steam hate, why?

[Gameguy20100]

I have gone on and on about why I don't like it so I will avoid repeating myself.

Just watch this it explains it greatly and I'm to lazy to type more.

 

[bug_of_war]

Did you ever actually work out why the games weren't working? Because with Vampire, the only time a mod is required to play that I could find, was relating to Win7. And since Win7 isnt listed as a compatible OS, then you wouldn't get a refund, so im assuming its not that.

The point is I ask if you found out what the issue is, because if you never found out why the games didnt work, I would of said you weren't entitled to a refund.

Welp, I never asked for a refund for Vampire, and if that's the case than okay sure, I don't deserve a refund. Alls I'm saying is that broken games do get sold on Steam and it's very consumer unfriendly to not offer refunds. And as much shit Origin and EA get they totally beat Steam and Valve in that aspect.

So yeah I reiterate, I don't hate Steam or Valve, I just don't think they're the best thing to come to PC.


(Can't wait till next month when a "Why do people hate/love Steam" thread is made...again)

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

There is a Steam hate thread on NeoGaf too right now. Awesome! Never really thought the Steam love affair was healthy for gaming.

Steam is ugly and it's slow. Maybe my memory is flawed but it used to start up silently but now we get a "checking for updates" every time.

The store is full of shovelware and the daily deals are only good if you like that shovelware, mostly indie shit. You know what, I didn't buy a nice video card to play 8 bit platformers, I have an NES for that. Anyway, I stopped letting it boot with Windows since I no longer check the shop every day at noon. I only boot it up when I want to play a game on Steam.

Did I mention how ugly the UI is? I get it, dark is edgy and all that but I'll take lighter colors anyday.

you can download different skins for steam

http://skinyoursteam.com/

i didnt know games like legend of grimrock, torchlight II, mark of the ninja, FTL and antichamber were 8 bit, honestly AAA games, more than anything are they ones that are shovelware nowadays

 

[Vivi22]

You can literally turn that off in the settings and using small mode prevents you from ever having to see the store page at all. There are plenty of legitimate reasons to complain about Steam, but at least look through the options before you do. That readily solves a number of problems people have with it.

This is the one that often baffles me.

While I freely admit no accuracy to this statistic, I'd wager 75% of the complaints I hear most often in regards to Steam can be solved by simply getting the person to; what is often the first time; click on the Settings menu in the client window.

I mean....for fucks sake, people. At least check a programs settings before you lose your shit about it doing something you don't like.

Yeah, it's a bit weird to me that people complain about things that are optional. If I don't like something a program is doing, my first stop is the menus. If no solution jumps out at me there, my next stop is a google search. It's not often I'd jump straight to bitching about something before trying to see if I can change it. It'd be like complaining that a game inverts the X and Y axis on the camera controls without checking the control options to see if you can change it.

 

[Lotet]

God, these people, saying haters gonna hate and other such distanced troll logic

Why do I hate Steam? Because Elder Scrolls used to only need the disk. Because Shogun Total War had to download the entire game after I already installed it. None of their dumb advice helps so I couldn't play till the next afternoon and I don't have infinite internet. Because Dawn of War 2 didn't work after I installed it repeatedly, physically, then I downloaded the entire thing but it still didn't work, so I uninstalled steam completely, reinstalled it and reinstalled Dawn of War 2, THEN it worked. What the hell was wrong with it?? But since I needed the obligatory patch, I couldn't play till the next day. Oh, I also had to wait for the patch to download EVERY TIME I installed it to check if I could play, it took 3 days to play a game!

Steam won't let me install Rome II: Total War physically, guess the estimated download time... 4 Days, 7 Hours.

You gonna tell me it's not Steam's fault? That no game dev is forced to use it? I'm sorry, it's hard to understand that when Steam is the only difference between 'games then' and 'games now' and so far, it's only gotten in my way.

 

[Tarfeather]

gog.com offers a better service than steam(mainly by not having to rely on them at all once the game is downloaded). DRM can die in a fire. 'nuff said.

 

[KungFuJazzHands]

also id like to inform you steam no longer locks your games away if you get banned, as far as i know

If you're referring to VAC bans, you're spot on. Account bans still lock you out of your entire account, and as far as I'm aware EULA/ToS bans still do that too.

thats was changed... 2 years ago

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Valve-Allows-Banned-Players-Games,15447.html

Thanks for the link, but neither of the sites you pointed me to (not sure why you replaced the cinemablend article with the tom's one, they both essentially say the same thing) have specifics on what kind of bans Valve made the changes for. Does that new(ish) policy cover all bans, or are there specific instances where it wouldn't apply? Since Valve apparently don't consider EULA/ToS bans to be bans, but "suspensions", does the policy change covered by those articles apply to accounts that have been affected by EULA/ToS denial on the part of the customer? I'm pretty sure it doesn't -- you literally can't access your account until you click on "I Agree" in the EULA pop-up window.

I should also mention that the latest EULA was made public in July of 2012. The policy change regarding bans was made effective months before that, and when the July EULA came out Valve reps were very vocal in making customers aware that denying the EULA does indeed lock you out of your account. My original point about EULA/ToS locks still stands.

Anyway, I should have been more specific when I brought the topic up. I've been conflating the terms "account ban" and "account lock", so there has been some confusion because of that.

 

[Eliam_Dar]

I have been using steam for quite some time now, but I believe that there are a few things that should be improved.

1) quality games: indie games entering the platform are rather inconsistent in quality.
2) better genre classification: the "tags" feature is not working properly, or at least in my case.
3) DLC releases: for some games (I am looking at you rocksmith) it is not easy to find the latest DLC available.
4) Some multiplayer games do not work properly (dungeonland to name one).

 

[PoolCleaningRobot]

Nah dude, I understand perfectly what DRM means. You said it yourself. Digital Rights Managment.

DRM used to be a key code and a license agreement stating that you, the end user had purchased the right to install and use a piece of software on a single machine. If you installed it too many times your code would no longer work. Along came CD Key gens and No CD patches.

It's been a war ever since to the point that publishers started using more and more draconian DRM till you get to that awesome pile of shit that it sim city. A single player game that is always online but doesn't work like it should and has features stripped out so that the DRM can stay.

You get no arguments from me on that aspect of DRM

But there is more than one side to anything. Steam is still a mechanism for DRM but it is DRM that puts some weight towards the consumers rights as well. Steam says this person bought this product, they have the right to use it on any machine they see fit as long as they are only using one copy at a time. That is reasonable to me. I can go to a friends house, log into my Steam account and download any game onto said friends computer and we can play as long as we like until I go home and log back in on my machine. He no longer has access to my game. I dont see this as any different to the days of taking a game cartridge around to a friends place to play for the day and then taking it back home with me when we were done.

You say DRM is never for the consumer but the above scenario proves that statement false. That is me doing as I please with whoever I please with software that I have paid for. I don't believe that buying a piece of software gives me the right to make endless copies of it to distribute at will. But I do believe that I have the right to share content I have paid for with family and friends. Steam fulfills that need and thus creates a reasonable middle ground where the rights of both devs/publishers and consumers can be catered to.

GoG goes all the way in the consumers favour. It is still a form af DRM but it's DRM that is a polar opposite of the shit that pubs like EA and formerly Ubi ( I wont say Ubi is the shining light but they have eased up somewhat of late) would to ram into every one of our holes they can find. Once you have bought it you can do with it as you please and they wont stop you. If you somehow manage to lose it you can log back in to their DRM service and download it again, no charge, giving YOU complete control in the Management of your Digital Rights. How is that NOT DRM for the consumer?

DRM is generally seen as a dirty word/kick in the nuts because thats the way publishers have used it and generally the way it is always reported on. It doesn't need to be. DRM can benefit both sides of the equation. Steam does that fairly well I think

I get ya there and I understand Steam isn't that bad, but I still don't understand what you think GoG's drm is. Is it their storefront? The fact that you have to pay for games to get them? That's not drm. GoG is a distribution service, of course you can't play their games until you paid for them. There's no rule that says drm-free means you got all your games for free. And at the end of the day, all your Steam games are still owned by Valve. They're just easy to get to

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

also id like to inform you steam no longer locks your games away if you get banned, as far as i know

If you're referring to VAC bans, you're spot on. Account bans still lock you out of your entire account, and as far as I'm aware EULA/ToS bans still do that too.

thats was changed... 2 years ago

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Valve-Allows-Banned-Players-Games,15447.html

Thanks for the link, but neither of the sites you pointed me to (not sure why you replaced the cinemablend article with the tom's one, they both essentially say the same thing) have specifics on what kind of bans Valve made the changes for. Does that new(ish) policy cover all bans, or are there specific instances where it wouldn't apply? Since Valve apparently don't consider EULA/ToS bans to be bans, but "suspensions", does the policy change covered by those articles apply to accounts that have been affected by EULA/ToS denial on the part of the customer? I'm pretty sure it doesn't -- you literally can't access your account until you click on "I Agree" in the EULA pop-up window.

I should also mention that the latest EULA was made public in July of 2012. The policy change regarding bans was made effective months before that, and when the July EULA came out Valve reps were very vocal in making customers aware that denying the EULA does indeed lock you out of your account. My original point about EULA/ToS locks still stands.

Anyway, I should have been more specific when I brought the topic up. I've been conflating the terms "account ban" and "account lock", so there has been some confusion because of that.

the first link was more complete, but it had an addendum, blender contacted steam about the bans but they said banned accounts still didnt have access to their games, however it wasnt clear if they meant old banned accounts or accounts locked with the new system, apparently they were waiting confirmation but well its been 2 years, i prefered to not use that link because i thought that last part might distract the conversation, i did look around to make sure the information about account banning was accurate and i found no evidence locked accounts get locked out of their games

as far as i know, valve only locks acconts now instead of banning em

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

God, these people, saying haters gonna hate and other such distanced troll logic

Why do I hate Steam? Because Elder Scrolls used to only need the disk. Because Shogun Total War had to download the entire game after I already installed it. None of their dumb advice helps so I couldn't play till the next afternoon and I don't have infinite internet. Because Dawn of War 2 didn't work after I installed it repeatedly, physically, then I downloaded the entire thing but it still didn't work, so I uninstalled steam completely, reinstalled it and reinstalled Dawn of War 2, THEN it worked. What the hell was wrong with it?? But since I needed the obligatory patch, I couldn't play till the next day. Oh, I also had to wait for the patch to download EVERY TIME I installed it to check if I could play, it took 3 days to play a game!

Steam won't let me install Rome II: Total War physically, guess the estimated download time... 4 Days, 7 Hours.

You gonna tell me it's not Steam's fault? That no game dev is forced to use it? I'm sorry, it's hard to understand that when Steam is the only difference between 'games then' and 'games now' and so far, it's only gotten in my way.

not saying steam didnt have anthing to do with that, but maybe you should get a better internet service if possible

do you always have problems with steam or just with these games?

 

[DrunkOnEstus]

Back in the day, I fucking hated that I had to install it at all when I had my boxed copy of HL2 way back when, and didn't understand what in the world it was really needed for, why Valve felt the need to install an entire software so that I could play their game. And then games like New Vegas required it even when you bought the box (I used to love collecting box copies of games, so I got my PC games that way).

So I switched to consoles for a little while. I got used to hunting achievements/trophies, got more comfortable with downloading digital versions and not having a box/manual, and shit was grand.

When I upgraded my PC, I wanted to catch up on some games I missed, and play the prettier/smoother versions of the console games I had played. I pretty much game to terms with the fact that I would have to deal with Steam in order to do this (for the most part), and for a long time it wasn't at all bad. For example:

Online play and matchmaking without having to pay a yearly fee, the achievements I had gotten used to, the ridiculous pricing on the sales, and offline mode never once not working for me. Though I did realize that without genuine competition, they could get complacent and terrible if they wanted to.

Right now, I too am completely tired of the 15 year old games, the shovelware games, and the old games that GOG has without any of the optimization/QA that service offers being on the new release list and shoving genuinely new and good games off.

I didn't like the card idea at first and it didn't make sense to me, but I've made quite a bit of money off of it and used card money to buy games lots of times.

The UI could definitely use an overhaul, Greenlight is essentially broken, and the Early Access program is being frequently (ab)used to the detriment of the consumer in most cases.

Right now, EA offers refunds on games through their store, while a refund from Steam is like a mime giving a public speech.

I see things getting worse, and I see the signs of a company who might feel that they can get away with a lot of bullshit due to so many consumers saying "if it's not on Steam, I don't want it". Right now it's the gateway to 330+ games that I "own", and I don't like that I have to trust the agreement that what I really have are licenses to play those games for the time being. I could spend $60 on a PS3 copy, and hold the disc and never have the publisher or Best Buy take it back from me, but it's not PC. Right now I'm willing to trade off, and be vocal about what I don't like in order to have HQ textures, AA, AF, SSAO, and true 1080p/60. I can understand why some people would look at Steam with suspicion and not deal with it, but that's different from haters. There'll always be haters, they'll hate, and most of the time it's cool to hate the popular thing that most people use.

Right now, I love PC gaming and it's working for me. I just have to remember to not get complacent either, and complain/blog/make Youtube videos to light a fire under Valve's ass when they step out of line.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

Back in the day, I fucking hated that I had to install it at all when I had my boxed copy of HL2 way back when, and didn't understand what in the world it was really needed for, why Valve felt the need to install an entire software so that I could play their game. And then games like New Vegas required it even when you bought the box (I used to love collecting box copies of games, so I got my PC games that way).

So I switched to consoles for a little while. I got used to hunting achievements/trophies, got more comfortable with downloading digital versions and not having a box/manual, and shit was grand.

When I upgraded my PC, I wanted to catch up on some games I missed, and play the prettier/smoother versions of the console games I had played. I pretty much game to terms with the fact that I would have to deal with Steam in order to do this (for the most part), and for a long time it wasn't at all bad. For example:

Online play and matchmaking without having to pay a yearly fee, the achievements I had gotten used to, the ridiculous pricing on the sales, and offline mode never once not working for me. Though I did realize that without genuine competition, they could get complacent and terrible if they wanted to.

Right now, I too am completely tired of the 15 year old games, the shovelware games, and the old games that GOG has without any of the optimization/QA that service offers being on the new release list and shoving genuinely new and good games off.

I didn't like the card idea at first and it didn't make sense to me, but I've made quite a bit of money off of it and used card money to buy games lots of times.

The UI could definitely use an overhaul, Greenlight is essentially broken, and the Early Access program is being frequently (ab)used to the detriment of the consumer in most cases.

Right now, EA offers refunds on games through their store, while a refund from Steam is like a mime giving a public speech.

I see things getting worse, and I see the signs of a company who might feel that they can get away with a lot of bullshit due to so many consumers saying "if it's not on Steam, I don't want it". Right now it's the gateway to 330+ games that I "own", and I don't like that I have to trust the agreement that what I really have are licenses to play those games for the time being. I could spend $60 on a PS3 copy, and hold the disc and never have the publisher or Best Buy take it back from me, but it's not PC. Right now I'm willing to trade off, and be vocal about what I don't like in order to have HQ textures, AA, AF, SSAO, and true 1080p/60. I can understand why some people would look at Steam with suspicion and not deal with it, but that's different from haters. There'll always be haters, they'll hate, and most of the time it's cool to hate the popular thing that most people use.

Right now, I love PC gaming and it's working for me. I just have to remember to not get complacent either, and complain/blog/make Youtube videos to light a fire under Valve's ass when they step out of line.

i dont see valve getting worse honestly


i seriously think people exaggerate the problems of early access, its still just an option and ideally regardless of you opting in or out it should improve the quality of the final product, plus thanks to early access, games such as insurgency could be funded (which enjoyed a reasonable critical and comercial success) plus also thanks to Early Access games like kerbal space program, dayz and rust managed to attract a huge following and increase their scope as a result, early access made these games better for everyone

also EA ONLY OFFERS REFUND FOR THEIR GAMES, if you buy a game thats not from EA on origin you cant get a refund, not to say what EA is doing isnt atleast one step in the right direction, but people over compliment their refunds, personally i think GoG.com is better in the refund area

 

[Abulurd_H]

Snip

I get ya there and I understand Steam isn't that bad, but I still don't understand what you think GoG's drm is. Is it their storefront? The fact that you have to pay for games to get them? That's not drm. GoG is a distribution service, of course you can't play their games until you paid for them. There's no rule that says drm-free means you got all your games for free. And at the end of the day, all your Steam games are still owned by Valve. They're just easy to get to[/quote]

Sorry for the confusion. It's just a symptom of me refusing to see DRM as the one way street that most publishers want it to be

GoG has an account interface that lets you view you your purchases. It is digital. Thats the D. This interface lets you Manage the Rights you have purchased. Theres the R and the M. Beyond that there is no other DRM attached to your exe files. You can do as you please. If you lose your stuff (unrecoverable HDD crash for example) you can go back there and re download it. I'm just pointing out that it is an example of 100% consumer rights focused DRM. It's fantastic but it's also why, sadly, you will never get a new release AAA game from GoG. Publishers wont want to risk consumers having that sort of freedom.

I get your angle as well. I just have a tendancy to split hairs on the literal meaning of words. Drives people that know me crazy

edit: Dammit. messed up the quote. sorry

 

[Asun]

I don't hate it but I don't love it either. Never liked their TOS much so I "rent" those games that I really want from steam when they are on 75% sale. And I buy DRM-free stuff on GoG or retail whenever possible. Funny thing, I have more games on steam than on GoG but the latter certainly got more of my money. Which is fine. I'm generally willing to pay more than 4,99 or 9,99 but not for a "rental" version.

 

[PoolCleaningRobot]

Sorry for the confusion. It's just a symptom of me refusing to see DRM as the one way street that most publishers want it to be

GoG has an account interface that lets you view you your purchases. It is digital. Thats the D. This interface lets you Manage the Rights you have purchased. Theres the R and the M. Beyond that there is no other DRM attached to your exe files. You can do as you please. If you lose your stuff (unrecoverable HDD crash for example) you can go back there and re download it. I'm just pointing out that it is an example of 100% consumer rights focused DRM. It's fantastic but it's also why, sadly, you will never get a new release AAA game from GoG. Publishers wont want to risk consumers having that sort of freedom.

I get your angle as well. I just have a tendancy to split hairs on the literal meaning of words. Drives people that know me crazy

edit: Dammit. messed up the quote. sorry

You're forgetting a key word: SOFTWARE. DRM is software attached to your games to control who can use them. With GoG, you buy a game and are given the right to play it however you want and do whatever you want to the files. You're NOT allowed to simply give the installs to whoever you want, you agreed that you wouldn't when you bought the game. Since GoG does not have software attached to its games to control who can use it, there is no DRM. Its how a storefront should work. You buy a game, you own the game. DRM is about control and so long as your games have DRM, you can't control them. Steam gives a lot of control, but its nothing more than a long leash

 

[Doom-Slayer]

Dont worry, Im not picking on you or saying you dont like Steam What I am saying is, getting a refund, it should be fairly difficult or instead, be a case by case sort of thing because the actual times where refunds are justified, is really rare.

Take for example the new Thief that came out. I got it, got to the first mission, attempted to pickpocket a guy and got a hard crash to desktop. I made a new save, I tried every graphics settings, windowed, borderless mode, I tried almost everything.

BUT. I went to the forums, I found only a single person with the same problem and the thread disappeared pretty quickly under the weight of hundreds of other players who it worked fine for. Based on that, I immediately knew it was my PC that had the problem not the game. Posted another thread on the issue in the Bugs section, had a Thief dev reply and ask me for logs/specs, told me my graphics driver was out of date. Updated it, fixed the problem.

Thats what I see as the issue. There are very very few times where a refund is actually justified where the GAME is actually broken. So Steam does it mostly on a case by case basis, and because people are misusing it, it gets bogged down and doesn't work as well as it should.