Team Fort... you're already sick of the this thread, aren't you?

[Dr_Steve_Brule]

- The Direct Hit - Absurdly useless in comparison to the rocket launcher.

NO
NO
NO
NO
NO
NO
NO
ENNNN
OOOHHHHHH

No.

 

[Neverhoodian]

The Razorback is definitely in need of some sort of buff to make it a viable unlock. In all my time spent as a Sniper, I have never used it, as Jarate is far more beneficial to the team as a whole (reveals cloaked Spies, grants a damage boost against coated enemies, can put out fires on teammates). Sure I get backstabbed every now and then when I'm zoomed, but any decent Spy would have just plugged me with his Revolver/Ambassador anyway. Perhaps it could give players an extra 25 HP, making the Sniper's base health 150. It would increase overall survivability while still ensuring enemy Snipers would be a threat (uncharged headshots do 150 HP damage).

Dalokohs Bar needs serious help as well. I think the following changes would make it a viable sidegrade:

-Reduce eating time from 4.3 to 2.15 seconds
-Reduce cooldown from 25.7 to 10 seconds
-Allow it to be throwable, healing for 30 HP without any increase in maximum health

 

[Caliostro]

I know this, and was not what I meant by my post. What I was trying to say is that those items must serve some useful purpose if players continue to use them.

Not necessarily. People are remarkably clueless.

A good, non TF2 related, example are things such as Michael Bay's Transformers, Twilight or Modern Warfare 2, 50 cents or Justin Biebr, which have absolutely no redeeming qualities and still enjoyed massive commercial successes.

The way I see it, is a lot of people complain about one weapon or another in the game, saying that the player is noob or cheap for using it (and most likely happens after said player gets killed by the person using the item.) It is because of people making individual complaints about certain items that they distaste that I feel that either all the unlockable items are OP and evil or the players making complaints need to learn how to counter those said items.

That's not what I said. Heavies, in general, are currently cheap in comparison to most classes. They're much, much, easier to use, having been considerably dumbed down in a couple of somewhat recent patches, and they create far more destruction than they should given how easy they are to use currently. They used to be one of those "difficult to master, but with big payoff" classes, but now they're just big payoff and easy to master. This isn't the case with the aforementioned weapons. They're not "cheap". They're not overpowered. On the contrary, they're bad.

I agree with what you said there, all too often people will cry fowl without objective information to backup their claims, basing themselves mostly off of anecdotal evidence, or conjecture usually based on their own inadequacies as players... Which is what lead to the "heavy dumbdown" I mentioned above. But that's not what I mentioned here at all, as you noted bellow.

On the other hand though, you're saying the exact opposite, where a good portion (as you said, half) of the unlockables (and a small portion of original items in comparison to the unlockables) are useless.

Not underpowered, because by your thoughts and feelings, you feel that a good player doesn't need those items because they would know how to use the other item in every given situation of the game.

That's the part that I kind of disagree with. While, I myself spend most of the time using the most efficient item at my disposal, say for example with the pyro flamethrower, there are situations (and certain maps even) where I'll switch to the backburner. Does this make me an ineffective pyro for switching to something more adaptable to my current needs? Not at all. I found a situation where I felt the BB would be more useful so I decided to make the switch to be more productive to what I am trying to accomplish and what the team needs at that given time.

I do this with a lot of other weapons as well, I'm not being ineffective or a bad player by using items that you say are useless, if anything by being able to point out when those items are going to be needed, I feel as if I'm more effective than those who just stick to one weapon setup. I'm being adaptive to the situation at the given time. Which if anything is a lot better than some one sticking to one setup all the time.

There are weapons out there that never get used, like the bonesaw in comparison to the ubersaw, but a lot of those items on that list that you've mentioned left me scratching my head. It seems like as if you were saying that "These people aren't good players unless they use this weapon all the time."

That's just silly talk if you ask me.

Ok, maybe I didn't explain myself well enough. I honestly can't see any reason to ever use those weapons. Ever. Everything you need to do with those weapons can be done better in some other way with other weapons or abilities from those same characters (or it's not the character's job at all, like the huntsman's "get to the frontline!" mantra). I'm not saying you should NEVER change your setup. There are some valid sidegrades in the mix. Jarate is a good sidegrade. Despite preferring the revolver and heavily preferring the standard invisibility watch, there are uses for the other watches and for the ambassador. Shotgun and flare are very good examples of sidegrades that each provide pros and cons to each other. It's just those weapons, those specifically listed weapon, which, doing the most objectively possible analysis, I'm unable to find either any pros at all (like in the Huntsman's case) or significant enough pros to justify the very significant cons (like the Blutsauger).

Only time I can ever see the backburner being really useful is if, hypothetically, you have a bunch of heavies, in payload, with nobody covering their backs, and playing in a specific map and/or map position that allows for quick flanking... As I said before, for the most part, if you're catching people from behind, they should be dead anyways.

Now, I havent played TF2 but it sounds to me like you only like weapons that are super powerful and dont let the other people play the game. Every reason you gave for not liking these weapons was basically they arent the best... :/

For example, spawn raping in MW2 matches by quick scoping with the intervention... no skill required and they die in 1 hit. You are stopping people from playing the game, which they paid just as much as you for, because you dont want to waste your time with things like "aiming" in a shooting game. Some people like weapons for other reasons than simply how easy they get kills... heres another example, in Pokemon do you fill your team with the strongest pokemon or the ones you like?

I don't play pokemon at all, MW2 is a horrible game in every area (but thanks for helping me make my earlier point to the previous fellow) and you missed the point entirely. We're not talking about unbalanced weapons. With the exception of heavies, currently, everything in this game is pretty well balanced. It's not "everything else that's OP", it's those weapons specifically that are bad.

The harder something is to do, the more skill it takes to do it.

Some of those weapons, like the huntsman, can't even rely on skill! You missed my point entirely.

[Rage]

Would you like to backup your claims or just felt like letting it out?

 

[Ze_Reaper_Of_Zeath]

- The Direct Hit - Absurdly useless in comparison to the rocket launcher.

-snip-

No.

Yep, the splash damage from the Rocket Launcher is probably the most useful thing for Soldiers, it's just that professionals, who can do "rocket bouncing" like to use DH, because it is faster, and just the pure fact of mini crits..takes some time to learn it, but once you do, you'll love it.

Not saying that I can do it..

 

[Kinguendo]

*snip*

How did I miss the point? Your main reason for disliking most of the weapons you listed WAS that they arent the best. Using the best of everything doesnt guarantee a win but it does make it much easier, hence why using weapons that ARENT the best and winning means you, as a player, are better. You even said "Spy checking" is easy and no reason why you shouldnt do it... T_T

The fact that its so easy is a reason for some people, they would rather get good at the game than spray fire around.[/quote]

 

[WelshDanny]

I swear they nerfed the Sniper's SMG, because it's just awful now, it can't even reveal a Spy.

Megacherv!

It is I, your fellow NT* member Danny.

Small world.

/Irrelevant post.

 

[Daveman]

Well personally I miss the times before without any of the new weapons. I just think the game worked better.

 

[Megacherv]

I swear they nerfed the Sniper's SMG, because it's just awful now, it can't even reveal a Spy.

Megacherv!

It is I, your fellow NT* member Danny.

Small world.

/Irrelevant post.

It's Danny! I had no idea you were on here! Yay!

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Obvious link is obvious [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/groups/view/The-Escapist-Team-Fortress-2-Group-PC]

And don't worry about Caliostro, he has some strong viewpoints.

 

[Caliostro]

Yep, the splash damage from the Rocket Launcher is probably the most useful thing for Soldiers, it's just that professionals, who can do "rocket bouncing" like to use DH, because it is faster, and just the pure fact of mini crits..takes some time to learn it, but once you do, you'll love it.

Not saying that I can do it..

Airshots aren't that hard, but even hitting airshots the damage difference isn't that significant.
You're going to kill most classes with one airshot anyways,and the one's that survive are easily done with a shotgun shell. It's not worth the loss of versatility provided by the RL.

How did I miss the point? Your main reason for disliking most of the weapons you listed WAS that they arent the best.

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH!

 

[Megacherv]

Items any good TF2 player will quickly scrap because they are objectively useless, in order of most absurdly useless to just plain old useless (more or less):

- The Huntsman - Always useless, all the time.
- The Homewrecker - Always useless, all the time. It's only potential use (remove sappers), forces you to hang around sentries... Which allows you to spy check almost exclusively, bypassing the need to remove sappers entirely.
- The Backburner - Absurdly useless in comparison to the flamethrower.
- The Direct Hit - Absurdly useless in comparison to the rocket launcher.
- The Chargin' Targe - Absurdly useless in comparison to the Sticky Launcher.
- The Razorback - Mostly useless. Decent snipers don't ever need it.
- The Scotsman's Skullcutter - The speed penalty is criminal. Becomes useless.
- The Gunboats - Useless in comparison to the shotgun.
- The Dalokohs Bar - Useless in comparison to the Sandvich, which in itself is inferior and more situational to the shotgun.
- The Force-A-Nature - Useless in comparison to the Scattergun in the hands of a decent scout.
- The Eyelander - Similar to the Skullcutter, but the health penalty isn't as egregious as the axe's speed penalty.
- Tibalman's Shiv - Was overnerfed from "balanced" to outright inferior to the Kukri.
- The Syringe Gun - Decent on it's own, but no reason to ever use it instead of the Blutsauger.
- The Bonesaw - Decent on it's own, but no reason to ever use it instead of the Ubersaw
- The Shovel - Standard melee weapon, but no real point over the equalizer.

There are a few other weapons I don't personally like, but those are the ones that are objectively useless. There's no good reason to use them at all. It's not "they're better or worse". It's that everything they do is either pointless or is done better by the item they're replacing.

Do you play on public servers at all? I just get the impression that you only play competetively...

You should join our Soldier only match (195.90.98.14:27016) that'll be on throughout the GMT night.

 

[Kinguendo]

How did I miss the point? Your main reason for disliking most of the weapons you listed WAS that they arent the best.

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH!

No wonder you bundle your replies together... because replying with that on its own to me would be reportable. Now exaplin yourself instead of being condescending. How has it gone over my head when my point was that you arent skilled if you just use the best weapons and your reason for not liking those weapons was that they arent the best? NOTHING has gone over my head, you just dont have an actual rebuttle to what I said and realised the folly of your argument.

 

[Caliostro]

Do you play on public servers at all? I just get the impression that you only play competetively...

You should join our Soldier only match (195.90.98.14:27016) that'll be on throughout the GMT night.

Actually I play public almost exclusively But, I'll take a look at your server. Cheers.

No wonder you bundle your replies together... because replying with that on its own to me would be reportable. Now exaplin yourself instead of being condescending. How has it gone over my head when my point was that you arent skilled if you just use the best weapons and your reason for not liking those weapons was that they arent the best? NOTHING has gone over my head, you just dont have an actual rebuttle to what I said and realised the folly of your argument.

I bundle my replies together because there's no reason to have 20 different posts in a row when I can just post everything in the same spot. Would it make you happier to have a post dedicated exclusively to your person?

And I didn't add anything because the only thing I can say is that you missed it. You missed it so entirely and brutally that it wasn't even funny.

Let put this in an analogy, see if you understand it better: If you're going into a knife fight, there's taking a handgun, there's taking a good knife, and there's taking a twinkie.

If you're taking a handgun into a knife fight, that can be seen as overpowered (disregarding the whole "in real life there's no such a thing as cheating" issue. TF2 is a game after all). You're going into a knife fight, and a gun provides a significant advantage over a knife for the most part. They're not in the same league. That wasn't my point. TF2 is balanced well enough that there aren't any particular "guns" in this "knife fight" (try to keep up with the analogy).

That doesn't mean that you should take a twinkie though. You're going into a knife fight, not a twinkie fight. Picking a good knife to take into a knife fight isn't "cheating", or making it easier on you, it's still a knife fight afterall, it's just not being stupid. If you take a twinkie into a knife fight either your opponent is a complete mouth breathing retard, at which point it's not even fun to beat them, or you have to be absurdly lucky to beat them, at which point it's also not particularly fun since the victory derives from random variables out of your control and not from your own skill.

And THIS is the issue I posted and you seem so determined to ignore. The aforementioned weapons are the "twinkies", and the others are the actual "knives". There are no guns in this particular allegoric knife fight, but there are a lot of twinkies you probably shouldn't use if you're trying to have a serious fight. You wouldn't join an F1 race on a ford fiesta, you wouldn't run the Tour de France on a unicycle, and you won't use those weapons if you wanna be a good TF2 player.

If you still didn't get it, I'm afraid we're back to "woooosh!", and that's where we'll stay unless I decide to dedicate the time to create pictograms and flowcharts...

 

[Megacherv]

Do you play on public servers at all? I just get the impression that you only play competetively...

You should join our Soldier only match (195.90.98.14:27016) that'll be on throughout the GMT night.

Actually I play public almost exclusively But, I'll take a look at your server. Cheers.

It's just the you seem quite elitist about your strategies, so I thought it was just a competetiveness mentality.

 

[Kinguendo]

I bundle my replies together because there's no reason to have 20 different posts in a row when I can just post everything in the same spot. Would it make you happier to have a post dedicated exclusively to your person?

No, obviously I was mad at the lack of a response you posted and that if your reply was just a single reply you would have been reportable for replying with that. Unlike you I put all of the information you need into my replies instead of saying "woosh!".

And I didn't add anything because the only thing I can say is that you missed it. You missed it so entirely and brutally that it wasn't even funny.

Let put this in an analogy, see if you understand it better: If you're going into a knife fight, there's taking a handgun, there's taking a good knife, and there's taking a twinkie.

If you're taking a handgun into a knife fight, that can be seen as overpowered (disregarding the whole "in real life there's no such a thing as cheating" issue. TF2 is a game after all). You're going into a knife fight, and a gun provides a significant advantage over a knife for the most part. They're not in the same league. That wasn't my point. TF2 is balanced well enough that there aren't any particular "guns" in this "knife fight" (try to keep up with the analogy).

That doesn't mean that you should take a twinkie though. You're going into a knife fight, not a twinkie fight. Picking a good knife to take into a knife fight isn't "cheating", or making it easier on you, it's still a knife fight afterall, it's just not being stupid. If you take a twinkie into a knife fight either your opponent is a complete mouth breathing retard, at which point it's not even fun to beat them, or you have to be absurdly lucky to beat them, at which point it's also not particularly fun since the victory derives from random variables out of your control and not from your own skill.

And THIS is the issue I posted and you seem so determined to ignore. The aforementioned weapons are the "twinkies", and the others are the actual "knives". There are no guns in this particular allegoric knife fight, but there are a lot of twinkies you probably shouldn't use if you're trying to have a serious fight. You wouldn't join an F1 race on a ford fiesta, you wouldn't run the Tour de France on a unicycle, and you won't use those weapons if you wanna be a good TF2 player.

If you still didn't get it, I'm afraid we're back to "woooosh!", and that's where we'll stay unless I decide to dedicate the time to create pictograms and flowcharts...

Except that doesnt work as an analogy... its not accurate in any way.

Your reason was that they arent good because they arent the best... see how that isnt the same as your analogy? Unless you are saying that the only things that can be consider what they actually are are weapons that are the best... like a machine gun isnt a machine gun unless its the best machine gun, which of course is bullshit, so it would be ridiculous of you to be saying this. See how your analogy doesnt work?

Also, your analogy does actually imply that weapons are over-powered... if the weapons you listed are like twinkies in comparison to the best weapons then clearly the best are OP. But obviously you are lying, the other weapons do damage and dont require luck to get kills.

 

[Caliostro]

post

And we're back to "woosh!".

The reason I posted the "woosh" replies is because it was becoming obvious that you simply don't understand it. It's like a physics teacher explaining Schrödinger's cat to an 8 year old... I know it sounds insulting, but there's honestly no better way to put it than you simply do not understand either my point, or the game mechanics entirely. Look here:

Your reason was that they arent good because they arent the best...

Wrong AGAIN. How many more times must I point out that this is NOT the point. It's not that the unmentioned weapons are the absolute best, it's that there is no logical reason to ever use the weapons I mentioned at all. There are other weapons I tend to consider inferior to their counterparts (e.g.: The Scottish Resistance, The Sandvich, The Fire Axe, Bonk...etc), but they have a purpose. They accomplish things the other weapons can't. For instances, The Scottish Resistance allows you to drop more stickies, in different locations, and explode them separately, as well as explode enemy stickies. Personally I find it inferior to the normal sticky gun, it's less versatile, slower, etc... But it has a point. It does things the demo has a use for that you can't accomplish equally with the Sticky Gun. Even the Fire Axe, most likely one of the most under used weapons and one of the weapons I, personally, use the least, has a legitimate use you can't replace with the axtinguisher: Underwater combat if you're not sporting the shotgun.

The weapons I mentioned simply have no use, or have only very, very specific and situational use that in no way compensates for the massive cons it comes with. The huntsman isn't bad because it isn't "as good as" as the Rifle. It's bad because there's absolutely nothing it can do the rifle can't do better. The Backburner is bad because it robs the Pyro of something he so desperately needs (the airblast), while giving it something he never needed to begin with (back crits).

But what shows that you really have absolutely no grasp of either my point or the game mechanics, is that you're not even arguing that the weapons I mentioned have a use, you're simply arguing that "there's no such a thing as a bad weapon!". Cause if there is a bad weapon, then it's everything else that's overpowered.

Also, your analogy does actually imply that weapons are over-powered... if the weapons you listed are like twinkies in comparison to the best weapons then clearly the best are OP.

... See what I mean? Yes, it's overpowered in comparison to bad weapons. Thanks Captain Obvious, you once again got caught up in semantics and failed to understand the point like a champion.

But obviously you are lying, the other weapons do damage and dont require luck to get kills.

Let me start you off with "you're wrong", and at least 2 of those DO require luck almost exclusively to get any kills outside of very close range, which is why they're crap: The Huntsman and the Direct Hit (you go back and read why, I've made posts regarding that in this very thread already).

But that said, allow me to reiterate the bleeding obvious: You don't get it. The rest of the game is perfectly balanced. If you use those weapons, THEN you're crippled. If you're not using those weapons, you're perfectly fine and balanced. Maybe you're new to the game and you simply don't understand how classes are balanced, in which case come back when your time spent in this game clocks over the 500-900 hours and we can discuss this again. The classes are perfectly balanced until you use these weapons, at which point, you will be crippled.

This isn't so much picking the broken "see through walls one hit kill" crap in MW2 (which, mind you, is a terrible, terrible, terrible game with 0 redeeming qualities, including the horrible balance), as much as picking a shotgun that automatically SHOOTS YOU IN THE FACE.

Please, PLEASE, read this carefully and consider your reply before you post, because if you're just going to go back to the same inane "THERE ARE NO BAD WEAPONS!" argument I'll just consider that you're trolling or beyond salvation and stop replying entirely.

 

[Caliostro]

It's just the you seem quite elitist about your strategies, so I thought it was just a competetiveness mentality.

Just realized I forgot to reply to you. Sorry bout that.

And no, this thread, originally, was about which weapons are objectively useless. From extensive analysis I have discovered that the aforementioned weapons are, in fact, useless.

You're allowed to use those weapons, much like you're probably allowed to run the Olympic marathon with flippy-floppies, by all means... But don't expect good results with them. You may love the huntsman and think that it's the best thing since the pill, and if you have fun with it then more power to you, but it's objectively inferior in every way to the Sniper Rifle.

 

[Megacherv]

It's just the you seem quite elitist about your strategies, so I thought it was just a competetiveness mentality.

Just realized I forgot to reply to you. Sorry bout that.

And no, this thread, originally, was about which weapons are objectively useless. From extensive analysis I have discovered that the aforementioned weapons are, in fact, useless.

You're allowed to use those weapons, much like you're probably allowed to run the Olympic marathon with flippy-floppies, by all means... But don't expect good results with them. You may love the huntsman and think that it's the best thing since the pill, and if you have fun with it then more power to you, but it's objectively inferior in every way to the Sniper Rifle.

I think that they could be used better as more situational weapons i.e. plan a flanking strategy with the backburner, since the crits-from-behind will be very useful; or the Cloak 'n' Dagger for scouting the area, then switching back when you're done with them;, or the Direct Hit when playing against me who constantly rocket jumps thanks to a script since I can't actually rocket-jump for shit.

 

[Triforceformer]

It's just the you seem quite elitist about your strategies, so I thought it was just a competetiveness mentality.

Just realized I forgot to reply to you. Sorry bout that.

And no, this thread, originally, was about which weapons are objectively useless. From extensive analysis I have discovered that the aforementioned weapons are, in fact, useless.

You're allowed to use those weapons, much like you're probably allowed to run the Olympic marathon with flippy-floppies, by all means... But don't expect good results with them. You may love the Huntsman and think that it's the best thing since the pill, and if you have fun with it then more power to you, but it's objectively inferior in every way to the Sniper Rifle.

Well not every way, you know. They did design them to be superior in ways that are different compared to the stock ones and such. They all have situations where they truly shine through and can mean the difference between life and death of you and your possible skill (Regarding the Razorback) or your team's defense (Hello wandering HomeWrecker Pyro). They aren't useless, you're just acting like an ass about them.

Edit: Woot, Number of the Beast post.

 

[AllLagNoFrag]

Hmm, I dont have the time to post alot so Im not going to get into the crossfire of the "weapon xx is useless because..."

So, Ill just say I find it kinda sad how some weapons have just pretty much been eliminated from tf2 like the Shovel (cuz of Equalizer) and the Bonesaw (cuz of Ubersaw). However, I still think that Valve is doing a great job with trying to keep weapons balanced. Arent they going to release a new set of items (polycount or something) soon? Not very updated with this because Ive been busy lately...