troll Ghost dude), but nobody really cries foul over Tosh's being "oversexualized", or that Tychus's country drawl has become a meme for its masculinity. "You are now readin' this in mah voice".

IMO the feminists need to just shut up. But IMO it's more a case with traditional societal roles. Men were always valued for their ability to produce, so the idealized version of a man is someone who looks ripped as all hell, can will himself through any amount of staggering odds, pile up a body count, drop X amount of women into bed, and so forth. Productive. And nobody goes off the deep end for a game portraying men as idealized versions of their traditional selves. But traditionally, women were always the fairer sex, known for their beauty, and whenever they get idealized, people cry foul.

Honestly, cut me a break. There are good looking women in this world, and not all of them are in Hollywood or on a cover of a sports magazine. It's just that some women have issues with themselves. Big deal. They can go /wrists for all I care. Either be comfortable with who you are, or work to change it, but don't whine about someone being portrayed as more idealized than you are.

 

[Ilyak1986]

IMO video games are meant to be an idealized escape. Not only are females idealized, but so are males. I mean heck, look at the Starcraft universe. Tychus is idealized with that whole MANLY man theme going, Raynor's idealized, being the only nice guy in an entire universe full of bastards aside from maybe all of two protoss who are neither dogmatic nor xenophobic, and one is dead (or at least ascended to a higher plane of existence), and maybe Ariel Hanson, who was more or less a sideshow just so Raynor can show that he's got a nice guy and goes around helping people.

Yeah, video game designers find a way to get women into tight-fitting clothing. What's interesting is that nobody really seems to care that for instance, in the Starcraft universe, both guys AND girls wear form-fitting Ghost outfits (for instance, Gabriel Tosh aka Jamaican Space Troll Ghost dude), but nobody really cries foul over Tosh's being "oversexualized", or that Tychus's country drawl has become a meme for its masculinity. "You are now readin' this in mah voice".

IMO the feminists need to just shut up. But IMO it's more a case with traditional societal roles. Men were always valued for their ability to produce, so the idealized version of a man is someone who looks ripped as all hell, can will himself through any amount of staggering odds, pile up a body count, drop X amount of women into bed, and so forth. Productive. And nobody goes off the deep end for a game portraying men as idealized versions of their traditional selves. But traditionally, women were always the fairer sex, known for their beauty, and whenever they get idealized, people cry foul.

Honestly, cut me a break. There are good looking women in this world, and not all of them are in Hollywood or on a cover of a sports magazine. It's just that some women have issues with themselves. Big deal. They can go /wrists for all I care. Either be comfortable with who you are, or work to change it, but don't whine about someone being portrayed as more idealized than you are.

 

[Fleaman]

Solid Snake's Ass.

Indeed. Snake is far more sexualized than either Kratos or any Epic Games character. Also Batman in Arkham Asylum.

Also for talking about sexualized male characters, how has no one brought up Chou Aniki yet?

FFFFFFFFFFFUUUUU CHO ANIKI ARRRRGH

Well, MOST OF THE TIME, Japan sells sex to gamer girls using pretty boys. Sometimes with abs. JRPGs sell well to girls in the West too, but I think our developers here are too self-conscious and insecure to be able to write and design pretty boy characters, since we call all of our pretty boys fags and throw sticks at them.

 

[TehCookie]

is it even possible to "sexualize" a male character?
Dress him in normal cloths: meh
Put him in a loin cloth or something: MANLY!!!!
Put him in bondage or S/M gear: mostly creepy, humorous, or gaaaaaayyyyyyy

but with women? just about everything you do with them makes them sexy. This might be because i am a heterosexual male. And i am not in support of the hyper sexualization of every single female character we see. But it just seems like their is nothing you can do to a male character that has the same impact as it does with female characters.

Spoiler: So is this sexy?

If you thought no, that's how I feel about playing most men in games. It doesn't matter how you dress them up if they're ugly to begin with. There doesn't even need to be fan service I just want a hot guy to be eye candy. Like Leon from RE4, he's hot and isn't sexualized to my knowledge at least.

 

[Dethpixie]

snip

Her name was Chloe, and again I agree.

How about game developers make a full game with the female wearing clothes and make her the best character they can, and then after everybody's done praising her characerization release a patch that puts her in a little bit more than macaroni noodles taped to her bits or (dare I say it) nothing at all, and see how many people all of a sudden call her flat and lifeless?*

Most of these people that make these threads would...

*Such a thing would be uncalled for, though not necessarily hated on my part. My point is that many Escapists are getting in a fit over this every so often and it isn't ever going to do a damn thing. Good storytellers will give us good characters and stories and the rest will hide their characters with boobies. Boobies are great (or whatever you prefer). Good stories are great. What's the big problem? A combination would be nice, though.

Let's put Bioware and Team Ninja in the same room, see what comes up.

I like your style, I'm getting really sick of these threads myself. Everyone seems to have either a very conservative or very juvenile approach to sexuality. Sexuality is a fundamental part of the human experience, why can't we just relax and let it be?

And to your hypothetical: The uproar would be ridiculous if the developer did that, though I imagine it'd be great fun to troll which I seem to have been inadvertently doing all day by commenting in these threads with my hippie sexual liberation message.

I don't even know how a Bioware-Team Ninja game would work but I'm intrigued and oddly aroused.

 

[Trolldor]

I don't think Marcus Fenix was the best comparison you could have made, Kratos was far more effective in bringing about your point.

Kratos in God of War 1 was not 'hyper-macho' like Marcus Fenix.

His hyper machoism was actually a key point of his character that led to his downfall.

 

[littlewisp]

I've only ever considered female characters 'sexualized' when they are being dressed in such a way as to provoke a sexual reaction (unnecessarily sexy outfits, for example), or they are about as generically attractive as possible. It's normal in the video game industry for sexual dimorphism to be taken to the extremes, so not all buxom thin waisted ladies are, imo, necessarily sexualized.

So, to me, there are very few male characters I'd say are sexy. Extremely sexually dimorphised, yes. But, there's only really been one male character I've looked at and said "yummy" to, and that was Dante.

 

[Chemical Alia]

I'm sick of shitty character designs, regardless of gender. That said, I think there's still a lot more variety and visual interest among male characters in games, even among the most idealized ones. Female characters aren't as common in genres like FPSs in particular, so they tend to be more often than not reduced to their lowest common denominator of visual appeal. It's the boring, cookie-cutter template of character design that annoys me, and it applies to both genders.