Team Fort... you're already sick of the this thread, aren't you?

[Caliostro]

So... All of them then? A great portion of those items I wouldn't say are useless, because a lot of them get a fair bit of use if not more than the ones you're saying are supposed to be better. It just depends on what type of player you are.

No, about half of them.

And popularity =/= quality, something reality keeps demonstrating all too often and people seem to be purposely ignoring. If 50 people wear a pile of shit as a hat it doesn't mean piles of fecal matter suddenly make for good headgear, it means 50 people need to be relocated to an asylum.

 

[snow]

snip

snip

snippity snip snip snip!

Ahhh... Haha! Freak'n d'uh! I should have known that... -,-;

-snip

No, about half of them.

And popularity =/= quality, something reality keeps demonstrating all too often and people seem to be purposely ignoring. If 50 people wear a pile of shit as a hat it doesn't mean piles of fecal matter suddenly make for good headgear, it means 50 people need to be relocated to an asylum.

I know this, and was not what I meant by my post. What I was trying to say is that those items must serve some useful purpose if players continue to use them. The way I see it, is a lot of people complain about one weapon or another in the game, saying that the player is noob or cheap for using it (and most likely happens after said player gets killed by the person using the item.) It is because of people making individual complaints about certain items that they distaste that I feel that either all the unlockable items are OP and evil or the players making complaints need to learn how to counter those said items.

On the other hand though, you're saying the exact opposite, where a good portion (as you said, half) of the unlockables (and a small portion of original items in comparison to the unlockables) are useless.

Not underpowered, because by your thoughts and feelings, you feel that a good player doesn't need those items because they would know how to use the other item in every given situation of the game.

That's the part that I kind of disagree with. While, I myself spend most of the time using the most efficient item at my disposal, say for example with the pyro flamethrower, there are situations (and certain maps even) where I'll switch to the backburner. Does this make me an ineffective pyro for switching to something more adaptable to my current needs? Not at all. I found a situation where I felt the BB would be more useful so I decided to make the switch to be more productive to what I am trying to accomplish and what the team needs at that given time.

I do this with a lot of other weapons as well, I'm not being ineffective or a bad player by using items that you say are useless, if anything by being able to point out when those items are going to be needed, I feel as if I'm more effective than those who just stick to one weapon setup. I'm being adaptive to the situation at the given time. Which if anything is a lot better than some one sticking to one setup all the time.

There are weapons out there that never get used, like the bonesaw in comparison to the ubersaw, but a lot of those items on that list that you've mentioned left me scratching my head. It seems like as if you were saying that "These people aren't good players unless they use this weapon all the time."

That's just silly talk if you ask me.

 

[Megacherv]

I swear they nerfed the Sniper's SMG, because it's just awful now, it can't even reveal a Spy.

 

[Triforceformer]

I swear they nerfed the Sniper's SMG, because it's just awful now, it can't even reveal a Spy.

Ok, now that's just stupid. Your statement, not the SMG. The SMg is accurate as crap if you aim right, and you have at least 100 damage a clip. But that doesn't even account for crits, or even damage spread.

 

[Megacherv]

I swear they nerfed the Sniper's SMG, because it's just awful now, it can't even reveal a Spy.

Ok, now that's just stupid. Your statement, not the SMG. The SMg is accurate as crap if you aim right, and you have at least 100 damage a clip. But that doesn't even account for crits, or even damage spread.

But...I ...but...touché...

 

[snow]

I swear they nerfed the Sniper's SMG, because it's just awful now, it can't even reveal a Spy.

Ok, now that's just stupid. Your statement, not the SMG. The SMg is accurate as crap if you aim right, and you have at least 100 damage a clip. But that doesn't even account for crits, or even damage spread.

But...I ...but...touché...

You got smacked down! Just playin'.

I usually prefer the SMG over the Jarate and razorback. I feel like my abilities are cut down extremely if I don't have it with me. Then again, I always end up crafting the jarate to get some metal, explain that one!

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

Wow, I never know Team Fortress 2 was so complicated! I thought there was just one weapon loadout for each class??? Boy was I wrong.

I'll have to play it sometime, it sounds interesting.

The changes that most enjoyed (and I understand why they did) are actually what stopped me from playing the game. The balance is still (generally) there, but suddenly seeing a particular class never told me much about them. That I jumped in after most of the updates were out there is probably the real cause of my problem as I was suddenly playing a very different and very confusion version of a game that, for all intents and purposes, appeared to be the same game I had played a year prior.

 

[Megacherv]

I swear they nerfed the Sniper's SMG, because it's just awful now, it can't even reveal a Spy.

Ok, now that's just stupid. Your statement, not the SMG. The SMg is accurate as crap if you aim right, and you have at least 100 damage a clip. But that doesn't even account for crits, or even damage spread.

But...I ...but...touché...

You got smacked down! Just playin'.

I usually prefer the SMG over the Jarate and razorback. I feel like my abilities are cut down extremely if I don't have it with me. Then again, I always end up crafting the jarate to get some metal, explain that one!

The SMG just seemed to no longer work. I fired at someone who I knew was a Spy, and it didn't even reveal them, didn't even do damage. I've swapped it with the Razorback since I can use melée alright now, and I always snipe in the same spot, so I might as well stop Spies from p**sing me off.

 

[snow]

I swear they nerfed the Sniper's SMG, because it's just awful now, it can't even reveal a Spy.

Ok, now that's just stupid. Your statement, not the SMG. The SMg is accurate as crap if you aim right, and you have at least 100 damage a clip. But that doesn't even account for crits, or even damage spread.

But...I ...but...touché...

You got smacked down! Just playin'.

I usually prefer the SMG over the Jarate and razorback. I feel like my abilities are cut down extremely if I don't have it with me. Then again, I always end up crafting the jarate to get some metal, explain that one!

The SMG just seemed to no longer work. I fired at someone who I knew was a Spy, and it didn't even reveal them, didn't even do damage. I've swapped it with the Razorback since I can use melée alright now, and I always snipe in the same spot, so I might as well stop Spies from p**sing me off.

You must have missed, a couple of days ago, for funzies I was using the huntsman/smg combo, for every body shot I got, the person was laying in a pool of blood filled with bullet holes around his arrow.. hole...?

Was he cloaked while you were doing this? I'm assuming you don't have a replay of it, so I don't really have an idea of what went wrong, considering you're having problems with it while on the other hand I'm loving it.

Do you have hit detection turned on? Perhaps it's more affective for me because I have that little "DING!" noise play every time I do damage to some one. Works wonders when trying to figure out if you're hitting some one who happens to be lagging as well.

 

[Swarley]

The SMG just seemed to no longer work. I fired at someone who I knew was a Spy, and it didn't even reveal them, didn't even do damage. I've swapped it with the Razorback since I can use melée alright now, and I always snipe in the same spot, so I might as well stop Spies from p**sing me off.

Any spy who doesn't have his head located in his rear is just going to kill you in 2-3 revolver shots anyway.

 

[Megacherv]

I swear they nerfed the Sniper's SMG, because it's just awful now, it can't even reveal a Spy.

Ok, now that's just stupid. Your statement, not the SMG. The SMg is accurate as crap if you aim right, and you have at least 100 damage a clip. But that doesn't even account for crits, or even damage spread.

But...I ...but...touché...

You got smacked down! Just playin'.

I usually prefer the SMG over the Jarate and razorback. I feel like my abilities are cut down extremely if I don't have it with me. Then again, I always end up crafting the jarate to get some metal, explain that one!

The SMG just seemed to no longer work. I fired at someone who I knew was a Spy, and it didn't even reveal them, didn't even do damage. I've swapped it with the Razorback since I can use melée alright now, and I always snipe in the same spot, so I might as well stop Spies from p**sing me off.

You must have missed, a couple of days ago, for funzies I was using the huntsman/smg combo, for every body shot I got, the person was laying in a pool of blood filled with bullet holes around his arrow.. hole...?

Was he cloaked while you were doing this? I'm assuming you don't have a replay of it, so I don't really have an idea of what went wrong, considering you're having problems with it while on the other hand I'm loving it.

Do you have hit detection turned on? Perhaps it's more affective for me because I have that little "DING!" noise play every time I do damage to some one. Works wonders when trying to figure out if you're hitting some one who happens to be lagging as well.

To be fair, I once did it with the minigun at point-blank range, and it still didn't reveal him.

 

[Corpse XxX]

- The Syringe Gun - Decent on it's own, but no reason to ever use it instead of the Blutsauger.

Uh, what? It's regen is Godly. If you have team mates who can protect you the syringe gun is way better. Blutsauger is for medics who like to fight or have sucky teammates and are forced to.

Ot: The only change I'd make is a natashca nerf. That weapon is annoying as hell.

I so flocking agree, natasha is the single most annoying piece of weapon probably in gaming history.. The ability to slow people down to a snails pace is way overpowered..

Heavy is my favourite class to play, but i would never use that gun just because i know how piss annoying it is to be killed by it..

damage done by it should be halfed..

 

[Corpse XxX]

Also, that heavy chocolate is the most useless unlock/weapon/gear in the whole game.. It is in fact totally utter useless piece of shait..

sandvich is ten folds better..

Maybe if it would give 300 extra HP no matter what, but that there was no regen and could only use once per life, it would have been better.. Or something like that..

 

[snow]

-one big uber ultra sniggity schnip snip schneeep!-

To be fair, I once did it with the minigun at point-blank range, and it still didn't reveal him.

I'll have to try this out the next time I'm down at the parents house with my big lovable beast of a computer. I can't play it on my girlfriends laptop for it would esplodes.

Maybe you stumbled onto something that was secretly nerfed by Valve? Till I suggest trying what I said about turning on that hit detection ding.

It would be weird if they had made it so the smg doesn't reveal spies when just about EVERYTHING else does, but I could kind of see them doing it in hopes that more people will use Jarate or something, but even then that is some majorly flawed thinking on their behalf, because why would any other damage reveal the spy but the SMG doesn't?

What happened exactly? Some one popped up disguised as some one, you knew it was a spy so you started laying into him with the SMG and he didn't die or even be revealed? Or did he die but wasn't revealed? If possible, are you able to record a scenario for demonstrative purposes?

- The Syringe Gun - Decent on it's own, but no reason to ever use it instead of the Blutsauger.

Uh, what? It's regen is Godly. If you have team mates who can protect you the syringe gun is way better. Blutsauger is for medics who like to fight or have sucky teammates and are forced to.

Ot: The only change I'd make is a natashca nerf. That weapon is annoying as hell.

I so flocking agree, natasha is the single most annoying piece of weapon probably in gaming history.. The ability to slow people down to a snails pace is way overpowered..

Heavy is my favourite class to play, but i would never use that gun just because i know how piss annoying it is to be killed by it..

damage done by it should be halfed..

As a scout player I agree, Natasha is a real pain in the ass, but I feel if the damage was lowered anymore, the weapon would be extremely useless, all they really need to do is cut back on just how much the weapon slows you down. Either that or allow those who are being shot by it to be able to regain speed by jumping, because right now you're pinned down regardless of what you're doing.

Jumping might not work, because it provokes bunny hopping, and we get enough of that with soldiers trying to blow our legs off. It's kind of like how Valve made it so that way people who have older wounds get healed faster than those who have fresh wounds. They did this so that way players would fall back more when injured where as they originally didn't do this because the amount of time to get fully healed was about the same amount of time it took to respawn.

So they probably wouldn't fix it by having people jump. That too would also make it semi-useless, especially against scouts who are practically always in the air to begin with.

I don't remember when natasha was first introduced, but it reminds me of this one article I read that the writer said it's always better to go overboard than to not have something be strong enough.

It was said in the article that if there was a character that was weak compared to the others (underpowered) that character would still be considered weak even after it was fixed. By going overboard (overpowering the character or item in question) it will quickly get the attention of the players, and they quickly get feedback on how to balance it out in comparison to the other characters or items.

Developers do this from time to time when they create something that they aren't too sure of how strong or weak to make it, so they overpower it and fix it accordingly after they get some feedback.

This is mostly done in beta testing with professionals, but in a constantly updated game like this, I can see why something like the Natasha would get thrown into the mix. Though granted, depending on how long it's been out, it could either mean that Valve intended for the weapon to be like that, or haven't decided on what to change about it yet that would work best.

Also, the Heavy got somewhat of a nerf when the Sandvich got a recharge, so it would probably be a little while yet before they decide to do something about the Natasha considering how everyone screamed for blood when Sandvich got nerfed.

(Even though most of that screaming was by people who wanted Sandvich parties, not by those thinking that the game was broken by the update.)

What were we talking about again?

Oh yeah, if anything, I think the Natasha needs a nerf in terms of how much it slows you down.

IF ANYTHING!!! Have it be like the medics HoT (heal over time for those that don't know MMO lingo). If you're hurt as a medic, your health will regenerate at a faster rate the longer you remain injured.

So for instance, you were recently injured, so you start regenerating at 2hp per tick, after a certain amount of time goes by, that Regen rate will go up to about 6hp per tick.

What I'm getting at is, the longer you're injured, the faster you will heal... This could work for Natasha as well... The longer you remain taking damage by the weapon, the slower you will get.

The speed reduction you get right now in the games current state could be the maximum speed penalty. So if you're taking fire from the weapon, you will start slowing down at a steady rate to that maximum, instead of dropping to that speed the instant you're hit. That right there might fix the problem up just nice!

 

[Kwaren]

I personally can't stand that game. I have played it and I find it bland and repetitive. I get sick of hearing about how good it is.

 

[Vortigar]

There are weapons out there that never get used, like the bonesaw in comparison to the ubersaw, but a lot of those items on that list that you've mentioned left me scratching my head. It seems like as if you were saying that "These people aren't good players unless they use this weapon all the time."

1. Caliostro is disregarding any and all players who haven't mastered or know about certain aspects of the game. Also casual players who care more for the thrill or feel of a certain item than their pure effectiveness. These are reasons to keep stuff in the game, to attract a wider audience for example, but they're indeed meaningless to higher level play.

2. He's also working off current knowledge and playstyles. (Though this counts less in FPS than in RTS or fighters as the amount of considerations are way smaller.) There may be playstyles or tactics out there that haven't been perfected yet or are still completely undiscovered. (For example: Yang went from crap to mid tier some seven years after Third Strike was released because they finally figured out how to play him to his top effectiveness. Terran also went from loser ville to viable alternative after a couple of years of Broodwar being out.)

Apart from that he's probably right. What he says makes sense and I can't say I've played/seen the game enough or at a high enough level. A lot of what he pointed out I've found out for myself during play as well. Particularly the Backburner and the Huntsman, the alternatives are so much better. I've also came face to face with the limitations of the 'Targe last week and have given up the melee maniac playstyle. Though I guess I'll give it a whirl now and again to see if the opposing team is paying attention.

 

[BlumiereBleck]

They could make it fun.

 

[Megacherv]

-one big uber ultra sniggity schnip snip schneeep!-

To be fair, I once did it with the minigun at point-blank range, and it still didn't reveal him.

I'll have to try this out the next time I'm down at the parents house with my big lovable beast of a computer. I can't play it on my girlfriends laptop for it would esplodes.

Maybe you stumbled onto something that was secretly nerfed by Valve? Till I suggest trying what I said about turning on that hit detection ding.

It would be weird if they had made it so the smg doesn't reveal spies when just about EVERYTHING else does, but I could kind of see them doing it in hopes that more people will use Jarate or something, but even then that is some majorly flawed thinking on their behalf, because why would any other damage reveal the spy but the SMG doesn't?

What happened exactly? Some one popped up disguised as some one, you knew it was a spy so you started laying into him with the SMG and he didn't die or even be revealed? Or did he die but wasn't revealed? If possible, are you able to record a scenario for demonstrative purposes?

I've had the ding since after this incident (well, not sure about the ding, but I've had the damage-dealt notification activated anyway).

I just started firing at him and their disguise didn't reveal, they just kept running. With the minigun, I did the same, and I thought 'ahh, mustn't be a Spy', then he sodding backstabbed me.

 

[Kinguendo]

The only reason to ever use the homewrecker is if you're playing "sentry defender". Otherwise, it's not justifiable to lose the sheer power and versatility of the axtinguisher to the whole 2 times every 100 matches you'll come across a spy, within "unsapping" range, sapping stuff with no living engineers nearby.

If you're playing "sentry defender", there's absolutely no excuse to let a spy go by you if you're still alive. There's equally no excuse to let them KILL THE ENGINEER AND SAP THE BUILDING. Spy checking is absurdly easy, "free", and should be done to everyone when playing on defense. Flame + Airblast (usually finished with an axtinguisher hit) makes it impossible for any spies to even get close to the sentries, let alone sap them. If you're playing "sentry defender" and spies are killing your engineers and sapping your shit, you're doing it wrong.

Airblast is for team players. The Homewrecker is for bad players.

Now, I havent played TF2 but it sounds to me like you only like weapons that are super powerful and dont let the other people play the game. Every reason you gave for not liking these weapons was basically they arent the best... :/

For example, spawn raping in MW2 matches by quick scoping with the intervention... no skill required and they die in 1 hit. You are stopping people from playing the game, which they paid just as much as you for, because you dont want to waste your time with things like "aiming" in a shooting game. Some people like weapons for other reasons than simply how easy they get kills... heres another example, in Pokemon do you fill your team with the strongest pokemon or the ones you like?

The harder something is to do, the more skill it takes to do it. Dont know about you but actually being good at a game means something to some people.

EDIT: I gave some thought to getting it for the 360 but apparently no one plays the 360 version... and I saw that cat apocalypse thing and laughed, still didnt want to get it for the PC though.

 

[snow]

There are weapons out there that never get used, like the bonesaw in comparison to the ubersaw, but a lot of those items on that list that you've mentioned left me scratching my head. It seems like as if you were saying that "These people aren't good players unless they use this weapon all the time."

1. Caliostro is disregarding any and all players who haven't mastered or know about certain aspects of the game. Also casual players who care more for the thrill or feel of a certain item than their pure effectiveness. These are reasons to keep stuff in the game, to attract a wider audience for example, but they're indeed meaningless to higher level play.

2. He's also working off current knowledge and playstyles. (Though this counts less in FPS than in RTS or fighters as the amount of considerations are way smaller.) There may be playstyles or tactics out there that haven't been perfected yet or are still completely undiscovered. (For example: Yang went from crap to mid tier some seven years after Third Strike was released because they finally figured out how to play him to his top effectiveness. Terran also went from loser ville to viable alternative after a couple of years of Broodwar being out.)

Apart from that he's probably right. What he says makes sense and I can't say I've played/seen the game enough or at a high enough level. A lot of what he pointed out I've found out for myself during play as well. Particularly the Backburner and the Huntsman, the alternatives are so much better. I've also came face to face with the limitations of the 'Targe last week and have given up the melee maniac playstyle. Though I guess I'll give it a whirl now and again to see if the opposing team is paying attention.

A lot of what he says does make sense, but given the countless situations you could face in a game, it's silly to just overrule the potential usefulness of a weapon/class/race/ or anything for that matter.

When it came to CoD4 and grenade launchers, people hated those that used the noob toob because it was Overpowered. Caliostro is hating on people that don't use the most useful weapons/items in the game.

The gunboats replace the shotgun to give the player more use out of rocket jumping. Now, he's saying it's a useless item because the shotgun is more useful due to the fact that you're capable of picking off people damaged by your rockets.

So he's saying that anyone who is really effective at using the gunboats isn't a good player because they aren't using the shotgun to pick off those who are damaged? Probably not, but it's the impression that I get.

I'm sure if brought up, he'd say something about health packs and medics are all over the battlefield so anyone who doesn't want to take the time to find one isn't a good player or something.

The only thing I really agree with him is about the Huntsman and Direct Hit, they both do rely a bit on luck to be effective, and like I said in another thread in regards to the huntsman, you do have a bit of a say in how lucky that sniper is.

I don't know though, I play games with a strategic mindset, especially when it comes to competitive play, so when it comes to weapons in TF2, I just feel like I'm contributing more to the team when I am using everything I have to my disposal.

Now, that doesn't mean I go around noob toobing in CoD4 mind you, that's for single player, but to say some one isn't a good player because they are being effective with a weapon that's not as effective as the original confuses me.

Jumping back to the Backburner vs Flamethrower debate, The Backburner sacrifices the m2 blast ability for more damage and mini-crits to the back. On the other hand, that blast is useful for,

Deflecting rockets/pipes
Pushing stickies/enemies
putting out fires on your team mates.

On paper, it is clear that the original flamethrower does have the upper hand, but this is the part of the discussion where I would put this to use in a situation and we would debate back and forth which flamethrower would be the best in that situation or other situations that would be brought up later, leading us to the point where we both agree to disagree and continue on with our lives.

Is he a better player for using the original flamethrower all the time? Am I a better player for picking out when it is time to use it? that all depends, what if I decide it's time to use a specific weapon for a certain situation that ends up killing him and he decides to retaliate by saying I'm not a good player for using what he originally said was a useless item?

If you're able to use it effectively, it gets the job done. and it's not overpowered. Then I can't help but disagree with you. There ARE items in TF2 that are useless, but the list is simply not THAT big.