I'm pretty sure men have been villains far more than women, but they're the "default" so they tend no to get mentioned as much.Rebel_Raven said:
You know what's really rare? Female hero and female villain.
The Most Dangerous Woman in Videogames - Anita Sarkeesian
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You know what's really rare? Female hero and female villain.
Interesting. It's a mixture of bits that MIGHT be plausible, and bits that are blatantly not, which does not average out to a good "whole". Thunderf00t's bit on "Double Dragon" in particular was ridiculous - I don't see how you can accuse somebody of attacking "straw men" and then make a point like that without looking like an out-and-out hypocrite, because I'm pretty damn sure that the dedication of the protagonists in "Double Dragon" to their girlfriend was NOT what Sarkeesian was attacking there. On the other hand, saying someone represents "weak" female characters when she literally punches somebody in half by the balls... assuming that that is actually what Sarkeesian claimed, and not just another "straw man" argument by Thunderf00t... yeah, that's pretty bizarre as well. Of course, that's one heck of an assumption, since I haven't seen Sarkeesian's video on the subject either.Draconalis said:
Honestly there are enough bits in the Thunderf00t video that are just blatantly bulls--t for me to think that I shouldn't trust what it has to say - which makes it worthless in terms of this argument. That doesn't, of course, mean that Sarkeesian herself is inherently trustworthy... but I can only go on what I personally have seen and read of hers, which is not much.
The problem with a debate like this is that so many people seem to attach their "egos" to it. They pick a side and think that side HAS to be right, no matter what the actual facts of the matter turn out to be. My own prejudice, as stated, would be towards Sarkeesian rather than against her, but that's based on one video that I've seen, one article that I've read, and what knowledge I have of the treatment she's received by a group of people that I absolutely detest. What I'm saying is I'm judging more on my knowledge of what's been done to her, than what she's actually said herself. Not the safest basis to make a judgement.
Oh, yeah, I don't debate at all men have the majority of the villain roles, and guys are the ones that get mowed down by the thousands in games. And yeah, it sucks they're the default.Machine Man 1992 said:
I totally understand the desire to see more women as enemies as main foes, and grunts.
But I stand by my point that there's a lot more male default heroes putting a better light on guys to balance out guys being the default enemy, and I feel that takes a lot of the sting out of it. It's hard to talk from experience, though since, well, women are rarely the played main character, and the enemy for the majority of the time.
It is rare that women are at both ends of a game, the played protagonist, and the end game enemy, I agree. I wouldn't mind seeing more games like that. I mean when women are the villain, they're often below the main bad guy who's a guy, or there's a final boss after them.
Portal's protagonist was a woman?Gindil said:
Seriously, did we know ANYTHING about Portal's protagonist from the in-game stuff? As far as I can recall, she didn't even feature on the box-art... Thanks to the portals themselves you can at least tell that the character model is female, but without any personality or speech whatsoever, does that make any difference?
Also, GLADoS was meant to be female? I always regarded it as androgynous.
He did say rare, not non-existant. Have a longer list?Gindil said:
I'm not gunna split hairs, and disqualify Portal 1, and 2 just on the basis Chell's a woman, and that's about it in terms of depth, and Glados is a machine.
No need for the attitude. I merely corrected some misinformation. Whatever she decides to do with the extra money remains to be seen. Most likely she will finish her trope video series first before committing to any other large project (like developing a video game). So I think patience is the key here.DarkSpartan said:
Lets be honest here, how many games exist where gender means anything anyways? Nearly all characters in games I can think of are little more then sacks of flour with the gender attributed tacked on to it rather then a character where gender matters. I think Jade from Beyond good and evil may have had a character that acknowledges gender (seen through how the environment acted upon her in relation to her gender and how she responded to that) though that is a bit fuzzy as I not played that one in a while. I think Marcus Phoenix from Gears has a bit of character relating to gender due to backstory about how man are rafted into the fight in that world as well, which would then influence character,(what little he had) though never played much of those games. Beyond that off the top of my head, gender matters precious little in relation to character, and as such it is more often based in marketing/player expectation, controlling media reaction/outrage or fitting with ascetic.Rebel_Raven said:He did say rare, not non-existant. Have a longer list?Gindil said:
I'm not gunna split hairs, and disqualify Portal 1, and 2 just on the basis Chell's a woman, and that's about it in terms of depth, and Glados is a machine.
You're right about publishers, which are the incidents I have the most issue with. Developers may not want to make female main characters, but the ones that do are hard pressed to be allowed.Desert Punk said:
I really doubt a female lead would've done anything to change Deadly Pemonition coz it was largely rated on it's gameplay, and such, but would it have really hurt it?
The way I see it, every game that was intended to have a female protagonist but was changed from that vision by forces outside of the artist's intent as a step back from getting female representation in games.
The thing is, even in the modern world, women are getting held back, and disrespected. Women are in the industry though. Not a huge amount. I think extra credits said 1 in every 18 a while ago?
But the thing is, even if women are developers, there's producers they have to deal with. There's obstacles beyond getting in the industry to making games with female protagonists.
Crowd funding isn't a magical cure. People can't treat it like a pre-order because, well, lets look at Doublefine's attempt at it. They asked for money. They got the money, then they found out they needed a lot more money. It's not so simple as to just do it.
http://www.engadget.com/2013/07/03/double-fine-kickstarter-debacle/
Kickstarter's still new, too. And not everyone likes digital transactions, me being one of them.
Why does the gender matter in the first place? I can pull up games like Sin that have a evil villainess or I can point to games like FFX where the main hero of the story is a woman.Rebel_Raven said:He did say rare, not non-existant. Have a longer list?Gindil said:
I'm not gunna split hairs, and disqualify Portal 1, and 2 just on the basis Chell's a woman, and that's about it in terms of depth, and Glados is a machine.
Hell, Parasite Eve's main villain was a woman with you playing as Aya Brea.
Resident Evil had you play as a man and a woman until RE4.
I play games for the story or the gameplay. The gender of the character really doesn't matter unless you're playing a game like Catherine where it does have some type of social commentary on relationships while being an interesting puzzle game.
I hope you're not sayingrunic knight said:Lets be honest here, how many games exist where gender means anything anyways? Nearly all characters in games I can think of are little more then sacks of flour with the gender attributed tacked on to it rather then a character where gender matters. I think Jade from Beyond good and evil may have had a character that acknowledges gender (seen through how the environment acted upon her in relation to her gender and how she responded to that) though that is a bit fuzzy as I not played that one in a while. I think Marcus Phoenix from Gears has a bit of character relating to gender due to backstory about how man are rafted into the fight in that world as well, which would then influence character,(what little he had) though never played much of those games. Beyond that off the top of my head, gender matters precious little in relation to character, and as such it is more often based in marketing/player expectation, controlling media reaction/outrage or fitting with ascetic.Rebel_Raven said:He did say rare, not non-existant. Have a longer list?Gindil said:
I'm not gunna split hairs, and disqualify Portal 1, and 2 just on the basis Chell's a woman, and that's about it in terms of depth, and Glados is a machine.
"Lets be honest here, how many games exist where gender means anything anyways?"
Like it's a good thing?
Gender matters to the story. Assassin's Creed, the Witcher, Red Dead redemption, GTA, and a lot of story driven games demand the gender of the protagonist envisioned for the story be that gender.
If gender could be switched, we'd get something like Way of the Samurai 1, 2, 3, & 4 where a game with a script that is intended for a male protagonist can be played through as a woman. That means you can be a lesbian, sorta as you're more or less a guy trapped in a woman's body.
There's simply no inability to write for women, though. The games written for women are precious few.
Even in cases where gender doesn't matter, it breaks immersion for some people, like myself, to always know you're playing as the opposite gender. Something as simple as gender can add something desireable to a game.
Gender matters for representation, immersion, and basically not having to play the opposite gender more than your own.Gindil said:Why does the gender matter in the first place? I can pull up games like Sin that have a evil villainess or I can point to games like FFX where the main hero of the story is a woman.Rebel_Raven said:He did say rare, not non-existant. Have a longer list?Gindil said:
I'm not gunna split hairs, and disqualify Portal 1, and 2 just on the basis Chell's a woman, and that's about it in terms of depth, and Glados is a machine.
Hell, Parasite Eve's main villain was a woman with you playing as Aya Brea.
Resident Evil had you play as a man and a woman until RE4.
I play games for the story or the gameplay. The gender of the character really doesn't matter unless you're playing a game like Catherine where it does have some type of social commentary on relationships while being an interesting puzzle game.
The qualifier is a game where you play as a woman, and the main villain is a woman in the same game. One or the other doesn't cut it as far as the point of the list goes.
I kinda see games as movies in the sense that I take up the role of the main protagonist. Being a female, being offered almost entirely male only roles -sucks-. I'm not saying I can't play the role of a guy, but after gaming all of my life, I want the role of my own gender more often. I don't understand why it's such a terrible thing to want.
There's a -lot- of story driven games out there that rely on the gender of the main protagonist, like Catherine. Pretty much every last game that has a love interest in it for one.
Not wanting to put words in the mouths of others, i'll preface this as my opinion not Runic Knights.Rebel_Raven said:
Gender in games is token and/or superficial. Games do not tackle "what it means to be a woman" any less than they tackle "what it means to be a man".
What they often tackle is the Power fantasy in the physical sense. Which as I've been told is not an inherently male trait.
You reference Way of the Samurai in which you said it felt as though you were a man in a womans body. Now I haven't played Way of the Samurai so I don't know, but what traits of the protagonist made you feel this way?
Put in a more general way. What traits are inherently feminine? beyond the superficial of course.
What must a character do/say/feel/think to be considered a "woman"
If that's what you're looking for then that's your opinion. Far be it for me to stop you. I'm just not interested in the fictional rights of fictional characters in the newest Saints Row game.Rebel_Raven said:
And I'm not here to give a huge list of games. I pointed out that there are quite a few. That doesn't say anything about gender representation in games. You're really making some far reaching assumptions on video games that aren't really there.
Then you haven't played enough games because there's plenty with female representation. Maybe step back and keep away from the Kotaku journalism for a while? Because right now, you haven't even talked about the genres you like, the characters you want, or anything, you're just complaining that there aren't enough women in games which is a VERY tired argument right now.
Because either you're trying to say that developers should give you more female characters when you don't even know about the ones that exist in the first place, or you want to ignore games like Skyrim, Saints Row, or Dragon Age which allow you the choice to be a different gender and do things to cater to your choice. And why should anyone cater to people that don't want to understand story, gameplay, or anything else if the only thing that matters to them is "representation, immersion, and not being a dude?" That just makes no sense.
... So Dragon Age relies on you to be a female to sleep with Meredith...
...
Good to know...
Not a good thing per-say, but a noteworthy one, especially when the discussion has shifted to a female skinned silent flour sack and a female(?) AI with at least a complex personality if not a well fleshed character. Though, not necessarily a bad thing either, as gender not having a point in a game doesn't make it good or bad for that. Now gender being meaningless in a character and story driven game, well, that could be bad for laziness.Rebel_Raven said:I hope you're not sayingrunic knight said:Lets be honest here, how many games exist where gender means anything anyways? Nearly all characters in games I can think of are little more then sacks of flour with the gender attributed tacked on to it rather then a character where gender matters. I think Jade from Beyond good and evil may have had a character that acknowledges gender (seen through how the environment acted upon her in relation to her gender and how she responded to that) though that is a bit fuzzy as I not played that one in a while. I think Marcus Phoenix from Gears has a bit of character relating to gender due to backstory about how man are rafted into the fight in that world as well, which would then influence character,(what little he had) though never played much of those games. Beyond that off the top of my head, gender matters precious little in relation to character, and as such it is more often based in marketing/player expectation, controlling media reaction/outrage or fitting with ascetic.Rebel_Raven said:He did say rare, not non-existant. Have a longer list?Gindil said:
I'm not gunna split hairs, and disqualify Portal 1, and 2 just on the basis Chell's a woman, and that's about it in terms of depth, and Glados is a machine.
"Lets be honest here, how many games exist where gender means anything anyways?"
Like it's a good thing?
Gender matters to the story. Assassin's Creed, the Witcher, Red Dead redemption, GTA, and a lot of story driven games demand the gender of the protagonist envisioned for the story be that gender.
If gender could be switched, we'd get something like Way of the Samurai 1, 2, 3, & 4 where a game with a script that is intended for a male protagonist can be played through as a woman. That means you can be a lesbian, sorta as you're more or less a guy trapped in a woman's body.
There's simply no inability to write for women, though. The games written for women are precious few.
Even in cases where gender doesn't matter, it breaks immersion for some people, like myself, to always know you're playing as the opposite gender. Something as simple as gender can add something desireable to a game.
I was also thinking of games like any mario, Zelda, metroid, half-life, (any silent protagonist character really) nearly any make your own character game, borderlands, top-down diablo clones, side scrolling beat-em-ups, first person shooters, nearly any fighting game... Hell, most games I can think of off the top of my head and with boxes in the immediate area of my computer desk. Gender just has no impact there.
When you get to games with stories that drive the plot, this does become less, as your examples suggest (not played any but GTA on your list, though gender does play a factor there, true, and no reason to doubt the others). The deeper the plot, the more fleshed out the characters are, the more likely gender actually has some impact on the characters themselves, though it seems that it is also more likely to find better characters all around.
I can sort of understand frustration for not having a player character avatar that represents you in games, though I never had issues with the character I was playing being a girl. I was usually more annoyed if I didn't like the character ascetic then the gender they were. Still, I think there is something to game type and story importance in relation to gender importance and likelihood of seeing female protagonists. Too tired to pick out exactly what I latched onto about it, but it was something about how most characters in gaming are icons or archtypes rather then characters and how the lack character helps allow and encourage less female characters as protagonists or whatever due to factors more related to company and sales and demographic appeal and what not then developer intent or even audience outright demand.
sorry, seems a bit more of a tangent there then I initially though now that I reread it all.