Spanking

[emeraldrafael]

Snip

You know... you keep saying that, but you never stated what, and when you try, you give us a pdf file that all and all, has no idea what its talking about. So what exactly would you use instead of spanking?

It depends on the age of the child.

On a different note, replacing my posts' content with "snip" makes it very difficult for me to follow your replies. I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't do that.

Well, we need to save space here so things dot get long and overdrawn, but at a certain age, spankings shouldnt be used. BUt a young age, where "kids" equal something less then ten, since ten is around the age of pre teen (at least, I'm going to assume thats what he menas), they need to learn because they dont know yet. So a healthy spank at first, then to say thats the last you'll get is the best. Also, a spanking can be any form of punishment. Physical, psychological, anything.

I do not agree with the assumption that spanking is necessary for children below a certain age. The evidence does not support it.

Evidence doesnt support that non spanking methods work in practice either. I could tell my cousins they're in time out and they laugh. when i go tell them to grab my belt (because i carry one with studs and leather) that sobers them up quick. And I'm sure most anyone here on this site will vouch a similiar story.

Your personal experience does not constitute a quality source within the framework of an argument.

But it does. This is opinion, and personal experience is everything. NO one here really ever quotes psychological studies for their point, because no one cares for them. the fact is, psych studies in themselves are useless, since they so rapidly chnage and never really apply to anything when person experience dictates how they will raise someone.

 

[Koroviev]

Why must punishment be used? Why can't negative reinforcement be employed?

Spanking is not considered to be reinforcement. It is a form of punishment.

Actually, whether spanking is a punishment or reinforcement depends on how often a child beats spanked. Imagine a child gets spanked at 3pm everyday unless the kid brings home a loaf of bread. The child is being negatively reinforced to bring home bread.

Punishment(with reinforcement) needs to be done because a child may bring home straight A's, but still doesn't know not to punch the cat, for example.

Do you have evidence to support that claim? To my knowledge, that is still punishment. Establishing a frequency for a specific action does not necessarily change the nature of that action.

 

[Koroviev]

But it does. This is opinion, and personal experience is everything. NO one here really ever quotes psychological studies for their point, because no one cares for them. the fact is, psych studies in themselves are useless, since they so rapidly chnage and never really apply to anything when person experience dictates how they will raise someone.

It may mean a lot to you in forming an opinion, however, that does not change the fact that it is poor support for an opinion.

That most people here are supposedly not interested in supporting their opinions does not make it good practice. If that is your point, then the argument in favor of it is fallacious.

And you are not the first person to make that claim. It remains unsupported, to my knowledge.

 

[crudus]

Why must punishment be used? Why can't negative reinforcement be employed?

Spanking is not considered to be reinforcement. It is a form of punishment.

Actually, whether spanking is a punishment or reinforcement depends on how often a child beats spanked. Imagine a child gets spanked at 3pm everyday unless the kid brings home a loaf of bread. The child is being negatively reinforced to bring home bread.

Punishment(with reinforcement) needs to be done because a child may bring home straight A's, but still doesn't know not to punch the cat, for example.

Do you have evidence to support that claim? To my knowledge, that is still punishment. Establishing a frequency for a specific action does not necessarily change the nature of that action.

In that above example replace "gets spanked" with "does chores". In both examples something unfavorable is being taken away (hence negative) in the hopes to increase the likely hood a behavior is done (reinforcement).

 

[Koroviev]

Why must punishment be used? Why can't negative reinforcement be employed?

Spanking is not considered to be reinforcement. It is a form of punishment.

Actually, whether spanking is a punishment or reinforcement depends on how often a child beats spanked. Imagine a child gets spanked at 3pm everyday unless the kid brings home a loaf of bread. The child is being negatively reinforced to bring home bread.

Punishment(with reinforcement) needs to be done because a child may bring home straight A's, but still doesn't know not to punch the cat, for example.

Do you have evidence to support that claim? To my knowledge, that is still punishment. Establishing a frequency for a specific action does not necessarily change the nature of that action.

In that above example replace "gets spanked" with "does chores". In both examples something unfavorable is being taken away (hence negative) in the hopes to increase the likely hood a behavior is done (reinforcement).

I understand your reasoning. However, in the absence of evidence, I cannot concede that punishment applied with a certain frequency becomes negative reinforcement.

 

[ComicsAreWeird]

Sometimes spanking is justified if they´re being really bratty.But... If i was a parent, i´d try to punish my kids in other ways.Taking away stuff they like might prove more successful.

 

[TehCookie]

-snip-

You say you should reward the child for good behavior, what if the child is already happy with what they have and doesn't want anything more?

If you were going to punish/discipline the kid how would you do it effectively? For examples sake let's say the kid will ignore anything you say (kids do that).

In the absence of support, "what ifs" don't amount to much of a counterargument.

You said you didn't like the usage of anecdotes but I was referring to myself anonymously as a child.

Alright as I child I was happy with my computer and my ps2, I never felt like I needed anything more than that so any attempt of reward my parents tried to give me I didn't care about I was content with what I had. When they got fed up with my grades dropping they tried grounding me or taking away my computer, needless to say it all failed. I didn't listen and I didn't obey. If they put me in a corner I'd just walk away. To prevent me from using my computer they locked it with a password and took the power cable and turned off the circuit breaker. It wasn't hard for me to turn it back on find a spare cable and guess the password. Also words didn't have any effect on my, good job and bad job were just words (and to really annoy my parents when they started yelling I would just recite the sticks and stones saying). What would you do with a brat like that?

After a month of this my mom bent me over her lap and spanked me. I quickly learned after that I should listen to her if I wanted to avoid any more pain. To me, that was way more effective than anything else they've tried.

You are correct, I am not a fan of anecdotes as evidence.

Where did you get evidence from? I'm asking how to discipline a kid without physical harm. You didn't like the what-if so I gave you an actual scenario, but how would you have handled that? I'm in the minority of your research, and I don't see any other way. So would you at least give your more educated opinion?

 

[pulse2]

I think there are limitations to spanking, I don't think there is any justification is smacking a little child. I think by the time you are five you are old enough to understand right and wrong.

Or at least the basic elements of it.

 

[crudus]

I understand your reasoning. However, in the absence of evidence, I cannot concede that punishment applied with a certain frequency becomes negative reinforcement.

What evidence do you want? I guess you can read up on <a href=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning>operant conditioning if that will help. Negative reinforcement is just taking away something unfavorable to increase the likely hood a behavior is done. I guess the example would work better if the not spanking days couldn't be so frequent. Let's say a kid gets spanked at 3pm except on days he gets a paid extra for mowing his neighbors lawn. Actually, that works better. The kid will work hard so he doesn't get spanked and the varied scheduled of reward is a nice touch too.

 

[SenseOfTumour]

Can't remember where I read it, but someone was saying parent's shouldn't be allowed to raise their voice any more.

Lol

Anyways, let's try it - *whispers* "hey timmy...come back, you shouldn't run into the middle of the road, really, it's naughty"

I think 'GET THE FUCK BACK HERE NOW' could be more effective personally, and an aid to road safety, followed by a swat on the back of the legs or butt.

If they've hurt themselves already, smacking them's not going to add much however. They need your love and caring at that point, whoever's fault it was.

To me, single spanks are fine, as they're meant to link mild pain with dangerous activities.

The main rule for me is it should be controlled, if you're angry and hit your kids because of that, you're doing it wrong.

I've gotta say, my friends are doing very well so far with their toddler, a stern NO seems to stop almost anything, lets hope it works for the next 15 years or so

 

[crudus]

I think there are limitations to spanking, I don't think there is any justification is smacking a little child. I think by the time you are five you are old enough to understand right and wrong.

Actually, right and wrong are somewhat subjective. It may be right for a child to talk to strangers in one culture but frowned upon in the next. If they know right and wrong by then it is because they were taught it. I don't know about you, but I know I didn't have a concept of ownership when I was 5.

 

[DuctTapeJedi]

I don't know, I really can't look at this objectively. Too many bad memories...

 

[emeraldrafael]

But it does. This is opinion, and personal experience is everything. NO one here really ever quotes psychological studies for their point, because no one cares for them. the fact is, psych studies in themselves are useless, since they so rapidly chnage and never really apply to anything when person experience dictates how they will raise someone.

It may mean a lot to you in forming an opinion, however, that does not change the fact that it is poor support for an opinion.

That most people here are supposedly not interested in supporting their opinions does not make it good practice. If that is your point, then the argument in favor of it is fallacious.

And you are not the first person to make that claim. It remains unsupported, to my knowledge.

You know, you keep running circles and chasing your own tail about this. You keep saying research doesnt support my answer. well thats graet, but yhave you ever seen research? Research is controlled. Variables dont affect it. Control groups are kept away from each other. In the REAL world, where most of live, instead of out of college psychology books, things like that are never so perfect. Groups mix. Kids who are spanked interact with kids that arent, and when they hear that they arent being spanked, they think, "Gee, they took away my toy but so what. they're not hitting me. whats a toy to me, i have more, or i can wait." When the kid knows that they will burt hit, that they will Feel, the discipline, they wont chance it.

 

[Koroviev]

Where did you get evidence from? I'm asking how to discipline a kid without physical harm. You didn't like the what-if so I gave you an actual scenario, but how would you have handled that? I'm in the minority of your research, and I don't see any other way. So would you at least give your more educated opinion?

I'm not a certified expert myself, so for this I will rely on a credible source.

[spoiler = "General Ideas"]"Suggestions for All Ages
1. Support good behavior. Hugs and praise will go a long
way (Ruben, 1996).
2. Try an ounce of prevention (Ruben, 1996). Effective
discipline means announcing clear, simple family rules
(the fewer, the better) at a time when children are calm
and listening.
3. Try to understand the feelings behind your child's
actions (Ruben, 1996). Ask older children why they are
angry. When an infant cries, ask yourself: Does she
want to be held? Is her diaper wet? Is she hungry?
4. Share your change of heart (Ruben, 1996). If you have
spanked your children in the past, but have decided that
you will stop, talk to your children about your decision.
This lesson can be valuable for your whole family. "[/spoiler]

If you would like age-specific answers, then I'm going to direct you to the source. [http://ceep.crc.illinois.edu/eecearchive/digests/1997/ramsbu97.pdf]

 

[Koroviev]

But it does. This is opinion, and personal experience is everything. NO one here really ever quotes psychological studies for their point, because no one cares for them. the fact is, psych studies in themselves are useless, since they so rapidly chnage and never really apply to anything when person experience dictates how they will raise someone.

It may mean a lot to you in forming an opinion, however, that does not change the fact that it is poor support for an opinion.

That most people here are supposedly not interested in supporting their opinions does not make it good practice. If that is your point, then the argument in favor of it is fallacious.

And you are not the first person to make that claim. It remains unsupported, to my knowledge.

You know, you keep running circles and chasing your own tail about this. You keep saying research doesnt support my answer. well thats graet, but yhave you ever seen research? Research is controlled. Variables dont affect it. Control groups are kept away from each other. In the REAL world, where most of live, instead of out of college psychology books, things like that are never so perfect. Groups mix. Kids who are spanked interact with kids that arent, and when they hear that they arent being spanked, they think, "Gee, they took away my toy but so what. they're not hitting me. whats a toy to me, i have more, or i can wait." When the kid knows that they will burt hit, that they will Feel, the discipline, they wont chance it.

Time out for a second. When did I say that "research" doesn't support your point?

 

[Koroviev]

I understand your reasoning. However, in the absence of evidence, I cannot concede that punishment applied with a certain frequency becomes negative reinforcement.

What evidence do you want? I guess you can read up on <a href=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning>operant conditioning if that will help. Negative reinforcement is just taking away something unfavorable to increase the likely hood a behavior is done. I guess the example would work better if the not spanking days couldn't be so frequent. Let's say a kid gets spanked at 3pm except on days he gets a paid extra for mowing his neighbors lawn. Actually, that works better. The kid will work hard so he doesn't get spanked and the varied scheduled of reward is a nice touch too.

Well, there's reasoning, and then there's evidence. I think your reasoning is strong. Nevertheless, as strong as your reasoning is, I feel that I need evidence to ascertain your assertion. It is by all means reasonable, but that does not necessarily mean it is supported.

I've read about operant conditioning, which is why I am hesitant to classify punishment as something other than punishment.

 

[emeraldrafael]

Snip

you've said it every person that disagrees, only you called it "evidence" whihc is from your original source of research done on the subject.

 

[pulse2]

I think there are limitations to spanking, I don't think there is any justification is smacking a little child. I think by the time you are five you are old enough to understand right and wrong.

Actually, right and wrong are somewhat subjective. It may be right for a child to talk to strangers in one culture but frowned upon in the next. If they know right and wrong by then it is because they were taught it. I don't know about you, but I know I didn't have a concept of ownership when I was 5.

I don't mean that sort of right and wrong, the basic things, 'don't touch' being one, 'don't spit' being another and you can sort of get the idea from there.

If your child doesnt know whats right and wrong at that age, its probably the best time to start teaching them. Especially if they bite, scream and throw a temper tantrum like I did. I was a terror from 3 up to at least 13, from that point I suddenly started behaving myself.