Star Wars: TOR Designer Explains BioWare's Death Stance
- Thread starter Tom Goldman
- Start date
Recommended Videos
I try my best not to be glib or snarky (as it's not conducive to discussion), so I've avoided saying it, but that's something I've noticed as well. Whenever the issue of MMO content being made more difficult comes up (in WoW for instance, since that's where most of my experience lays) the main and most adamant supporters of making things more challenging are always those gamers who don't take part in end-game content and don't have the skill to take part without being pulled along anyhow. People, for example, who couldn't do minimum heroic DPS in a Wrath of the Lich King heroic just before Cataclysm launched despite being in excellent gear far outstripping the content, or tanks or healers who didn't grasp basic concepts of their roles are raving about how spectacular it is that now content is being made "more challenging".DracoSuave said:
I wish I could say they were isolated incidents, but like you they seem to be the general rule from my experience.
Also, the rest of your comments express my own thoughts better than I could've said.
Being a masochist is fine and all, but in regards to a game that should be the rare exception, not the general rule. Games should not punish its players, aside from the occasional niche title for "hardcore" fans perhaps. The very notion of punishing your customers for buying and using your product still baffles me.
Sorry guys, in this day and age NO ONE will make a Star Wars MMO with a harsh death penalty. The truth of the matter is that that kind of game play just isn't fun for the wide majority of people, and if a developer has put out the cash to license the SW universe you can bet they aren't going to make any design decision that will severely limit their potential player base.
Now, I'm not saying that harsh penalties don't have a place in MMOs, just don't expect them outside of small niche games.
Now, I'm not saying that harsh penalties don't have a place in MMOs, just don't expect them outside of small niche games.
Just OOC, would you be for lower death penalties for "casual" content (IE leveling and such) if "hardcore" content like endgame had really high death penalties? That's really the only way I could see harsh death penalties being implemented into a mainstream MMO like TOR.The_root_of_all_evil said:
Heh, well EvE kinda is already like that. What to Own 0.0 lawless space? only if you have the right guys behind you. A fleet commander or CEO is only as good as the men and women he leads, Each person can have their own skills and talents, but when it comes to the line, following orders and having good knowlege of how to fly is the only way to stay alive and succeed.sleeky01 said:You know, in reading various forums I see variations of this statement come up a fair bit when the topic of death penalty's come up. The response whether it's to one player or his friends/guild/whatever always comes down to three words: Learn To PlayRuairi iliffe said:
Just once I would like to see an MMO developer use instead of a personal death penalty but a FACTION death penalty. Basically faction XP used to open up content. "I'm sorry but you are unable to enter the Cave of Ultimate Doom because too many of your fellow faction players die too many times."
Oh I know it's a pipe dream. But boy I would have endless hours of drama entertainment.
Thats why me and 30 well trained guys can take on 200+ and get out alive. you are only as strong as the man beside you.
Its also the Reason to me, death in an compeditive MMO should be harsh, Experance is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards, as the old saying goes.
Hello old school ac playerKanatatsu said:
i was on frostfell. ANd yes the AC system was the perfect system, imo, since one death was meh and if you were smart and cautions got your body back and by killing a few things you lost any penalty. Now if you got unlocky or just to careless that penalty would grow and grow, and make your job much harder. But item drop was easlily covered when you could tinker items with gold to raise their value and thoriums armor (sp) i think it was that you could get for one quest that was like 0 weight and 100k value i had a pack of death items, thos plus orbs and wands tinkered to 60 to 100k value, that could easily cover several deaths if i was having a bad night.
AC rewarded smart post death play. Since there was no cop out to get you body back you actually had to go get it or lose all your stuff you dropped.
AC best mmo i ever played to this day yet
.
You've not been up against the Malta or Hami?DracoSuave said:
Which is why if you try that on the Manaetic Behemoth, you'll party wipe. Or Bertie. Seriously, pop your pets on Bertie and I'll be giggling from a Plane away.
I started as a Erudite Necromancer and ran to the East Commonlands Pre-PoK. That's 3 zones where everything is KOS (mostly level 50s).
One of the reasons I didn't buy WoW. But it's a daft argument anyway. No-one buys/unsubscribes games because of the death penalty. You do that because you're bored and you want an excuse.
Hell Levels? I played a Cleric...you have NO idea. EQ also had many many MANY good game mechanisms that other games ignored at their peril. Had Vanguard stayed on and not let SOE cyborg it up, then it still would....oh yes...it still IS being played today.
Sorry, that's bulldrek. I've seen people throw deaths at monsters, and port back in time for their corpse to be brought back. Hell, our raids used to start leaping down the Paineel Bottomless Pit.
Patently ridicuolous. A good game makes the GAME meaningful, that's both sides. A bad game just makes it so there's instadeaths you can't avoid. That's an entirely different argument.
Like ... oh... No...I can't think of any MMO that doesn't have death penalties.
That makes no sense whatsoever.
What the hell is restarting the level if not a death penalty?
Did you ever play a game that had lives in it? Seriously, your points make no sense and are demolished by the industry of today. Have you ever played a MUD? Why do you think there are Ironman game modes? Why do you think that so many people loved Star Wars Galaxies Pre-NGE and hated it afterwards.
Simply stating your opinion on the way things should be doesn't make you right if you can't even back your own argument by evidence.
AFAIK ALL MMOs have a death penalty of sorts, removing it would be removing one of the main balances on play, as Slycne says on page 1. If you really really want a game where you just respawn after death, then sure, go ahead, knock yourself out.
I (and a number of other posters here) would like a game that treats death as a fear rather than a career obstacle.
Tough choice. See, I don't think casual exists. If you're playing a game casually then you're not gonna really want end of game content. And it makes the change across much harder.
I'd rather have specific levels for raids where there's light - Good Xp, Less Penalty, Less Drops and heavy - Great Xp, Big Penalty, More Drops - but that's chooseable as you go in.
It is a strange thing the death penalty in a MMORPG. Seriously think about it, those boys and girls at Bioware have a big problem ahead of them. They have to think of a fitting penalty with going overboard as well as trying the best they can not to copy WoW. At the same time though I feel people might be over complicating things. Just to spitball an Idea out there, why doesn't you character just wake up at the nearest town in like a med bay and as a result they have to pay a small medical fee? As the player progresses the medical fee increases as well.
The problem with the whole death penalty debate is that each side is really arguing about something different. Each side says that their idea makes the game better, but each side has a different definition of "game." For the people who fondly remember the games where you played as far as you could before being obliterated and then tried again from the top and now support harsh death penalties, a game is a challenge. It is something you will fail at and fail at until you finally succeed through perseverance, and that sense of victory is what they are after. People who like the fact that games are now sophisticated enough to save and who want lenient death penalties see games as experiences. They're very interactive and complicated toys and they should entertain, not frustrate. Challenge is fine as long as it doesn't cause you to have to redo an hour's worth of gameplay, because that's already been experienced.
The first breed is dying off though, as many gamers and cutting their teeth on very forgiving games. The second definition of game is becoming the dominant one, so it is an unfortunate (for them at least) inconvenience for the first group that they have to hunt down games as they know them, because they're never going to get modern games back to being challenge focused.
The first breed is dying off though, as many gamers and cutting their teeth on very forgiving games. The second definition of game is becoming the dominant one, so it is an unfortunate (for them at least) inconvenience for the first group that they have to hunt down games as they know them, because they're never going to get modern games back to being challenge focused.
Wait, we need to 'star wars' the corpse run? Are you kidding me? That's not going to take a lot of effort to figure out, let me tell you:
You BLEW UP the death star? My corpse was on there! Now how am I meant to get to it?!
No, but seriously - I don't mind The warcraft system. Die too often and your armour breaks, and every time you die you end up running back to your corpse. It's irritating and occasionally costs you money, but that's it. But this is the thing, it works because that's what Warcraft is about. It's about getting into th game as quickly as possible and doing stuff and not stopping and so a substantial death penalty doesn't work. A game like Eve has a really harsh penalty and it works because Eve is ruthless. Having to balance equipping yourself conservatively so you're not risking much, vs equipping yourself lavishly to increase survivability is an important part of the game, so its heavy death penalty makes sense. The only death penalty I don't dig any implementation of is GW1's morale debuff, where you can only 'recover morale' by downing named enemies. If you're finding it tough to progress through an instance, debuffing your characters on death is just profoundly silly. GW2's sounds interesting though, giving each class a way to contribute once downed that actually makes sense. So... to sum up? As long as they don't do anything silly, as long as the death system makes sense in the game it occupies, this shouldn't be too tough a challenge for bioware to solve.
You BLEW UP the death star? My corpse was on there! Now how am I meant to get to it?!
No, but seriously - I don't mind The warcraft system. Die too often and your armour breaks, and every time you die you end up running back to your corpse. It's irritating and occasionally costs you money, but that's it. But this is the thing, it works because that's what Warcraft is about. It's about getting into th game as quickly as possible and doing stuff and not stopping and so a substantial death penalty doesn't work. A game like Eve has a really harsh penalty and it works because Eve is ruthless. Having to balance equipping yourself conservatively so you're not risking much, vs equipping yourself lavishly to increase survivability is an important part of the game, so its heavy death penalty makes sense. The only death penalty I don't dig any implementation of is GW1's morale debuff, where you can only 'recover morale' by downing named enemies. If you're finding it tough to progress through an instance, debuffing your characters on death is just profoundly silly. GW2's sounds interesting though, giving each class a way to contribute once downed that actually makes sense. So... to sum up? As long as they don't do anything silly, as long as the death system makes sense in the game it occupies, this shouldn't be too tough a challenge for bioware to solve.
There's been a lot of great points, and a whole lot of bigotry all over this comment thread. Here's my two cents: There's two options, hardcore and beginner. Hardcore is level 1-max you have the death penalty. Beginner is level 1-half of max is no sixth and up death penalty, but once you reach half the level cap (let's say it's 60, so when you reach 30) the death penalty is implemented. The death penalty is as such,
?First death: No biggie! Just a 1 percent exp up. If you need 500, now you need 505.
?Second death: (This is all on a 24 hour period) move the decimal over to the right, if you needed 500, now you need 550.
?Third and fourth death follow a pattern of multiplying by two. If you need 500 exp, you'd then need 600 due to the 20 percent increase, and then the 40 percent increase would yield 840 total exp needed.
?Fifth death: add another 40%, and you receive a warning that you're on your fifth death.
?Sixth death and up: You receive 50%, and you get 1% added to every following level, this punishment will not go away. If you needed 500 exp in the next level, you'd need 505, even if you haven't died the entire last level.
You may either wait the 24 hours so you don't have a massive stacking process going on, or you can answer a rather hard riddle provided by the elder Rakata in the Mysterious Box. If you don't know who that is, stop reading about TOR and buy Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic immediately. Also, since the Rakata only has the generic...Rakatan voice, there's a VAST amount of riddles to be solved, that way there's no bullshit. If you get the riddle wrong, you lose a random item you own that isn't equipped on you.
This is just what I think. It has it's flaws, sure, but I honestly don't care, I like it.
?First death: No biggie! Just a 1 percent exp up. If you need 500, now you need 505.
?Second death: (This is all on a 24 hour period) move the decimal over to the right, if you needed 500, now you need 550.
?Third and fourth death follow a pattern of multiplying by two. If you need 500 exp, you'd then need 600 due to the 20 percent increase, and then the 40 percent increase would yield 840 total exp needed.
?Fifth death: add another 40%, and you receive a warning that you're on your fifth death.
?Sixth death and up: You receive 50%, and you get 1% added to every following level, this punishment will not go away. If you needed 500 exp in the next level, you'd need 505, even if you haven't died the entire last level.
You may either wait the 24 hours so you don't have a massive stacking process going on, or you can answer a rather hard riddle provided by the elder Rakata in the Mysterious Box. If you don't know who that is, stop reading about TOR and buy Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic immediately. Also, since the Rakata only has the generic...Rakatan voice, there's a VAST amount of riddles to be solved, that way there's no bullshit. If you get the riddle wrong, you lose a random item you own that isn't equipped on you.
This is just what I think. It has it's flaws, sure, but I honestly don't care, I like it.
-sigh-
sounds like you die, lose some xp, maybe some items, and then appear at the nearest cloning facility.
ANd basically, PVP will be worthless because no one drops the good loot for a kill on a player, who usually are more dangerous then non-boss NPCs of the equivelent level.
Edit: No, and I am tired of the 'Peeps who want death penalties obviously just want to fuck people over, then ***** when they die.' I played eve, enjoyed the game parts of it on my three month trial. I killed lots of stuff, had a lot of my expensive special sabot rounds I bought sold on the market by the victors of battles I lost, and had to start over quite a bit. When I (finally) killed someone, I stole as much as I could, and dinged their escape pod in the measure.
Eve is a perfect example of a stiff death penalty. People weigh loss over reward. I knew people who would not go into low-sec with their ships for fear of being podded and losing all their stuff, even if they could buy twelve dozen boxes of the exact same 'stuff' they'd lose if they took one chance. I myself, being a risk taker, ended up with enough money to buy cool stuff, but not experienced enough to use it. I was missing both the guitar, the cape, and a cool fedora requirements. I went out and PKed more with a noobie-type ship then most of my friends did in battleships that could obliterate my ship with one single shot. If I had kept playing, I most likely would have lost a lot more material, and had to keep going out. Some days I lost more then I won, other days I won more then I lost.
sounds like you die, lose some xp, maybe some items, and then appear at the nearest cloning facility.
ANd basically, PVP will be worthless because no one drops the good loot for a kill on a player, who usually are more dangerous then non-boss NPCs of the equivelent level.
Edit: No, and I am tired of the 'Peeps who want death penalties obviously just want to fuck people over, then ***** when they die.' I played eve, enjoyed the game parts of it on my three month trial. I killed lots of stuff, had a lot of my expensive special sabot rounds I bought sold on the market by the victors of battles I lost, and had to start over quite a bit. When I (finally) killed someone, I stole as much as I could, and dinged their escape pod in the measure.
Eve is a perfect example of a stiff death penalty. People weigh loss over reward. I knew people who would not go into low-sec with their ships for fear of being podded and losing all their stuff, even if they could buy twelve dozen boxes of the exact same 'stuff' they'd lose if they took one chance. I myself, being a risk taker, ended up with enough money to buy cool stuff, but not experienced enough to use it. I was missing both the guitar, the cape, and a cool fedora requirements. I went out and PKed more with a noobie-type ship then most of my friends did in battleships that could obliterate my ship with one single shot. If I had kept playing, I most likely would have lost a lot more material, and had to keep going out. Some days I lost more then I won, other days I won more then I lost.
HankMan said:
Perhaps give you an achievement? Or a title "clumsy around Sarlac pits" grafted on to the character's name.
Perma-death in an MMO is like having your house burn down in Minecraft, and no one likes that. If all your hard work is just going to go to waste after one mistake, then you're just as likely to drop the game in favor of something not necessarily easier, but definitely less harsh.
Because Bioware has to compete with Blizzard, they're going to need all the help they can get - and putting players off with harsh death penalties was never something that they were going to do.
Because Bioware has to compete with Blizzard, they're going to need all the help they can get - and putting players off with harsh death penalties was never something that they were going to do.
Actually according to both hands-on people and certain naughty leaking beta-testers, they currently have a bindstone system in place (upon dying you wake up at the kolto tank of your choosing then have to run back to where you were or you can instead decide to say 'screw it - it's too hard, let's do something else) along with a 10% durability penalty, which is much like WoW. So it's WoW penalties only without the ghost run. And tbh thank freaking god - that shit was annoying to NO END in WPvP, though I can't speak for Cata now that everyone and their mother gets to swoop around with birds.
Otherwise...keep the misinformed speculation, hate and fanboy trains going please. Amusing to watch to no end.
Otherwise...keep the misinformed speculation, hate and fanboy trains going please. Amusing to watch to no end.