These forums have some serious issues with JRPGs. And it's time to address them.

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TheSeventhLoneWolf

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I think some people hate on things because they idolise Yahtzee. Not everyone though. It's not everyibe's cup of tea. I do enjoy a good (J)RPG though I'm a solid FPS/RTS player.
 

Bobzer77

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May 14, 2008
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fletch_talon said:
Bobzer77 said:
fletch_talon said:
Bobzer77 said:
fletch_talon said:
*Checks the RPG section at any and all online or physical game stores, as well as any form of publication that deals with videogames.*

Hmmmm turns out that JRPGs are in fact RPGs and the simple fact that a few of you don't think they should be doesn't mean a damn thing.

Its all in the name folks, regardless of how inaccurate the term "ROLE playing" is for a game like final fantasy is, it is an RPG because that is the genre to which it has been assigned.
In the world of videogames RPG refers to a game in which the primary feature is the creation or choice of a character whom you can customise through the use of leveling and stats.

END OF STORY.
No in your opinion that is what an RPG is but in my opinion every JRPG I have played has been useless. Just because I think every JRPG is useless doesn't mean they are
No, if it was a matter of opinion I would have said as much. The industry places Final Fantasy and other games like it into the RPG genre, the defining features of which are the customisation of characters by way of levels/spells/equipment etc.
You don't get a say in what is or isn't an RPG, because the videogames industry has already made that decision hence the reason we see Final Fantasy, Chrono Trigger, Etrian Odyssey, Golden Sun and others filed under RPG wherever you look for them.
Look at Modern Warfare 2, in multiplayer the player levels, chooses what equipment load out he/she wants and chooses perks. If the games industry labeled that as an RPG I could use your argument to ensure that it remained in that category even though we all know it's an FPS.
Long story short, just because other games share the features that define an RPG game, they are not instantly deemed an RPG.
Just as you say now, just because a JRPG contains elements that define an RPG game, they should not instantly be deemed an RPG.

Back OT, do you agree that if a JRPG contained elements of true RPG's like choices that are more than roundabouts which lead you to make the decision the game wants you to make and true freedom that allows you to play the game in a myriad of different ways would it not be much better?
 

Deofuta

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JimmyBassatti said:
Onyx Oblivion said:
Bobzer77 said:
Onyx Oblivion said:
I blame Bioware for popularizing this idea. WRPGs didn't always have moral choice. They used to be purely about leveling and stats.
Purely leveling and stats aren't what an RPG is.
See Diablo.
From the Diablo article, on which it linked me to "Action role-playing game" (What Diablo is)

"An action role-playing game is a loosely-defined video game genre based on role-playing combat systems. These games feature a play style reminiscent of action games rather than being structured around a true Role-playing game system."

Which leads me to the "Role-playing game system" page.

"A role-playing game system is a set of game mechanics used in a role-playing game (RPG) to determine the outcome of a character's in-game actions. While early role-playing games relied heavily on either group consensus or the judgement of a single player (the "Dungeon Master" or Game Master) or on randomizers such as dice, later generations of narrativist games allow role-playing to influence the creative input and output of the players, so both acting out roles and employing rules take part in shaping the outcome of the game."

Thank you, Wikipedia.
Woah, guys take a look at this. Someone is presenting a middle ground!?!?!?

BURN HIM!
 

Caliostro

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Jan 23, 2008
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Onyx Oblivion said:
It's about the game, not the genre.
Let me stop you right here.

Yes, every game is an individual entity in the same manner that every person is an individual, and yes every reference to any genre as a whole is generally a gross and abusive generalization...blablabla...

Genres are defined by the set of characteristic common to it's "members". Yes, not all JRPGs have turn based combat, but you'll sooner name 50 that do than 5 that don't.

THAT said, I own every Final Fantasy from 7 to 12 (11 excluded... But yes, including the god awful x-2). I've moved away from JRPGs in general, and Final Fantasy in particular for different reasons.

I've moved away from Final Fantasy because it's almost always the same damn story with different characters and because it persists on the nerve-wrenching dickmove of either forcing you to play through the game with a walkthrough open, spoiling everything and ruining half the fun, or miss out on half the content for which there's no indication, and you have only one chance of ever getting, thus ruining half the fun.

I've moved away from JRPGs because they're generally the epitome of everything I hate in RPGs: Dull grinding, leveling systems and turn based combat.

Yes, you could argue not ALL of them do that, but I'm open to experiment the ones that don't... I just haven't found one.

You do have to admit though, at least most mainstream JRPGs do have a tendency towards the ridiculous... GO 12 YEAR OLD ADROGYNOUS BOY THAT NEVER PICKED UP A SWORD IN HIS LIFE! SAVE THE WORLD FROM PROFESSIONAL ARMIES TRAINED TO KILL BATTLE HARDENED SOLDIERS!!
 

Nazulu

They will not take our Fluids
Jun 5, 2008
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Onyx Oblivion said:
3. Story's lame:

You're kidding, right? JRPGs are known for their sweeping stories. You just don't have any choice over it. Well, there are a ton of cliches, but what isn't cliched at this point? Otherwise, TV Tropes [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FridgeBrilliance] wouldn't exist.
Nup not kidding, in fact most game story's are rubbish. Before I played games like Final Fantasy and Golden Sun I had fans telling me the story's are the best but there just as crap and pointless as any other game.

One thing that really stops me from playing anymore RPG games are the rediculously long boring converstations of repeating crap thats hardly important! Even if it is important it's still sucks how I have to press one button so many times to skip everything. I remember in FF7 (one of the really popular RPG's) I was pressing the one button for 10 God damn minutes to make the convo go faster, not playing another FF game because of that.

Onyx Oblivion said:
2. Turn based combat:

In recent years, JRPGs have tried to get away from that, but as an example of how to make turn based combat feel fast-paced, see Grandia...Where you and the enemy can cancel each other's turns by disrupting one another, and different moves took longer to execute, plus you had to move to the enemy to attack (the game automatically moves you towards your target).

Examples of turn based combat in recent years from big name releases: Blue Dragon, Lost Odyssey, Persona. That's it. They're really trying to get away from it, with real time battles that you can pause to give orders when you want to.
Well actually that was one of my big beefs with RPG games as well because it does get annoying selecting targets over and over again after they attack you, but like you said, not all of them do it exactly like that.

Another thing with the game play that shits me is critical hits and missing, I know in a way it makes it more interesting but it really does put luck into the game, as Yahtzee already said "as soon as you put chance into a game the strategy goes right out the fucking window". Are there any with out the chance?

Also potions, I got sick of them after my 10th RPG, I hate taking up a turn healing one of my dudes, maybe when I have more than 4 guys on my team it's alright but usually when your starting off I have one taking up his turn to heal the other guy and that gets annoying after time as well.

Onyx Oblivion said:
1. Female looking men:

That's only mostly in Square Enix games. I'm sick of people thinking that all JRPGs are Square Enix games.
Your definitely right about this one but for the JRPG's that do have girly looking men or stupid looking punks, I find it very difficult to just go a long with it, they disturb me with their retarded looks.

Don't get me wrong though, I don't hate any genre but I do have some issues with some RPG's. I may not be the target audience your trying to discuss with but those are some arguments the haters have with the genre.
 

TotallyFake

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Bobzer77 said:
Just as you say now, just because a JRPG contains elements that define an RPG game, they should not instantly be deemed an RPG.

Back OT, do you agree that if a JRPG contained elements of true RPG's like choices that are more than roundabouts which lead you to make the decision the game wants you to make and true freedom that allows you to play the game in a myriad of different ways would it not be much better?
"True" rpgs? That's somewhat elitist. The breakdown is fairly simple: RPGs have one or both of the following:
1) Role-playing. The ability to control the character and make choices that affect the story
2)Numerical stat-based combat derived from Pen and Paper RPGS.

JRPGs like Final Fantasy fall firmly under category 2. Dragon Age has both. Deus Ex being an FPS/RPG hybrid has category 1 with perhaps a smidge of category 2.

Why do Bioshock/MW2 not count? The same reason Mass Effect is a shooter - they only borrow small elements, it's not a focus. In jRPGs, it IS a focus.
 

LeonLethality

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Onyx Oblivion said:
. Female looking men:

That's only mostly in Square Enix games. I'm sick of people thinking that all JRPGs are Square Enix games.
This is only true with games where the characters are designed by Tetsuya Nomura not when they are designed by Yoshitaka Amano.

Tetsuya became the head character designer for the games FFVII and up (are those not the FF games with all the accusations of androgynous looking characters?) all the characters before were easily distinguishable.

But I must agree I am annoyed with people who hate on JRPGs for no good reason. another point you make when people say "They are all the same" are most first person shooters these days all the same? the people I notice hating on JRPGs the most are huge FPS fans (also WRPG fans but they usually criticize lack of choice and the combat style of JRPGs)

I could go on but like you say: we cannot convert them only kill them.
 

fletch_talon

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Nov 6, 2008
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Bobzer77 said:
Just as you say now, just because a JRPG contains elements that define an RPG game, they should not instantly be deemed an RPG.
As I said, JRPGs are defined by the leveling system (ie. that which defines what is or isn't an RPG). It makes no sense to call Final Fantasy anything but an RPG because without levels, stats, equipment and spells to customise, it wouldn't be the same game, in fact the gameplay would be incredibly limited and boring.

Mario Golf for the GBA on the other hand, without a leveling system it still would have functioned as a golf game (I wouldn't have found it nearly as fun though) much as any shooter doesn't lose its purpose just by lacking stats.

Back OT, do you agree that if a JRPG contained elements of true RPG's like choices that are more than roundabouts which lead you to make the decision the game wants you to make and true freedom that allows you to play the game in a myriad of different ways would it not be much better?
Certainly, moral choices, non linear story, free roaming travel. Those are all great and fun aspects of games, but not all games need them. Some stories can't be told as well without a linear path to follow. Freedoms great in games, and I want to see more of it, but as with most things in life, you can have too much of it.
 

DarkSaber

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Klepa said:
nobody will play an RPG where they don't like their own character. Just like nobody will watch a movie where there isn't a single person you can relate to.
Hence a lot of people don't like JRPGs. I found the characters in Star Wars Final Fantasy XII TOO annoying and stopped playing less than a quarter of the way through the game. Not to mention it was a game that DEFINITELY fits into the "lame story" category. Which is quite an achievement when you are ripping off A New Hope.
 

Assassin Xaero

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Ok, maybe someone can explain this to me, but I never understood what the big deal was about huge swords? People say JRPG's all have swords that are as big as the people are... and? Is it unrealistic, yeah, but Halo is realistic? A game where you have a sword with an ammo limit. Personally, I prefer JRPGs or FPS/RPGs (when it comes to RPGs).

Wait... pokemon is a role playing game, and it is made by the Japanese, so isn't it technically a JRPG?
 

Assassin Xaero

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Klepa said:
Just like nobody will watch a movie where there isn't a single person you can relate to.
Where the hell did you get this from? I watch movies all the time and don't relate to any single person in it. Actually, only person in a movie that I feel like I actually related to was the guy from Zombieland, being antisocial, barely any friends, don't get along with family much, etc. Then there is Death Race. A movie with a bunch of convicts, violence, and shit blowing up. Who cares if you related to anyone or not, there is shit blowing up, and it is entertaining.
 

almostgold

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I don't like them because:
1) turn-based combat. I know you said that the genre is trying to get away from this. If I find a game that delivers on that, I may try it. But regardless, almost all JRPG's ever made had turnbased combat. You can't really expect people to enjoy a genre based on changes made to it in the last year.
2) The story-line. Again, you said this was 'sweeping'. But the plot always seems stuck so far up its own ass, you know? I understand their grand stories and all, but I just can't get into them (sidenote: I did enjoy the premise of Lost Oddysey though. Neverplayed it becuse of the turnbased thing, but read the plot synopsis on wikipedia. Thanks wikipedia!)
3) The art work. Just not a fan of Japanese style artwork. Thats just an opinion, no facts to back it up

So those are just my reasons. I understand its a legitimate genre, and a lot of people like it. And I understand that. So basically just understand that on the flip side, a lot of people don't like them.
 

dietpeachsnapple

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I don't really play JRPGs. I have, however, seen the penchant against them as a genre. Whenever I DO get around to playing them, I shall hope that I can approach them with an open mind.
 

Et3rnalLegend64

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Assassin Xaero said:
Ok, maybe someone can explain this to me, but I never understood what the big deal was about huge swords? People say JRPG's all have swords that are as big as the people are... and? Is it unrealistic, yeah, but Halo is realistic? A game where you have a sword with an ammo limit. Personally, I prefer JRPGs or FPS/RPGs (when it comes to RPGs).

Wait... pokemon is a role playing game, and it is made by the Japanese, so isn't it technically a JRPG?
Yes, Pokemon is technically a JRPG, and it's awesome.

About the BFS issue, I would go out on a limb and say that Cloud's Buster Sword popularized it. And Square took a liking to the idea. The newer games didn't have too many weapons that were quite as gargantuan, but some were still big (Auron's weapons could rival Cloud's, and some of the bigger Keyblades too). Still, not all JRPG's have characters that wield a BFS on principle. On the other hand, some other genres do (Nightmare and Siegfried anyone? And Dante. And Ryu Hayabusa at times. Oh, and Kratos)
 

Fightgarr

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Dec 3, 2008
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Baby Tea said:
I have never seen a good story in a JRPG.
Sorry, maybe I've played the wrong ones, but choice has nothing to do with it. It's just cliche after cliche and always with the bad dialog. The JRPG I liked the most in terms of gameplay, Eternal Sonata, had the worst story. It was so pretentious, and so flat out awful that I skipped every cutscene after watching the first few, hoping it would turn out better.
It didn't.
You bring up an unfortunate point. The ratio of good to bad storytelling in JRPGs is something they've struggled with for a long time. On the other hand, take any game genre and you're bound to see awful stories left and right. I wouldn't say that the ratio is exclusive to JRPGs.

I'm not aware of a huge amount of JRPGs with stories I found all that compelling, but if you ever get a chance to check out the original Final Fantasy Tactics on PSOne (they also remade it for PSP under the title The War of the Lions), it has what I would consider one of the best examples of storytelling done right in a JRPG.
 

Onyx Oblivion

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Sep 9, 2008
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hURR dURR dERP said:
I also find it suspect that you mention several turn-based games but no real-time ones.
I was pointing out how few there are, actually. Those were the only pure turn based major JRPG releases in the past few years. That's why I list them as an example. There are a few more, but those are the only major titles.

Caliostro said:
Onyx Oblivion said:
It's about the game, not the genre.
Let me stop you right here.
*snip*
Actually, that statement was meant to try and stop the widespread ignorant hate of the entire genre. Because some people on this site just tried one JRPG, like say...Final Fantasy 7. They hated it, then they go on to hate the entire genre.
 

DeathWyrmNexus

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Hate Jrpgs but the two games that have my longest playtimes ever were Jrpgs. The ones that are good are really good, the rest invokes a gag response. Story is a big thing for me and Jrpgs seem to lack a certain set of factors that I like. Subtly and Nuance, everything is huge, the issue is huge, the way you fight it is huge, your hair is huge, and your gender is questionable.

I like big stories with big consequences but too much of a good thing gets ridiculous so I just start hating it. Disgaea 1&2 saw a huge number of my hours because of how you could customize things and the story was basically a parody of Jrpg plots. It was hugely but absurdly so. The turn based combat had a chess feeling to it, making you plan your attacks and using more than just tap guy in head over there. Had to take range, element, stats, everything into account before confirming the attack.

Vagrant Story had a quirky mystery to it, just enough to make it tolerable. I kept playing it because I am an item making whore and wanted a full Damascus set of everything. Never reached my goal because of all the farming involved and my memory card was stolen without over a thousand hours sunk into it. I spit on his ancestors and hope I am granted the chance to piss on his grave...

But... There is something to notice about the two Jrpgs that kept me playing. Choice, options, customization, making the character mine. Granted, Vagrant Story was a matter of equipment creation whoring and nothing else for me but Disgaea 1&2 were pure gold for me. I almost never touched the main characters.

It is what appeals to me in WRpgs. I can make a character totally mine and the story lacks what feels to be Spectacle for the sake of Spectacle. I like a good spectacle as much as the next guy but eventually seeing something like Eden in every battle or over the top action as a normal yawn fight loses punch.

The spectacle for spectacle part is what will be keeping me undecided about Bayonetta though I am fully aware it is more of a DMC rip than anything else.

Also, while I am a whore for min/maxing in stats, I prefer the idea of Roleplaying as opposed to Rollplaying. Sure, let stats be a functional part of it but have some creativity in the way things work out.

/babble rant