To Only Examine Inaccurate Portrayals of Females And Not Males Is Sexist

[Jangles]

Because the female gender were getting, to put it mildly, a bad bargain over essentially the entirety of human history. Nobody is arguing that women are being opressed via the medium of videogames. People are saying that videogames often still reinforce societal gender roles.

It's not that videogames don't do this to men as well, but seeing as we're still very much the dominant gender in society, I think we can afford to concentrate on the appropriate depiction of females before we get all offended that women are getting something first for a change.

Equality for all, not just women.

 

[Jangles]

Commander Shephard is kind of a bad example don't you think? He's a player-created character, he can be as ugly or plain looking as you like. Also he's a military guy, so it would be pretty silly for him to be unfit.

Other than that though, I mostly agree. However, I think what irks women is that while men are only represented a certain way, they are represented in a much more positive way.

The men are always strong and powerful, generally handsome too but that isn't usually the main point. They normally have many good qualities in both personality and appearance, far more than the average person in real life.

Women always have big breasts.

What does that seem to say about gamers' opinions of women and men?

Spoiler

Nothing good.

(Do note I'm not a woman or a feminist, so I could be wrong about this. It's just something I've noticed)

i understand and appreciate your level headed rebuttle.

However, just because gamers like to see a sexy woman in a game does not mean they think of women as mere objects.

 

[Jangles]

disregard this un-deleteable quote

 

[Kpt._Rob]

The reason is because female characters in game are given abnormal amounts of sex appeal to use as a cynical ploy to improve sales, but that's not why male characters are portrayed this way. Male characters are generally designed to appeal to a masculine power fantasy.

To use the most obvious example, take the case of Duke Nukem (and please don't bother to point it out if you feel DN is supposed to be a parody or anything else like that, even if it is a parody, it's a parody of industry norms.) The design of female characters in the game is obvious, to create sex appeal to draw in male customers. But the design of Duke is obviously not meant to be sexually appealing to female customers to increase sales (he is after all a disgusting sexist pig). Duke is an extremely immature masculine power fantasy, a guy with a lot of strength who gets lots of women. "Perfect" male characters are still being used to sell games to men!

The idea that men are being portrayed as sexual objects in games is patently ridiculous. This argument is reactionist nonsense meant to help people rationalize to themselves why they shouldn't be bothered by the pixilated tities they enjoy watching so much. Ever wonder why it's made almost exclusively by men?

Everything you are saying is the same point = pander to the crowd that makes the most money. Period. it isn't sexist.

You know who just so happens to be really devoted to rationalizing and defending this kind of shit? I don't really need to say it, do I?

It is sexist. The core complaint here is that games are being developed almost exclusively for men. This particular argument is about how female characters are designed to appeal to men, and the ridiculous counter-argument made here was that male characters are also designed with a lot of sex appeal. But the reason for which female characters and male characters are designed with a lot of sex appeal is the same The reason is that these things have appeal to a male audience, in one case because it gives them a woody, and in the other because they like having the chance to live out a power fantasy.

The idea that you would say that they're "pandering to the crowd that makes the most money" makes your neutrality on this issue kind of questionable. While there may be some gender inequality in compensation for work (another issue of sexism that people who defend this kind of shit love to forget), the fact is that by designing games almost exclusively for a male audience these companies are ignoring a sizable portion of the market. Even if the reason they give might happen to be related to the market, there are sexist undertones beneath that, and there is serious gender inequality in the way that characters in videogames are portrayed.

 

[tlozoot]

Because the female gender were getting, to put it mildly, a bad bargain over essentially the entirety of human history. Nobody is arguing that women are being opressed via the medium of videogames. People are saying that videogames often still reinforce societal gender roles.

It's not that videogames don't do this to men as well, but seeing as we're still very much the dominant gender in society, I think we can afford to concentrate on the appropriate depiction of females before we get all offended that women are getting something first for a change.

Equality for all, not just women.

How nice of you to brush me of with a sound-byte.

Equality for all, yes, but if women have a history of being discriminated against it makes sense that people today are concerned with this discrimination being latent in the media. That doesn't make them sexist, as you suggest in your topic title. These people aren't saying that only women are discriminated against. They're not saying that men are not portrayed wrongly in the media. They're just more concerned with the female presentation because it's potentially more damaging. That isn't sexist.

 

[DEAD34345]

Commander Shephard is kind of a bad example don't you think? He's a player-created character, he can be as ugly or plain looking as you like. Also he's a military guy, so it would be pretty silly for him to be unfit.

Other than that though, I mostly agree. However, I think what irks women is that while men are only represented a certain way, they are represented in a much more positive way.

The men are always strong and powerful, generally handsome too but that isn't usually the main point. They normally have many good qualities in both personality and appearance, far more than the average person in real life.

Women always have big breasts.

What does that seem to say about gamers' opinions of women and men?

Spoiler

Nothing good.

(Do note I'm not a woman or a feminist, so I could be wrong about this. It's just something I've noticed)

i understand and appreciate your level headed rebuttle.

However, just because gamers like to see a sexy woman in a game does not mean they think of women as mere objects.

Oh, don't misunderstand me, I don't think most gamers think of women like that. What I mean is that people are very likely to think we do, considering the kind of representation women get in our games. This kind of representation makes us as a demographic look pretty bad, whether what it seems to indicate is the truth or not.

It also makes me think that many developers think we think of women as objects, or else why would they make characters like that?
(Sorry for that extremely poorly worded sentence, it's quite late where I am and I can't think of another way to put it right now)

 

[Jangles]

Because the female gender were getting, to put it mildly, a bad bargain over essentially the entirety of human history. Nobody is arguing that women are being opressed via the medium of videogames. People are saying that videogames often still reinforce societal gender roles.

It's not that videogames don't do this to men as well, but seeing as we're still very much the dominant gender in society, I think we can afford to concentrate on the appropriate depiction of females before we get all offended that women are getting something first for a change.

Equality for all, not just women.

How nice of you to brush me of with a sound-byte.

Equality for all, yes, but if women have a history of being discriminated against it makes sense that people today are concerned with this discrimination being latent in the media. That doesn't make them sexist, as you suggest in your topic title. These people aren't saying that only women are discriminated against. They're not saying that men are not portrayed wrongly in the media. They're just more concerned with the female presentation because it's potentially more damaging. That isn't sexist.

So if I am more concerned about how White, western males have it these days than women..doesnt that make me sexist? Being more concerned about how one sex is treated is sexist. If you will stand up for equal representation of one sex but not another, that is sexist.

If this were 60 years ago, then the portrayal of women in (video games if they had them) would be the hard question to ask. But, in 2011, it is the easy, easy, easy, question to ask. Asking how males are getting hurt from this is the hard question to ask, becuase there are very few minds open to it. (like you refusing to acknowledge that treating people different is ok, when talking about equality)


*** For the haters ***

I am not a reactionary, I am completely open to equal rights, pay, status, ect of women, the LGBT community, etc. If I felt comfortable revealing my actual credentials you would realize that.

 

[Jangles]

Commander Shephard is kind of a bad example don't you think? He's a player-created character, he can be as ugly or plain looking as you like. Also he's a military guy, so it would be pretty silly for him to be unfit.

Other than that though, I mostly agree. However, I think what irks women is that while men are only represented a certain way, they are represented in a much more positive way.

The men are always strong and powerful, generally handsome too but that isn't usually the main point. They normally have many good qualities in both personality and appearance, far more than the average person in real life.

Women always have big breasts.

What does that seem to say about gamers' opinions of women and men?

Spoiler

Nothing good.

(Do note I'm not a woman or a feminist, so I could be wrong about this. It's just something I've noticed)

i understand and appreciate your level headed rebuttle.

However, just because gamers like to see a sexy woman in a game does not mean they think of women as mere objects.

Oh, don't misunderstand me, I don't think most gamers think of women like that. What I mean is that people are very likely to think we do, considering the kind of representation women get in our games. This kind of representation makes us as a demographic look pretty bad, whether what it seems to indicate is the truth or not.

It also makes me think that many developers think we think of women as objects, or else why would they make characters like that?
(Sorry for that extremely poorly worded sentence, it's quite late where I am and I can't think of another way to put it right now)

It does not matter what people think we are like, it matters what you are actually like.

American example: George Washington was a "traitor" before he was a "hero"
Indian Example: Ghandi was a no good, disrespectful peasant before he was a rights activist.
Chinese Example: The kid who got run over by the tank was a rebel before he was a human rights hero
Nazi Example: Hitler was the people's hero before we was humanity's worst nightmare..

 

[Jangles]

The reason is because female characters in game are given abnormal amounts of sex appeal to use as a cynical ploy to improve sales, but that's not why male characters are portrayed this way. Male characters are generally designed to appeal to a masculine power fantasy.

To use the most obvious example, take the case of Duke Nukem (and please don't bother to point it out if you feel DN is supposed to be a parody or anything else like that, even if it is a parody, it's a parody of industry norms.) The design of female characters in the game is obvious, to create sex appeal to draw in male customers. But the design of Duke is obviously not meant to be sexually appealing to female customers to increase sales (he is after all a disgusting sexist pig). Duke is an extremely immature masculine power fantasy, a guy with a lot of strength who gets lots of women. "Perfect" male characters are still being used to sell games to men!

The idea that men are being portrayed as sexual objects in games is patently ridiculous. This argument is reactionist nonsense meant to help people rationalize to themselves why they shouldn't be bothered by the pixilated tities they enjoy watching so much. Ever wonder why it's made almost exclusively by men?

Everything you are saying is the same point = pander to the crowd that makes the most money. Period. it isn't sexist.

You know who just so happens to be really devoted to rationalizing and defending this kind of shit? I don't really need to say it, do I?

It is sexist. The core complaint here is that games are being developed almost exclusively for men. This particular argument is about how female characters are designed to appeal to men, and the ridiculous counter-argument made here was that male characters are also designed with a lot of sex appeal. But the reason for which female characters and male characters are designed with a lot of sex appeal is the same The reason is that these things have appeal to a male audience, in one case because it gives them a woody, and in the other because they like having the chance to live out a power fantasy.

The idea that you would say that they're "pandering to the crowd that makes the most money" makes your neutrality on this issue kind of questionable. While there may be some gender inequality in compensation for work (another issue of sexism that people who defend this kind of shit love to forget), the fact is that by designing games almost exclusively for a male audience these companies are ignoring a sizable portion of the market. Even if the reason they give might happen to be related to the market, there are sexist undertones beneath that, and there is serious gender inequality in the way that characters in videogames are portrayed.

What you like to forget is that video games are a luxury item. COMPLETE LUXURY ITEM

1. In no way does one need to play or watch video games to have a full and good life.
2. In no way is anyone forced to play video games (forget gold farmers)
3. We are not talking about education, jobs, or anything vital to society.

As soon as I bring this argument to food, education, healthcare, water, workplaces, then you call me whatever you want. When I bring this argument to something that is not easily lived without, call me sexist, reactionary, or whatever you want. But I guarantee you I wont.

If girls don't like it, don't play them. If you are a sizable portion of the industry, the industry will notice and adjust accordingly. It's capitalism at it's finest.

And there is inequality both ways that characters of both genders are being represented.

 

[Jangles]

Let me share with you a story..

In B.C. Canada, a "equal rights group" brought a "men's only lounge" to court for being sexist. Because women were not allowed in. All the examples you are using were applied to the case. Unfortuantely, it faded from the news and the result wasn't heard.

Boy Scouts of Canada allows girls to join.Why? becuase excluding females was argued to be sexist.

Girl Guides of Canada does not allow males to join. Why? Isn't that sexist too? Or do you argue that "people like me" think that if boy scouts is co-ed, shouldn't girl guides be as well?

Or are you going to keep calling me a horrible person?

 

[Pearwood]

*READ THE ENTIRE COMMENT BEFORE QUOTING ME

To be honest I don't think there's any need to start complaining until most games have a camera that focuses exclusively on the thong-clad arse of the male protagonist and judging by how much bitching Dragon Age 2 got just because a guy was flirting I doubt we'll be seeing that for a while.

 

[Kimarous]

I'm not really getting the discussion value here. Excusing the various rebuttals/justifications people have presented, you more or less state that inequality is everywhere and that all media focus on the most profitable market. Understandable position and I agree with it, but isn't that just how the world is? Aside from reminding people about the hypocrisy of some arguments, what applications does this knowledge have? It doesn't seem like a proposal to change anything, so for those of us who are just going "Yeah, I follow", what are we to take from this?

 

[DEAD34345]

It does not matter what people think we are like, it matters what you are actually like.

American example: George Washington was a "traitor" before he was a "hero"
Indian Example: Ghandi was a no good, disrespectful peasant before he was a rights activist.
Chinese Example: The kid who got run over by the tank was a rebel before he was a human rights hero
Nazi Example: Hitler was the people's hero before we was humanity's worst nightmare..

Sorry, but that's simply not true. If it was true then why would we be discussing this in the first place? If other's opinions on gamers do not matter, then why do you care that people "Only Examine Inaccurate Portrayals of Females And Not Males". The fact is that the public opinion of us is very important to the future of this medium, as made very clear by the recent court case on restriction of violent media to minors.

You yourself may ignore what people think about you (which is good, I think), but the opinions of others on "gamers" as a whole has great capability to influence us, and our medium.

 

[Kahunaburger]

Let me share with you a story..

In B.C. Canada, a "equal rights group" brought a "men's only lounge" to court for being sexist. Because women were not allowed in. All the examples you are using were applied to the case. Unfortuantely, it faded from the news and the result wasn't heard.

Boy Scouts of Canada allows girls to join.Why? becuase excluding females was argued to be sexist.

Girl Guides of Canada does not allow males to join. Why? Isn't that sexist too? Or do you argue that "people like me" think that if boy scouts is co-ed, shouldn't girl guides be as well?

Or are you going to keep calling me a horrible person?

Same fallacy. Addressing issue X does not mean that you also have to address issue Y at the same time. You can choose to address sexism against females, sexism against males, both, or neither in a particular discussion or legal action.

 

[Kahunaburger]

*READ THE ENTIRE COMMENT BEFORE QUOTING ME

To be honest I don't think there's any need to start complaining until most games have a camera that focuses exclusively on the thong-clad arse of the male protagonist and judging by how much bitching Dragon Age 2 got just because a guy was flirting I doubt we'll be seeing that for a while.

You mean other than MGS4?

 

[Jangles]

Let me share with you a story..

In B.C. Canada, a "equal rights group" brought a "men's only lounge" to court for being sexist. Because women were not allowed in. All the examples you are using were applied to the case. Unfortuantely, it faded from the news and the result wasn't heard.

Boy Scouts of Canada allows girls to join.Why? becuase excluding females was argued to be sexist.

Girl Guides of Canada does not allow males to join. Why? Isn't that sexist too? Or do you argue that "people like me" think that if boy scouts is co-ed, shouldn't girl guides be as well?

Or are you going to keep calling me a horrible person?

Same fallacy. Addressing issue X does not mean that you also have to address issue Y at the same time. You can choose to address sexism against females, sexism against males, both, or neither in a particular discussion or legal action.

When you are comparing to things you must look at both sides. It is kinda common sense

 

[Pearwood]

You mean other than MGS4?

I've not played it, I'm kind of interested now just to see how bad it is.

 

[Kahunaburger]

Let me share with you a story..

In B.C. Canada, a "equal rights group" brought a "men's only lounge" to court for being sexist. Because women were not allowed in. All the examples you are using were applied to the case. Unfortuantely, it faded from the news and the result wasn't heard.

Boy Scouts of Canada allows girls to join.Why? becuase excluding females was argued to be sexist.

Girl Guides of Canada does not allow males to join. Why? Isn't that sexist too? Or do you argue that "people like me" think that if boy scouts is co-ed, shouldn't girl guides be as well?

Or are you going to keep calling me a horrible person?

Same fallacy. Addressing issue X does not mean that you also have to address issue Y at the same time. You can choose to address sexism against females, sexism against males, both, or neither in a particular discussion or legal action.

When you are comparing to things you must look at both sides. It is kinda common sense

You don't have to compare sexism against women to sexism against men to address either issue. You can, but you don't have to.

 

[Jangles]

It does not matter what people think we are like, it matters what you are actually like.

American example: George Washington was a "traitor" before he was a "hero"
Indian Example: Ghandi was a no good, disrespectful peasant before he was a rights activist.
Chinese Example: The kid who got run over by the tank was a rebel before he was a human rights hero
Nazi Example: Hitler was the people's hero before we was humanity's worst nightmare..

Sorry, but that's simply not true. If it was true then why would we be discussing this in the first place? If other's opinions on gamers do not matter, then why do you care that people "Only Examine Inaccurate Portrayals of Females And Not Males". The fact is that the public opinion of us is very important to the future of this medium, as made very clear by the recent court case on restriction of violent media to minors.

You yourself may ignore what people think about you (which is good, I think), but the opinions of others on "gamers" as a whole has great capability to influence us, and our medium.

Again you are missing the point. The examples (save for Hitler) did what they thought was right despite what is being said.

People are saying that examining the male side of the issue does not matter, I am saying it does. and you are saying it doesn't because other people don't think so.

For the trolls: I am not comparing myself whatsoever to any of the examples i listed.

 

[Jamboxdotcom]

Let me share with you a story..

In B.C. Canada, a "equal rights group" brought a "men's only lounge" to court for being sexist. Because women were not allowed in. All the examples you are using were applied to the case. Unfortuantely, it faded from the news and the result wasn't heard.

Boy Scouts of Canada allows girls to join.Why? becuase excluding females was argued to be sexist.

Girl Guides of Canada does not allow males to join. Why? Isn't that sexist too? Or do you argue that "people like me" think that if boy scouts is co-ed, shouldn't girl guides be as well?

Or are you going to keep calling me a horrible person?

No... but i will say you're jumping all over the place. As a few of us have stated (but you seem to have ignored), the inaccurate portrayals of both men and women are designed to pander to men, ergo most men don't give a shit about how inaccurately we're portrayed. Male characters are largely the ideal man's man. Female characters are the ideal man's woman (or man's ideal woman).

Thus, the complaint is that while female characters are designed with a male gamer in mind, you cannot usually say that male characters are designed with the female gamer in mind. Yes, male gamers are the larger target market, but it's still at least a bit disrespectful of the female audience.