Sympathy for the Devil

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RedEyesBlackGamer

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Jan 23, 2011
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Ladette said:
Loghain is a badass, unless I want Alister around for the epilogue I kick him out for Loghain ever time. He actually seems to be a pretty decent fellow once
he becomes a Grey Warden.

To be honest the character I really wanted to kill was Duncan, I hated him from the moment I met him. Especially if you try and refuse to join the Grey Warden's, he pulls out that bullshit "conscription" garbage that your character cannot refuse. By extension, Alister's constant whining about Duncan has led to me hating him.
Yeah, after reading The Stolen Throne, I can't not spare Loghain. He brings up valid concerns about letting the Orlesians come into the country while Ferelden is weak (the Orlesians being complete douchebags), putting all of their chips on a non-Ferelden force (the Wardens), and is just trying to unify the country against the darkspawn by any means possible (poisoning Eamon).

Turns out after he joins the party he is really likable and trustworthy. Alistair, on the other hand, showed me just how much of a whiny prick he really was. Killing Loghain would solve nothing but poor little Alistair wants his revenge. Alistair would have made a terrible king, couple that with his refusal to compromise, and his death was unfortunate but necessary.
 

Latinidiot

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Feb 19, 2009
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Father Time said:
Does Andrew Ryan qualify? If so then yes.

Also Zeus from the God of War games. Basically Kratos was acting evil and Zeus was justified in doing that. Not that I have no sympathy for Kratos.
I always thought that Kratos was the antagonist (well, since god of war 2, he does nothing silly in the first game).
 

random_bars

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Ophelia... It's really your fault that she turned against you in the first place, since you were the one who abandoned her based on flimsy logic and misunderstandings. And throughout the whole game, while she's sending off armies to try to kill you... They're not evil, just sad. Her entire faction is based around sadness, depression and tears...
 

Scarim Coral

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Oct 29, 2010
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I felt sympathy toward some of the bosses in No More Heroes 1 and 2 mainly the ones who aren't psychotic or really wanted to kill Travis. I suppose the one I felt the most Captain Vladimir the rank 3 since he was a astronaut lost in time and cannot remove his suit without dying to the expose air.
 

Vetala

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Jan 9, 2011
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The Boss...took me long enough for the final shot. And the amount of regret after that (revelation scene)...damnnn
 

NeuroticDogDad

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Apr 28, 2010
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Blue/Gary/Whatever you called him from Pokemon Red and Blue.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.182438-Gary-Oak-Was-The-Good-Guy?page=1

I know that requires a lot of interpretation and assumptions but if you go along with it then you get a pretty grim picture of what you've done. Having read that view on events while re-playing pokemon blue (on my old gameboy colour, hell yeah) I read the final conversation with him and Professor Oak and just felt like a dick.
 

Riobux

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Apr 15, 2009
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I'd say the closest to full out sympathy for someone who is an antagonist would probably be Kane from Kane And Lynch: Dead Men. He was never played out as the good guy personally, he wasn't out to save people or help others. He was just a guy who was in a fucked up situation trying to make the best of it. It made sense what The 7 did since they had a code to follow.

If we're talking full out antagonist, there are a few that made sense (Lucian from Fable 2, The 7 from Kane And Lynch: Dead Men and Arthas from Warcraft 3) but there's only one that springs to mind that I actually felt sympathy for: Your brother in Fable 3.

After all, your brother knew very well there was an over-whelming evil force coming. However, he kept the information to himself just because if he didn't it would of created a massive panic. The idea that there is a powerful entity coming your way which will likely kill at least half of the citizens isn't something easy to swallow. Plus, there was a good chance your brother, after facing the creature himself, was scared into a silence. I really did smile when this was revealed just because it turned the king from a "wow, what a 2D tyrant idiot" into "3D unsung hero". Someone who would only be remembered as an evil king, when in reality he was trying to save the population of his kingdom at the cost of a few years of suffering, poverty and disease.
 

endnuen

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Sep 20, 2010
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The bosses from MGS4. I mean their stories are horrible, you have no chance of understanding the horrors they went through. I pitied them fully.
Even Liquid Ocelot was hard not to feel sorry for, the poor basterd.
 

Elesar

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Apr 16, 2009
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No, no sympathy for the devil. Remember that. Buy the ticket. Take the ride.
 

sageoftruth

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Jan 29, 2010
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Dhaos from Tales of Phantasia. (SPOILER!) Of course, that's what the game wanted you to feel. It was still his fault for seeking to accopmlish his mission by destroying the human race. He could have avoided antagonizing them completely by revealing his motives to them. Feels kind of dumb when the whole conflict is based off a big misunderstanding.
 

Dark_Lemon

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The General in Gunman Chronicles..... at the start the player character really, really screws him over.... kind of reasonable that he's pissed thereafter.
 

8-Bit Grin

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Myself on The Settlers.

My second tutorial mission said this word for word:

"You've sent some sailors exploring along the northeast coast.
Yeah, they objected because the waters are shallow and filled with coral.
Of course, we sent them anyways.
They've wrecked (obviously), but fortunately there are a few survivors.
Lead the survivors north, to explore a bit."

There are four ragged men gathered around the wrecked vessel.
They're standing in a disorganized fashion, so I gather them up.
At this time, I start thinking about how pissed they must be.
They TOLD us that the waters were too shallow, and we refused to listen.
Now they're stranded far to the north of the colony.
Far from the cool beer they could share with friends, and farther still from the warmth and comfort of loved ones.
They obey my orders to explore the nearby forest, showing (in my mind) that they're still loyal to me.
We see some fawn, and I begin to think that they could build a small fort to wait it out.
I'm certain that I could send a caravan with supplies and workers, and to transport them home.
Suddenly, they emerge onto an open beach.
Filled with bloodthirsty Mayans.
One attempts to break away and run.
He's cut down by a flurry of arrows.
The rest stand and fight, eventually cut down in their service to me.

I felt like a terrible leader, and an even worse human being.

It may sound silly to care about a few pixels, but...

Their cries as they charged into imminent doom still bother me.
 

Quazimofo

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Aug 30, 2010
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for me, the only example i can really think of is Ashur from Fallout 3 The Pitt DLC. i mean yeah he was using extensive slave labor and putting them through hell to rebuild a city, but he just kinda played with the cards that he was dealt to do some good.

the brotherhood left him for dead when they tried to purge the city, and when he woke up his only real immediate advantage over everyone else in the city was his armor and fighting skills (brains dont help if nobody will listen long enough for you to convince them to not kill you for your stuff). he used this to build an army to secure the city, and then knowing he couldnt increase the pop naturally, he brought in slaves, the only really reliable means of labor available to him.

then the arena to elevate slaves to the higher class, which naturally was formed of the assholes he conscripted for his army, was not only morale boosting entertainment, something desperately needed, but it was the only way to get someone into the higher class and be at least semi-respected by the assholes who composed it already.

then he has the key to develop a cure to the radiation disease, and even hints at the people he is working on it (if not outright telling them, cant remember), with the intent (and probably ability) to form a more reasonable society once he didnt need to import slaves.

yet despite all this, there is no option to convince the rebels to stand down for the various reasons it is a bad idea (many will die, they will loose their entire defending army and alot of their land to the monsters Ashur would either cure or kill FOR them, the loss of the 2 minds most likely to create said cure if it is even possible), and siding with Ashur results in Bad karma. Not unlike Fable 3's moral choice thing. Developers really need to add in a "hunker down and do it because in the end it will all be alot better, and you cant do it as well as I" option to these kinds of situations.
 

Midnight Crossroads

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Reika from Fatal Frame 3

She was just a sacrifice. Her life was spent in a cage having the pain of everyone around her tattooed into her, and when there was no more room for tattoos, they nailed her to the wall of a chamber and sealed her there. The one good thing in her life came to see her one last time, was murdered, and she lost it. All the pain in her life spilled out to consume the people around her. They built a shrine around her and sealed in her to a dream world so she couldn't get out.
 

GodofCider

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Rhaff said:
Lucien from Fable 2, i mean he was just doing it to get his family back, can't really blame him for his motives, however his means were kinda dickish.
Well...at first he was; but then he entirely went off the deep end and wanted to rule the world, after reshaping it in an image he found preferable. Basically he was attempting to become an eternal dictator.
 
Sep 14, 2009
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Irridium said:
Teyrn Loghain from Dragon Age Origins.

Long have I hated that asshole. Then while on the internet someone blew my mind about his character and I now see him as one of the greatest hero's ever. Yes, hero. More of a hero then you were.

Bioware makes teh good gaemz. It's hard to dispute that. And in 2009, they released one of their finest games ever: Dragon Age: Origins.

A throwback to old school RPG's, Dragon Age: Origins was a massive treat to a large part of the role-play gamer demographic. Yet even though people praised it, they all failed to notice something through their first playthrough of the game. Something that some people are still oblivious to.

BIOWARE MADE YOU LOOK LIKE A FOOL!

They turned you into a narrow-minded goodie two-shoes that, in reality, would have spelled out the doom of the world. But Bioware were cruel and let you live oblivious to the fact that you were a dumbass that can't save a country for shit.

How did they do this, you ask? It's simple!

Meet the true hero of Ferelden:



Here is the man that liberated Ferelden from an oppressing nation that had occupied the country for 100 years. Here is the man that saved his homeland from a monarch that cared more about glory then what is best for everyone. Here is the man that had a purpose behind everything that he did, a man that only cared for the safety of his kinsmen.

And you totally killed him.

Don't deny it. You did. You killed him so Alistair wouldn't leave your team. You killed him because he was, from your naive and unfocused perspective, a meanie head.

But he never was.

You hate him because he killed your noble family? Sacrifices for the greater good. They, like you, would be too narrow-minded to see the bigger picture and would oppose him. Having Howe murder the shit out of them would get rid of opposition and strengthen the support from one of your allies.

You hate him because he enslaved elves? That's true, it's a dickish thing to do. He should have ignored them and let them live in poverty and subject them to prejudice. Why give them the chance to at least live someplace decent when he could just have them live in the incredibly shitty place they're currently residing in? It's not like they are regularly harassed by rapist nobl-Oh wait. So yeah, you saved them so they can continue living in poverty and saved them just in time so they could be murdered relentlessly by the Darkspawn. Way to go, hero.

You hate him because he killed Duncan? Let me ask you something. How well do you know Duncan? Did you, at any point, find that he has a personality? Did you ever stop to consider that he is incredibly bland and boring, and that he only cares about ending the blight and doesn't let anything else enter his mind? Ever realized that he's narrow-minded? Or that he looks kinda Hindu?

You hate him because he abandoned the army at Ostagar and made you look like a villain? Here's a little information: Even if Loghain would have stayed and helped, there was a very, very big chance that they would still lose. More people would've died, and it would be impossible to stop the Darkspawn from destroying Ferelden.

And as for you Wardens, what the crap was he supposed to do? He needed someone to put the blame on, and you were only two people. TWO PEOPLE. That's a pretty measly sacrifice for the safety of the nation.

You hate him because he nearly doomed the country by trying to kill the Grey Wardens, who are the only people physically able to kill the Archdemon? You know who you should hate for that? THE ENTIRE FUCKING GREY WARDEN ORGANIZATION! They were the ones who kept this entire ordeal secret, even for the fucking King. Loghain didn't know that a Grey Warden was needed to kill an Archdemon, because he was never told how it worked. He was told that they were needed to kill it for some vague, unspecific reason, but would you seriously, unconditionally believe that? I know I wouldn't, cause it would be fucking stupid.

And so to anyone who killed Loghain thinking he deserved it: YOU ARE WRONG! He is, in fact, much more of a hero than you. He didn't have no fucking Deus Ex Machina treaties that you had. He had to build an army from scratch. He couldn't save the country without making sacrifice, like you somehow were able to do thanks to the power of love. All this time Loghain has been the real hero, while the main character has been living a cliche lie. A lie that makes Dragon Age even more fucking brilliant than it already is, because several times over that lie makes you do decisions that bites you in the ass.

(Though it's a shame that Bioware are often too retarded to think more than 5 minutes ahead of the story, otherwise you wouldn't be able to simply reload a slightly older save to fix something you eventually found out to be a bad choice. LEARN FROM THE WITCHER, BIOWARE!)

So yeah. Thats why I feel sorry for Loghain.

Also Saren. He was just trying to do what he thought was best, which was "save some people rather then having everyone everywhere die", then had his views warped by Sovereign, eventually becoming indoctrinated without realizing it. Eventually he kills himself because he knows what he has become, and that he can never go back.
while i have sympathy for both of them, especially saren, i had the biggest grin on my face slicing both of them to pieces. (not literally)

i understand what loghain did and why he did it, but fuck that i would still kill him or use him as bait against the darkspawn, make that doucher feel what we felt earlier on in the game.
 
Sep 14, 2009
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GodofCider said:
Rhaff said:
Lucien from Fable 2, i mean he was just doing it to get his family back, can't really blame him for his motives, however his means were kinda dickish.
Well...at first he was; but then he entirely went off the deep end and wanted to rule the world, after reshaping it in an image he found preferable. Basically he was attempting to become an eternal dictator.
just from a few simple changes that game could have been amazing. adding an actual awesome climax battle with him that made sense to the story would've topped it off nicely. they did really well transforming him into a more and more dictatorish evil guy throughout the game.
 

flagship

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Feb 5, 2011
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Darth Malak from KOTOR.

[spoiler/] Darth Revan helps corrupt him, gets "redeemed" then comes back and kills him. Best part as he slowly dies he gets to realize how easily their roles could have been reversed.[/spoiler]