To all the Europeans and Aussie's on this forum...

[Goatlemon]

sirdapfrey I understand how you feel. The reason I posted in this thread, and joined this site in fact, is because it felt to me a certain poster was insulting Australia and making up random crap about my country. After I wrote a long post detailing why I thought he was wrong, addressing his points one by one, and looking up numerous sources I only received a single line in reply.

That's when I decided that it wasn't worth debating him properly.

Just ignore the mindless haters and focus on those who can actually string together a coherent argument. If someone does say something so stupid that you can't let it go then just provide the proof to shoot down their assumption and show the smart people the truth.

Or you could just sit around making void jokes. For example:

scumofsociety, I void your ability to declare me void. And stop voiding puppies! Poor little things. If you really need to void something for breakfast then void some bunnies. There's one in my neighbour's yard who wont stop bashing his cage all night, so void him.

 

[Zykon TheLich]

scumofsociety, I void your ability to declare me void. And stop voiding puppies! Poor little things. If you really need to void something for breakfast then void some bunnies. There's one in my neighbour's yard who wont stop bashing his cage all night, so void him.

I'll void that little fucker good an' proper. I didn't declare you void, you simply are, nothing you or I can do about it squire.

Apologies to all for irrelevant twattery. In my defence I have made points that are relevant to the topic.

 

[sirdapfrey]

I'm used to America being everyone's punching bag. I can deal with that because I am a rational adult and I love my country. But I am sick and tired of peoples' assumptions that I and everyone else here is "a gun-toting, foreign-hating, redneck, etc..." Why don't some of you do a little research before bashing America for its gun ownership. I don't know who it was said "every household in America has a gun in it," or something to that effect. Really? That's news to me. Could you maybe come to my house and find a gun because I can't find one. And neither can dozens of other Americans I can name of the top of my head.

It doesn't stop someone else who has legal possession of a firearm coming into your house and killing everyone in it.

You can talk about freedom all you want but very few people have the temperance, responsibility and empathy to be given the power of life and death over someone else.

Forgive me but I don't get what point you're making.

Also, I don't believe I mentioned anything about "freedom."

And the power of life and death over someone else isn't the exclusive province of people in possession of guns. I could technically have the power of life and death with my car or a knife or a blunt object or a rope or...

 

[Vortigar]

Rads are your friend:
It's common practice (in Holland at least) to have 'deactivated' firearms as decorations btw. You reacted as if it something very weird to do. Well, not common, because people rarely want a gun as an ornament, but if you do that's the way it's done here. You see mostly antique weapons going around like this, flintlocks, muskets and the like (sometimes passed down through the family).

And that voided staple of your is just plain obnoxious btw.

Back to the main topic:
Galatea's argument above is really the only one you're going to get and the only one you need. Guns are simply too dangerous to be available to a broad public, even in some kind of controlled structure. I said in an earlier post in this thread that most Americans simply do not understand the distaste for weapons the rest of the Western world has. The mere fact that you're asking us to validate the way we look at it is proof of that. The question in your mind is: "Why shouldn't I be allowed to have guns". The basic question in our heads is: "Why should anyone be allowed to have guns".

Now this is my take on the whole thing, why we look at guns so differently, I'm not a trained historian or anthropologist but I do make it a hobby of mine to analyse anything and everything. I think this has to do with war and how much Europe has seen of it. Over the ages this has bred a natural dislike for weapons into each and every one of us. Europe was in a constant state of war and/or international military tension for over 2000 years ending with WWII. Every little village has some kind of war story attached to it, if not several, little memorials of various conflicts and heroes and victims are everywhere. At the end of the horrors of WWII we all said "never again" and did away with it all.

America on the other hand has never been invaded by a foreign power. The only wars ever fought inside its borders is a single attack on a Hawaiian island far away from the beds of most of you, and two wars you started yourself (the independence conflict and the civil war). No offense to those who lost their lives, but I reckon this is also why you reacted so extremely violently to the 9/11 attacks, it was the first time in history that America was attacked by a foreign element on the main land. And the reactions that incident still incites in Americans, that same sentiment that led you seeking revenge, smeared out over 2000 years of war, again and again, led us to finally put away our guns.

I tend to think that it took all that time for us to learn our lesson and see war as an inherently bad thing, no matter the cause. America, with a mere five centuries of history has yet to learn the lessons ingrained into the European mass conscious and so you praise and adore weapons and patriotism and the honour of dying for your country. The general European citizen simply prefers no one die at all. And guns, above all else, represent war and death, they are a tangible link to that which we want never to happen to anyone again and thus distasteful ('evil' if you will) by default.

 

[Cahlee]

Nope, Nope and dear GOD no! I've made my point on many similar threads. Guns are bad.

 

[Wicky_42]

Ok, so no idea what happened to the topic over the last couple of pages, heh. Here's my 2 pence on topic:

If it was ever considered to let people own firearms in the UK or EU generally, then I would like to see compulsory military service being a requirement first. You should be forced to learn how to use them properly, and to learn the discipline to know when to use them before being allowed to own a gun. There's no other substitute for it, and it's the only way I could see it being justified.

The initial reason for the US to allow gun ownership (If I remember correctly) was so the citizen could defend his land during the hard times when the country was less that civilised and banditry was common out in the large rural areas, so the need for self defence in remote, isolated locations necessitated the ownership of fire arms. The second reason was to defend against the government, to prevent the government becoming too powerful and oppressive.

If I am right on those two points, then the first one is now all but irrelevant, both in the USA and elsewhere, where we have trained professionals to deal with crime (the police), and we have a much higher population density and more efficient infrastructure, allowing more centralised, faster responding policing. The issue of government oppression, however, is one point that could theoretically exist, but then again most people would prefer to rely on democracy to solve political problems, not guns.

As to defending your home against a robber or whoever, I don't think that murdering someone should be justified unless they are intending to attack you, cause you bodily harm, rape your loved ones, be generally psychopathic etc and it really is a case of you or them. Sure, hit them with a bat, break a limb or whatever - they're breaking in to steal your shit, they've got it coming. But, in a country that condemns capital punishment by the state, you cannot justify allowing citizens to sentence each other to death in on the spot decisions. Just not right, not morally justifiable.

Of course, in the modern world, there are more threats than merely human ones - in the case of a zombie uprising or low level alien invasion, I would sure rest easier knowing that at least someone nearby owned a rifle or some such. The shear fact that the only reason I would condone the ownership of firearms is in the even of a sci-fi catastrophe should tell you something here...

 

[sirdapfrey]

sirdapfrey I understand how you feel. The reason I posted in this thread, and joined this site in fact, is because it felt to me a certain poster was insulting Australia and making up random crap about my country. After I wrote a long post detailing why I thought he was wrong, addressing his points one by one, and looking up numerous sources I only received a single line in reply.

That's when I decided that it wasn't worth debating him properly.

Just ignore the mindless haters and focus on those who can actually string together a coherent argument. If someone does say something so stupid that you can't let it go then just provide the proof to shoot down their assumption and show the smart people the truth.

quote]

I know. I've just held back for so long through so many threads about similar subjects that degenerate into uninformed America bashing.

*SIGH*

But it won't happen again, at least not for another month or so, when something else invokes my ire. And I much prefer debating on a forum than my American instinct to shoot whoever is pissing me off (sorry, had to get in that last one I'm really done now.

 

[sirdapfrey]

Rads are your friend:
It's common practice (in Holland at least) to have 'deactivated' firearms as decorations btw. You reacted as if it something very weird to do. Well, not common, because people rarely want a gun as an ornament, but if you do that's the way it's done here. You see mostly antique weapons going around like this, flintlocks, muskets and the like (sometimes passed down through the family).

And that voided staple of your is just plain obnoxious btw.

Back to the main topic:
Galatea's argument above is really the only one you're going to get and the only one you need. Guns are simply too dangerous to be available to a broad public, even in some kind of controlled structure. I said in an earlier post in this thread that most Americans simply do not understand the distaste for weapons the rest of the Western world has. The mere fact that you're asking us to validate the way we look at it is proof of that. The question in your mind is: "Why shouldn't I be allowed to have guns". The basic question in our heads is: "Why should anyone be allowed to have guns".

Now this is my take on the whole thing, why we look at guns so differently, I'm not a trained historian or anthropologist but I do make it a hobby of mine to analyse anything and everything. I think this has to do with war and how much Europe has seen of it. Over the ages this has bred a natural dislike for weapons into each and every one of us. Europe was in a constant state of war and/or international military tension for over 2000 years ending with WWII. Every little village has some kind of war story attached to it, if not several, little memorials of various conflicts and heroes and victims are everywhere. At the end of the horrors of WWII we all said "never again" and did away with it all.

America on the other hand has never been invaded by a foreign power. The only wars ever fought inside its borders is a single attack on a Hawaiian island far away from the beds of most of you, and two wars you started yourself (the independence conflict and the civil war). No offense to those who lost their lives, but I reckon this is also why you reacted so extremely violently to the 9/11 attacks, it was the first time in history that America was attacked by a foreign element on the main land. And the reactions that incident still incites in Americans, that same sentiment that led you seeking revenge, smeared out over 2000 years of war, again and again, led us to finally put away our guns.

I tend to think that it took all that time for us to learn our lesson and see war as an inherently bad thing, no matter the cause. America, with a mere five centuries of history has yet to learn the lessons ingrained into the European mass conscious and so you praise and adore weapons and patriotism and the honour of dying for your country. The general European citizen simply prefers no one die at all. And guns, above all else, represent war and death, they are a tangible link to that which we want never to happen to anyone again and thus distasteful ('evil' if you will) by default.

Apparently you did not understand the point I was making. Do not address me in your post with a rebuttal that does not rebutt my point.

EDIT: When I read and qouted your post it had me specifically mentioned (rads are your friend & sirdapfrey)and then when I finished posting this, my name was gone. So I respectfully withdraw this response to you

 

[Ronwue]

Most people are morons. And you want them to have guns?

 

[ThePlasmatizer]

I'm used to America being everyone's punching bag. I can deal with that because I am a rational adult and I love my country. But I am sick and tired of peoples' assumptions that I and everyone else here is "a gun-toting, foreign-hating, redneck, etc..." Why don't some of you do a little research before bashing America for its gun ownership. I don't know who it was said "every household in America has a gun in it," or something to that effect. Really? That's news to me. Could you maybe come to my house and find a gun because I can't find one. And neither can dozens of other Americans I can name of the top of my head.

It doesn't stop someone else who has legal possession of a firearm coming into your house and killing everyone in it.

You can talk about freedom all you want but very few people have the temperance, responsibility and empathy to be given the power of life and death over someone else.

Forgive me but I don't get what point you're making.

Also, I don't believe I mentioned anything about "freedom."

And the power of life and death over someone else isn't the exclusive province of people in possession of guns. I could technically have the power of life and death with my car or a knife or a blunt object or a rope or...

I'm saying you may not own one but that doesn't mean someone else who's irresponisible doesn't as well. You make it seem like nobody has a gun and nobody would carry it around irresponsibly. You also said all your friends don't own a gun but that doesn't mean they don't know where they can get one from.

You didn't mention freedom but what I meant by it is that "everyone" isn't you and your friends.

I'll concede the last point to you when you explain how a knife, car or blunt object can be anywhere near as effective at killing people than a gun can. Oh! also the examples you mentioned are also a lot easier to disarm than a gun as well.

 

[Durgiun]

An armed society is a polite society.
Guns for everyone!

 

[_Serendipity_]

Apparently you did not understand the point I was making. Do not address me in your post with a rebuttal that does not rebutt my point.

Umm, he didn't address that to you. I think he was just making a point in general.

Edit: Ahh, the joys of replying to points that no longer exist... oh well! Ignore this post now!

 

[sirdapfrey]

I'm used to America being everyone's punching bag. I can deal with that because I am a rational adult and I love my country. But I am sick and tired of peoples' assumptions that I and everyone else here is "a gun-toting, foreign-hating, redneck, etc..." Why don't some of you do a little research before bashing America for its gun ownership. I don't know who it was said "every household in America has a gun in it," or something to that effect. Really? That's news to me. Could you maybe come to my house and find a gun because I can't find one. And neither can dozens of other Americans I can name of the top of my head.

It doesn't stop someone else who has legal possession of a firearm coming into your house and killing everyone in it.

You can talk about freedom all you want but very few people have the temperance, responsibility and empathy to be given the power of life and death over someone else.

Forgive me but I don't get what point you're making.

Also, I don't believe I mentioned anything about "freedom."

And the power of life and death over someone else isn't the exclusive province of people in possession of guns. I could technically have the power of life and death with my car or a knife or a blunt object or a rope or...

I'm saying you may not own one but that doesn't mean someone else who's irresponisible doesn't as well. You make it seem like nobody has a gun and nobody would carry it around irresponsibly. You also said all your friends don't own a gun but that doesn't mean they don't know where they can get one from.

You didn't mention freedom but what I meant by it is that "everyone" isn't you and your friends.

I'll concede the last point to you when you explain how a knife, car or blunt object can be anywhere near as effective at killing people than a gun, the examples you mentioned are also a lot easier to disarm than a gun as well.

I never even hinted that no one has guns and no one carries them irresponsibly. That happens in EVERY country. And as far as knowing where to get one, are you telling me you don't have any idea where to obtain a gun if you wanted one? I don't buy that-you seem reasonably intelligent.

And you're right, everyone is not me and my friends, but on the same token, everyone is not gun-toting rednecks.

 

[fix-the-spade]

Do you wish you all had the legal authority to own a firearm? Or do you believe America has been completely irresponsible with it?

America has shown that alowing firearms to the general public is a bad idea almost without exception.

However, the people of Crete (officially the most heavily armed island on the planet, no really) tend to be fairly responsible with their guns.

I think attitude is more important than guns. Marketing guns as expensive toys and luxury goods isn't just stupid, it's immoral.

 

[Goatlemon]

People should be allowed to own guns no matter the consequences.
It's a matter of principle, freedom is the greatest value.

I prefer the freedom of walking down the street without being shot.

Guns on streets are different things. Since street is not your property someone can forbid you from carrying a weapon on it.

What about the freedom to buy legal heroine no matter the consequences? Or the freedom to rape children no matter the consequences? How about the freedom to torture animals no matter the consequences?

If freedom is the greatest value then surely it's a matter of principle that all of those things and more are also a matter of principle, no matter the consequences.

You have clearly no idea what I understand by freedom.
People should be free to do whatever they want as long as this doesn't hurt anybody (who doesn't want to get hurt). Raping children obviously doesn't fit because it violates the child's freedom to not be raped.
Heroine, prostitution (as long as its monitored), hell, even dueling does not hurt anyone against their will, therefore should be legal.

Right, and guns have never hurt anyone against their will.

You said people should be able to own guns no matter the consequences. You then go on to say that people should be free to do what they want as long as it doesn't hurt anybody against their will.

Do you see the contradiction between the two bolded parts? The consequences of people owning guns is that people get hurt or killed by them against their will, which of course goes against your doesn't hurt anyone against their will clause in your freedom statement.

How can one method of hurting people against their will be outlawed while another isn't?

EDIT: Wait, he took that post down? I really should learn to wait at least five minutes before responding to posts to allow for deletions and edits.

 

[ThePlasmatizer]

I never even hinted that no one has guns and no one carries them irresponsibly. That happens in EVERY country. And as far as knowing where to get one, are you telling me you don't have any idea where to obtain a gun if you wanted one? I don't buy that-you seem reasonably intelligent.

And you're right, everyone is not me and my friends, but on the same token, everyone is not gun-toting rednecks.

It does happen in EVERY country but it's a lot more difficult to get them and carry them around when they are illegal.

Unfortunately no matter how many responsible people you have it only takes one irresponsible person to cause havoc.

 

[darkless]

Your completely irresponsible with it you hand out guns like candy some people have enough guns to start world war 3 the screening process should be alot more rigorous.

but i know people who have concealed carry licenses (but one is a PI and he other two are garda so i guess that makes sense) here in Ireland and hunting rifles are legal if you have a license as well.

 

[meece]

I *personally* feel no need to own a gun.

If it's for self defence a tazer is probably better because I don't need to worry about where I hit them and if you shoot even a criminal with justification you're probably going get in trouble. Unlike a tazer where it's a "reasonable safety precaution since it's non-lethal" (which isn't saying a gun isn't non-lethal but a tazer doesn't have the capibilities to BE lethal...unless you really try hard anyway)

But then again I don't feel the need to own a tazer either.

Hell the only reason I would even contemplated buying a gun is if I was planning on taking up shooting as a sport....and I don't intend too....