To Only Examine Inaccurate Portrayals of Females And Not Males Is Sexist

[tlozoot]

So if I am more concerned about how White, western males have it these days than women..doesnt that make me sexist?

Sexism: to discriminate against an individual or collection of individuals based on their gender.

I fail to see how being more concerned with one group over another makes you sexist. It merely makes you a specialist.

Being more concerned about how one sex is treated is sexist. If you will stand up for equal representation of one sex but not another, that is sexist.

By this logic any article, piece of writing or discussion that affords more coverage to the discussion of one sexes portrayal in the medium than the other automatically earns a baffling mark from your 'Sexism' stamp? Your confusing discussion and concern over ideals. Most people acknowledge that the sexes should be considered equal. Most people also believe that females rights are the more pressing issue. Just because someone thinks women's rights are currently the more pressing issue, and therefore more applicable for discussion, doesn't mean they don't 'stand up for equal representation' of the sexes.

If this were 60 years ago, then the portrayal of women in (video games if they had them) would be the hard question to ask. But, in 2011, it is the easy, easy, easy, question to ask. Asking how males are getting hurt from this is the hard question to ask, becuase there are very few minds open to it. (like you refusing to acknowledge that treating people different is ok, when talking about equality)

Women's rights and women as portrayed in the media may not be as clearly required as it was 60 years ago, but it still undeniably is. It's definitely valid that we need to look at both genders presentation in the media, but to say that someone - someone who supports equality between the genders - more concerned with the female representation than with the male is sexist is simply wrong.

If having to spend an absolutely parallel amount of time supporting men's rights to supporting women's rights makes me sexist under your bizarre definition of the word then go ahead and call me and 99% of gender equality activists sexist.

To put this as an analogy, you have two buckets. One is 70% full and the other is 50% full. You propose that to get them equal we should add water to them in equal amounts, at the same time. I propose adding water only to the emptier bucket until both are at an equal measure.

 

[Jangles]

Let me share with you a story..

In B.C. Canada, a "equal rights group" brought a "men's only lounge" to court for being sexist. Because women were not allowed in. All the examples you are using were applied to the case. Unfortuantely, it faded from the news and the result wasn't heard.

Boy Scouts of Canada allows girls to join.Why? becuase excluding females was argued to be sexist.

Girl Guides of Canada does not allow males to join. Why? Isn't that sexist too? Or do you argue that "people like me" think that if boy scouts is co-ed, shouldn't girl guides be as well?

Or are you going to keep calling me a horrible person?

No... but i will say you're jumping all over the place. As a few of us have stated (but you seem to have ignored), the inaccurate portrayals of both men and women are designed to pander to men, ergo most men don't give a shit about how inaccurately we're portrayed. Male characters are largely the ideal man's man. Female characters are the ideal man's woman (or man's ideal woman).

Thus, the complaint is that while female characters are designed with a male gamer in mind, you cannot usually say that male characters are designed with the female gamer in mind. Yes, male gamers are the larger target market, but it's still at least a bit disrespectful of the female audience.

I have not ignored this whatsoever. I have said clearly that video games are a complete luxury item. If video games were school textbooks then women could not easily boycott games until they have changed.

Playboy magazine is not sexist because women are not forced to look at it. Same with video games.

If they don't like it then don't buy them. If they are a massive part of the consumer base, developers will take notice and change it.

THINGS THAT ARE ABSOLUTE LUXURY ITEMS --> I.E. VIDEOGAMES, ARE REGULATED AND SUPPORTED BY WHO THEY APPEAL TO.

 

[SageRuffin]

Also, Commander Shepard is a Spectre. We're talking better than the freakin' S.A.S here.

And fatties are not allowed to join the S.A.S.

S/He's right. The more fantastical aspects aside, at least as far as the US Armed Services are concerned, you need to attain a certain body type, or at least have the endurance of someone with that certain body type.

Also, you'll notice that most women either don't care too much about women in video games being "inaccurately portrayed", or they don't care enough to get up in arms about it (I think I phrased that right). They view the various female player-characters as attractive avatars just like we men and boys do. I can't tell you how many girls I've seen dressed as Bayonetta [http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/2/20608/1238292-bayo_bayonetta_super.jpg] and her sister-in-arms of sorts Jeanne [http://images.wikia.com/bayonetta/images/5/52/Jeanne_gun.png], Kasumi [http://sadpanda.us/images/383277-IVW2ZAR.jpg] and her fellow kunochi half-sister Ayane [http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/0/238/538453-ayane__4__super.jpg], and of course "icons" like Lara Croft [http://www.filmbuffonline.com/FBOLNewsreel/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/LaraCroft.jpg], Mai Shiranui [http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-05/art/kof03-mai-shiranui.jpg], and Morrigan Aensland [http://www.creativeuncut.com/gallery-14/art/mvc3-morrigan.jpg].

I go to various cons around my area almost regularly and trust me... the girls who dress as those characters know exactly what the fuck they're doing.

 

[Jangles]

Let me share with you a story..

In B.C. Canada, a "equal rights group" brought a "men's only lounge" to court for being sexist. Because women were not allowed in. All the examples you are using were applied to the case. Unfortuantely, it faded from the news and the result wasn't heard.

Boy Scouts of Canada allows girls to join.Why? becuase excluding females was argued to be sexist.

Girl Guides of Canada does not allow males to join. Why? Isn't that sexist too? Or do you argue that "people like me" think that if boy scouts is co-ed, shouldn't girl guides be as well?

Or are you going to keep calling me a horrible person?

Same fallacy. Addressing issue X does not mean that you also have to address issue Y at the same time. You can choose to address sexism against females, sexism against males, both, or neither in a particular discussion or legal action.

When you are comparing to things you must look at both sides. It is kinda common sense

You don't have to compare sexism against women to sexism against men to address either issue. You can, but you don't have to.

how do you discuss sexism without talking about both sexes? Unless you are a fan of sentence fragments.....


Aw,golly jee! Those....oppress women!
Wow, Martha! That...just looked at you! that is sexist!

Context....

 

[cainx10a]

The reason is because female characters in game are given abnormal amounts of sex appeal to use as a cynical ploy to improve sales, but that's not why male characters are portrayed this way. Male characters are generally designed to appeal to a masculine power fantasy.

Which games are those exactly?

Did Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Jade Empire, or any other Bioware game sell really well because of the premise of being able to have inter-species sex?

Did Call of Duty, or Halo or any games that reached in the top 10 sales of the week and that involve shooting random pixelated bad guys sell because of the titties?

Did Prince of Persia: Warrior Within sell because of the hot babes in skimpy armor help sell it, or was it because it was Prince of Persia?

From Japan, did ninja gaiden sell because of that chick with huge titties, Dead or Alive, Soul Calibur, because of those chicks dressed like strippers?


Bayonetta ... a strong independent female ass-kicker ... one game where the female character is truly strong, a badass, is often viewed as depicting women in a cheap manner, but somehow Alyx is treated as a Mary Sue when she is just a support character that can somehow kick the butts of enemies ... off-screen ... but somehow send the poor doctor to do all the dirty work of saving the world.

JRPGs, now that's something I wouldn't dare touch, the female archetypes are usually 'meh' but definitely feel better than the female cast in DA2 except for Meredith ... well that is untill she somehow got a certain item, bought off-screen from a peddler in dark town. (at least, the geeky one, like Rita Mordio from Tales of Vesperia ... actually the female cast of ToV was great, even Estelle grew up on me for being such a dork).

To use the most obvious example, take the case of Duke Nukem (and please don't bother to point it out if you feel DN is supposed to be a parody or anything else like that, even if it is a parody, it's a parody of industry norms.) The design of female characters in the game is obvious, to create sex appeal to draw in male customers. But the design of Duke is obviously not meant to be sexually appealing to female customers to increase sales (he is after all a disgusting sexist pig). Duke is an extremely immature masculine power fantasy, a guy with a lot of strength who gets lots of women. "Perfect" male characters are still being used to sell games to men!

Yes, DNF is a parody, of industry norms? Bullshit, let's see, the white alpha male, his cheerleaders, look like something that's more of a parody of jocks and their herd ... or the caveman and his cavecheerleaders?. If I were to mentally query all action heroes of Duke's 'calibur', few seemed to be banging a hot babe (translation: have the time to go on a date, or visit the family of his other-half) after a good day of ass-kicking, because they are too busy preparing for the next playthrough ... of ass-kicking.


DNF is a parody. A parody! Are we not allowed to have our dirty little guilty pleasures now? Even if it was a sub-par games according to reviewers. (I love FPS, but I hate FPS with an overload of extras that do not involve, shooty shooty -big explosion- -boss fights- -wave of enemies-, as far as I can tell from the reviews, there was too much diversion and lack of features for DNF to be a decent shooter ... so I'll stick with F3ar and S8: Prejudice).

The idea that men are being portrayed as sexual objects in games is patently ridiculous. This argument is reactionist nonsense meant to help people rationalize to themselves why they shouldn't be bothered by the pixilated tities they enjoy watching so much. Ever wonder why it's made almost exclusively by men?

Maybe because males were the first to get in this field of geek/nerd-dom, the same craft they have been ostracized for, now revered because their craft allows them to make money, lots of money.

There's a solution to all of this, "oh noes, we need decent female characters!". More women joining this field of work, considering how Indie Developers are having a hell of an 'easy' time to have their product released on the market, I feel said female developers will have a great time showing us how a good female characters should be.

I am not saying, "z0mg woman, stop complaining" or "developers shouldn't, because they are males, have women in their ranks for the sole purpose of crafting a female character", but pretending that developers should instantly be able to craft good female characters out of thin air, is dickish.

Funny enough, the few movies I watched with Megan Fox and Scarlet Johansson(T1/2 and Iron Man 2) were subpar, specially when it came down to their acting or how they delivered what few lines they were given. Somehow they have legion of fans, so maybe we should ask them to kindly stop breathing, because being aesthically pleasing to men, is mysogny! We can't have that now!!!!!

Final Points: Games need to remove the concept of a static main character, and take the Mass Effect route, with a main character who, despite whether being a male or female, can operate in the game world without any hick up. As in, a game modder who wants to play as a female character in HL2, mods the game, and is still referred as "he" through-out the game.

Support female characters, definitely should be wearing the appropriate clothes/armor throughout the game, unlike those two characters (minus Tali and the blue one) in ME2.

 

[The Random One]

Just like in movies

This doesn't mean games treat female characters well. It means movies also treat female characters poorly.

In fact, the movie industry is worse. There is a place for 'ugly but friendly' actors, (see: Danny Devito) but there are no ugly actresses, at all. If they need an ugly chick for a role they pick up one of the hot girls that are the only ones that can make it as an actress and mess up their hair.

 

[DEAD34345]

Again you are missing the point. The examples (save for Hitler) did what they thought was right despite what is being said.

People are saying that examining the male side of the issue does not matter, I am saying it does. and you are saying it doesn't because other people don't think so.

For the trolls: I am not comparing myself whatsoever to any of the examples i listed.

Actually, I'm pretty sure Hitler was doing what he thought was right, despite what was being said.

Anyway, I don't think the misrepresentation of males is a problem myself (or at least not much of one) because it's not degrading to men in any way. Men are always shown as powerful, strong, smart, etc. Characters in media of any kind are usually shown far more positively than any person in real life ever would be. This isn't really an issue.

Women in games however, are given large boobs and... well... nothing else really. It's sometimes like developers see women not as characters, but simply as the gateway through which breasts can be brought into the game. If that isn't extremely degrading, I don't know what is.

 

[Kahunaburger]

Let me share with you a story..

In B.C. Canada, a "equal rights group" brought a "men's only lounge" to court for being sexist. Because women were not allowed in. All the examples you are using were applied to the case. Unfortuantely, it faded from the news and the result wasn't heard.

Boy Scouts of Canada allows girls to join.Why? becuase excluding females was argued to be sexist.

Girl Guides of Canada does not allow males to join. Why? Isn't that sexist too? Or do you argue that "people like me" think that if boy scouts is co-ed, shouldn't girl guides be as well?

Or are you going to keep calling me a horrible person?

Same fallacy. Addressing issue X does not mean that you also have to address issue Y at the same time. You can choose to address sexism against females, sexism against males, both, or neither in a particular discussion or legal action.

When you are comparing to things you must look at both sides. It is kinda common sense

You don't have to compare sexism against women to sexism against men to address either issue. You can, but you don't have to.

how do you discuss sexism without talking about both sexes? Unless you are a fan of sentence fragments.....


Aw,golly jee! Those....oppress women!
Wow, Martha! That...just looked at you! that is sexist!

Context....

Sexism isn't just about men oppressing women, kid. Look up who does FGM in societies that practice it.

 

[Navvan]

---> Just like in movies, developers do not put average, ugly, or plain people in their games because if commander Shepard was 20 pounds overweight, if he had bad acne, or if he was too skinny and short, then no one would be immersed in the story Bioware creates.

--> Just like in movies, developers do not put average, ugly, or plain people in their games becuase if Lara Croft were 105 pounds, had glasses, wore sweat pants, and had a eating disorder, no one would believe that she is an ass kicking,well, tomb raider.

Well yeah, obviously. I'm not unfit but I'm not the fittest guy in the world either and I could go climb a mountain or hike fifty miles. I'm smart but again not the best mind of all time and I can't speak fifty languages or decode ancient riddles.

The people in our games undertake great physical and mental feats, of course they're extremely fit and intelligent.

I always understood the argument not being about the characters themselves being attractive, but the way they flaunt their sexuality. Females in games typically have two things that are pointed out as being sexists, their apparel and their attitudes. The apparel is an the one talked about the most, skimpy outfits that show off their already unrealistic breast sizes and the like. The attitudes varies a bit more, but many games portray the females in a light that most females find offensive such as only thinking about a male character as their major personality trait.

These things are much less frequent for male characters. That isn't to say it doesn't happen, but its less common and most of the time when it does happen its a problem with both genders within the game.

Your talking about flaunting sexuality and that is to appeal to the male core gamer majority. Not sexist yet again. I dont want a female character who is timid and acts like a man, im not sexist.

Thanks for reading the first sentence. When an entire genders point of existence in an otherwise well done game is sex appeal, there is a problem. Not because there is anything wrong with sex sells, but it leaves the impression that is how a female is suppose to behave due to its juxtaposition with proper character developments. I'm not just talking about the revealing outfits, that is a minor issue. Its the behavior of the individual that truly matters and when females continuously behave in a pandering manner to males it leaves a false impression of the entire gender.

I'm not saying all games need to portray individuals accurately but it should line up within all the other elements of the game.

Also, people have the right to be offended and protests offenses. No one is questioning whether or not its legal for gaming companies to do this that I know of, and if they are its foolish as there is no ground to stand on for it as its a work of art. A measure of displeasure is being expressed and it stems from the average female characterization being poor in comparison to male characterization. Female rights groups as well as many others including myself would like that trend to change.

 

[Jamboxdotcom]

Playboy magazine is not sexist because women are not forced to look at it. Same with video games.

If they don't like it then don't buy them. If they are a massive part of the consumer base, developers will take notice and change it.

THINGS THAT ARE ABSOLUTE LUXURY ITEMS --> I.E. VIDEOGAMES, ARE REGULATED AND SUPPORTED BY WHO THEY APPEAL TO.

To quote Inigo Montoya: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

It is sexist. Both Playboy, and most video games, portray women as nothing but objects for a man's pleasure. That is unquestionably sexist. Don't get me wrong, i enjoy both Playboy and jiggle physics. But i'm not going to deny that they are, at some level, demeaning to women.

It is, however, a marginally acceptable sexism, for the reasons you stated.

I'm going to part with this, though: Damn, us guys sure have it so damn hard. Life just ain't fair, ya know? /sarcasm

 

[Kimarous]

Let me share with you a story..

In B.C. Canada, a "equal rights group" brought a "men's only lounge" to court for being sexist. Because women were not allowed in. All the examples you are using were applied to the case. Unfortuantely, it faded from the news and the result wasn't heard.

Boy Scouts of Canada allows girls to join.Why? becuase excluding females was argued to be sexist.

Girl Guides of Canada does not allow males to join. Why? Isn't that sexist too? Or do you argue that "people like me" think that if boy scouts is co-ed, shouldn't girl guides be as well?

Or are you going to keep calling me a horrible person?

Just a thought here, but do you think it might be a matter of women wanting to get into male activities, but males not really wanting to get into female activities? There might be enough girls interested in "boy scout" activities to earn access to the organization, but nowhere near as many boys interested in "girl guide" activities to pressure for access? Societal terminology and cultural norms aside, there seem to be a significantly smaller "boys into girl stuff" crowd compared to the "girls into boy stuff" crowd.

Then again, given the recent rise of "bronies"...

 

[Jangles]

So if I am more concerned about how White, western males have it these days than women..doesnt that make me sexist?

Sexism: to discriminate against an individual or collection of individuals based on their gender.

I fail to see how being more concerned with one group over another makes you sexist. It merely makes you a specialist.

just an example, not my view* But I am concerned that men should make a lot of money! I'm not so concerned that women should = sexist

Being more concerned about how one sex is treated is sexist. If you will stand up for equal representation of one sex but not another, that is sexist.

By this logic any article, piece of writing or discussion that affords more coverage to the discussion of one sexes portrayal in the medium than the other automatically earns a baffling mark from your 'Sexism' stamp? Your confusing discussion and concern over ideals. Most people acknowledge that the sexes should be considered equal. Most people also believe that females rights are the more pressing issue. Just because someone thinks women's rights are currently the more pressing issue, and therefore more applicable for discussion, doesn't mean they don't 'stand up for equal representation' of the sexes.

Haha "Women's rights are a more pressing issue" , so I don't care if i violate a man's rights, because a woman's is more important

example from Rwanda: (not at all my view) I dont care if Huutu's are being slaughtered, I am more concerned about the well being of the Tutsi's

If this were 60 years ago, then the portrayal of women in (video games if they had them) would be the hard question to ask. But, in 2011, it is the easy, easy, easy, question to ask. Asking how males are getting hurt from this is the hard question to ask, becuase there are very few minds open to it. (like you refusing to acknowledge that treating people different is ok, when talking about equality)

Women's rights and women as portrayed in the media may not be as clearly required as it was 60 years ago, but it still undeniably is. It's definitely valid that we need to look at both genders presentation in the media, but to say that someone - someone who supports equality between the genders - more concerned with the female representation than with the male is sexist is simply wrong.



If having to spend an absolutely parallel amount of time supporting men's rights to supporting women's rights makes me sexist under your bizarre definition of the word then go ahead and call me and 99% of gender equality activists sexist.

Does not reuqire 100% parallel time. You are exagerating to get your point across. There are no articles about the representation of men. extremely few. only ones devoted to representation of females


To put this as an analogy, you have two buckets. One is 70% full and the other is 50% full. You propose that to get them equal we should add water to them in equal amounts, at the same time. I propose adding water only to the emptier bucket until both are at an equal measure.

That would be a good analogy for giving more rights to men. and how that wouldnt make sense..I wish we were talking about that.

I propose the same thing. but you cannot ignore the other bucket. You must ensure that while adding water, you arent accidentally getting that water from the other bucket (affirmative action) and you havent accidentally cracked the other bucket and the level is now 40% to 70%

Otherwise we are worse off than we started.

 

[Jangles]

Playboy magazine is not sexist because women are not forced to look at it. Same with video games.

If they don't like it then don't buy them. If they are a massive part of the consumer base, developers will take notice and change it.

THINGS THAT ARE ABSOLUTE LUXURY ITEMS --> I.E. VIDEOGAMES, ARE REGULATED AND SUPPORTED BY WHO THEY APPEAL TO.

To quote Inigo Montoya: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

It is sexist. Both Playboy, and most video games, portray women as nothing but objects for a man's pleasure. That is unquestionably sexist. Don't get me wrong, i enjoy both Playboy and jiggle physics. But i'm not going to deny that they are, at some level, demeaning to women.

It is, however, a marginally acceptable sexism, for the reasons you stated.

Women volunteer for playboy. It is not representing women, it is representing A woman. who choose, completely on her own, to be represented that way. It is your problem if you expand that to more than that woman.

If playboy stated "all women are whores!!!!!!!" then yes, that is wrong.

If a game says "all women are whores!!!!" then yes, that is wrong.

Women volunteer to voice female characters that are portrayed as sex toys. No body is forced into it.


Someone already provided a definition so my 2 year old brain thinks it knows what it is talking about.

Women are completely free to act and live the way they would like (within the same framework as men)

Video games and Playboy do not attempt to demand that they only belong in the kitchen. They do not seek the oppression of women. They do not explicitly encourage oppression or msitreatment. Anything that is implied is purely subjective.

 

[Jangles]

Let me share with you a story..

In B.C. Canada, a "equal rights group" brought a "men's only lounge" to court for being sexist. Because women were not allowed in. All the examples you are using were applied to the case. Unfortuantely, it faded from the news and the result wasn't heard.

Boy Scouts of Canada allows girls to join.Why? becuase excluding females was argued to be sexist.

Girl Guides of Canada does not allow males to join. Why? Isn't that sexist too? Or do you argue that "people like me" think that if boy scouts is co-ed, shouldn't girl guides be as well?

Or are you going to keep calling me a horrible person?

Just a thought here, but do you think it might be a matter of women wanting to get into male activities, but males not really wanting to get into female activities? There might be enough girls interested in "boy scout" activities to earn access to the organization, but nowhere near as many boys interested in "girl guide" activities to pressure for access? Societal terminology and cultural norms aside, there seem to be a significantly smaller "boys into girl stuff" crowd compared to the "girls into boy stuff" crowd.

Then again, given the recent rise of "bronies"...

But shouldn't every single boy be able to get into an organization that teaches life skills? Maybe there a few male children who prefer the company of girls and would like to do "girly stuff"

Boy Scouts and Girl Guides is not a pure luxury. It is a socially funded program to develop life skills and leadership skills.

 

[tlozoot]

That would be a good analogy for giving more rights to men. and how that wouldnt make sense..I wish we were talking about that.

I propose the same thing. but you cannot ignore the other bucket. You must ensure that while adding water, you arent accidentally getting that water from the other bucket (affirmative action) and you havent accidentally cracked the other bucket and the level is now 40% to 70%

Otherwise we are worse off than we started.

Are you claiming that being primarily concerned with women's depiction in the media comes at the expense of male rights? That to be more concerned with how women are portrayed somehow means men come off with less rights than women?

 

[Jangles]

---> Just like in movies, developers do not put average, ugly, or plain people in their games because if commander Shepard was 20 pounds overweight, if he had bad acne, or if he was too skinny and short, then no one would be immersed in the story Bioware creates.

--> Just like in movies, developers do not put average, ugly, or plain people in their games becuase if Lara Croft were 105 pounds, had glasses, wore sweat pants, and had a eating disorder, no one would believe that she is an ass kicking,well, tomb raider.

Well yeah, obviously. I'm not unfit but I'm not the fittest guy in the world either and I could go climb a mountain or hike fifty miles. I'm smart but again not the best mind of all time and I can't speak fifty languages or decode ancient riddles.

The people in our games undertake great physical and mental feats, of course they're extremely fit and intelligent.

I always understood the argument not being about the characters themselves being attractive, but the way they flaunt their sexuality. Females in games typically have two things that are pointed out as being sexists, their apparel and their attitudes. The apparel is an the one talked about the most, skimpy outfits that show off their already unrealistic breast sizes and the like. The attitudes varies a bit more, but many games portray the females in a light that most females find offensive such as only thinking about a male character as their major personality trait.

These things are much less frequent for male characters. That isn't to say it doesn't happen, but its less common and most of the time when it does happen its a problem with both genders within the game.

Your talking about flaunting sexuality and that is to appeal to the male core gamer majority. Not sexist yet again. I dont want a female character who is timid and acts like a man, im not sexist.

Thanks for reading the first sentence. When an entire genders point of existence in an otherwise well done game is sex appeal, there is a problem. Not because there is anything wrong with sex sells, but it leaves the impression that is how a female is suppose to behave due to its juxtaposition with proper character developments. I'm not just talking about the revealing outfits, that is a minor issue. Its the behavior of the individual that truly matters and when females continuously behave in a pandering manner to males it leaves a false impression of the entire gender.

I'm not saying all games need to portray individuals accurately but it should line up within all the other elements of the game.

Also, people have the right to be offended and protests offenses. No one is questioning whether or not its legal for gaming companies to do this that I know of, and if they are its foolish as there is no ground to stand on for it as its a work of art. A measure of displeasure is being expressed and it stems from the average female characterization being poor in comparison to male characterization. Female rights groups as well as many others including myself would like that trend to change.

So women would like to be portrayed as all being jacked and tanned? Maybe some beards and mustaches too? I guess if the market will bear it

 

[Jangles]

That would be a good analogy for giving more rights to men. and how that wouldnt make sense..I wish we were talking about that.

I propose the same thing. but you cannot ignore the other bucket. You must ensure that while adding water, you arent accidentally getting that water from the other bucket (affirmative action) and you havent accidentally cracked the other bucket and the level is now 40% to 70%

Otherwise we are worse off than we started.

Are you claiming that being primarily concerned with women's depiction in the media comes at the expense of male rights? That to be more concerned with how women are portrayed somehow means men come off with less rights than women?

I'm saying it contributes to the notion that al white males are selfish, women hating losers.

Also, I am saying that while helping women become equal, we must ensure that men do not suffer in terms of equality.. because then we have jsut created a new inequlity, and if equality is the name of the game....

 

[Jangles]

Let me share with you a story..

In B.C. Canada, a "equal rights group" brought a "men's only lounge" to court for being sexist. Because women were not allowed in. All the examples you are using were applied to the case. Unfortuantely, it faded from the news and the result wasn't heard.

Boy Scouts of Canada allows girls to join.Why? becuase excluding females was argued to be sexist.

Girl Guides of Canada does not allow males to join. Why? Isn't that sexist too? Or do you argue that "people like me" think that if boy scouts is co-ed, shouldn't girl guides be as well?

Or are you going to keep calling me a horrible person?

Same fallacy. Addressing issue X does not mean that you also have to address issue Y at the same time. You can choose to address sexism against females, sexism against males, both, or neither in a particular discussion or legal action.

When you are comparing to things you must look at both sides. It is kinda common sense

You don't have to compare sexism against women to sexism against men to address either issue. You can, but you don't have to.

how do you discuss sexism without talking about both sexes? Unless you are a fan of sentence fragments.....


Aw,golly jee! Those....oppress women!
Wow, Martha! That...just looked at you! that is sexist!

Context....

Sexism isn't just about men oppressing women, kid. Look up who does FGM in societies that practice it.

Well there could have been woman,girl, mother.. etc in place of the dots. it was you who subjectively assumed I was meaning only men.

 

[Jangles]

The reason is because female characters in game are given abnormal amounts of sex appeal to use as a cynical ploy to improve sales, but that's not why male characters are portrayed this way. Male characters are generally designed to appeal to a masculine power fantasy.

Which games are those exactly?

Did Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Jade Empire, or any other Bioware game sell really well because of the premise of being able to have inter-species sex?

Did Call of Duty, or Halo or any games that reached in the top 10 sales of the week and that involve shooting random pixelated bad guys sell because of the titties?

Did Prince of Persia: Warrior Within sell because of the hot babes in skimpy armor help sell it, or was it because it was Prince of Persia?

From Japan, did ninja gaiden sell because of that chick with huge titties, Dead or Alive, Soul Calibur, because of those chicks dressed like strippers?


Bayonetta ... a strong independent female ass-kicker ... one game where the female character is truly strong, a badass, is often viewed as depicting women in a cheap manner, but somehow Alyx is treated as a Mary Sue when she is just a support character that can somehow kick the butts of enemies ... off-screen ... but somehow send the poor doctor to do all the dirty work of saving the world.

JRPGs, now that's something I wouldn't dare touch, the female archetypes are usually 'meh' but definitely feel better than the female cast in DA2 except for Meredith ... well that is untill she somehow got a certain item, bought off-screen from a peddler in dark town. (at least, the geeky one, like Rita Mordio from Tales of Vesperia ... actually the female cast of ToV was great, even Estelle grew up on me for being such a dork).

To use the most obvious example, take the case of Duke Nukem (and please don't bother to point it out if you feel DN is supposed to be a parody or anything else like that, even if it is a parody, it's a parody of industry norms.) The design of female characters in the game is obvious, to create sex appeal to draw in male customers. But the design of Duke is obviously not meant to be sexually appealing to female customers to increase sales (he is after all a disgusting sexist pig). Duke is an extremely immature masculine power fantasy, a guy with a lot of strength who gets lots of women. "Perfect" male characters are still being used to sell games to men!

Yes, DNF is a parody, of industry norms? Bullshit, let's see, the white alpha male, his cheerleaders, look like something that's more of a parody of jocks and their herd ... or the caveman and his cavecheerleaders?. If I were to mentally query all action heroes of Duke's 'calibur', few seemed to be banging a hot babe (translation: have the time to go on a date, or visit the family of his other-half) after a good day of ass-kicking, because they are too busy preparing for the next playthrough ... of ass-kicking.


DNF is a parody. A parody! Are we not allowed to have our dirty little guilty pleasures now? Even if it was a sub-par games according to reviewers. (I love FPS, but I hate FPS with an overload of extras that do not involve, shooty shooty -big explosion- -boss fights- -wave of enemies-, as far as I can tell from the reviews, there was too much diversion and lack of features for DNF to be a decent shooter ... so I'll stick with F3ar and S8: Prejudice).

The idea that men are being portrayed as sexual objects in games is patently ridiculous. This argument is reactionist nonsense meant to help people rationalize to themselves why they shouldn't be bothered by the pixilated tities they enjoy watching so much. Ever wonder why it's made almost exclusively by men?

Maybe because males were the first to get in this field of geek/nerd-dom, the same craft they have been ostracized for, now revered because their craft allows them to make money, lots of money.

There's a solution to all of this, "oh noes, we need decent female characters!". More women joining this field of work, considering how Indie Developers are having a hell of an 'easy' time to have their product released on the market, I feel said female developers will have a great time showing us how a good female characters should be.

I am not saying, "z0mg woman, stop complaining" or "developers shouldn't, because they are males, have women in their ranks for the sole purpose of crafting a female character", but pretending that developers should instantly be able to craft good female characters out of thin air, is dickish.

Funny enough, the few movies I watched with Megan Fox and Scarlet Johansson(T1/2 and Iron Man 2) were subpar, specially when it came down to their acting or how they delivered what few lines they were given. Somehow they have legion of fans, so maybe we should ask them to kindly stop breathing, because being aesthically pleasing to men, is mysogny! We can't have that now!!!!!

Final Points: Games need to remove the concept of a static main character, and take the Mass Effect route, with a main character who, despite whether being a male or female, can operate in the game world without any hick up. As in, a game modder who wants to play as a female character in HL2, mods the game, and is still referred as "he" through-out the game.

Support female characters, definitely should be wearing the appropriate clothes/armor throughout the game, unlike those two characters (minus Tali and the blue one) in ME2.

It is a movie about iron man, not agent romanov.

 

[Jangles]

The reason is because female characters in game are given abnormal amounts of sex appeal to use as a cynical ploy to improve sales, but that's not why male characters are portrayed this way. Male characters are generally designed to appeal to a masculine power fantasy.

Which games are those exactly?

Did Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Jade Empire, or any other Bioware game sell really well because of the premise of being able to have inter-species sex?

Did Call of Duty, or Halo or any games that reached in the top 10 sales of the week and that involve shooting random pixelated bad guys sell because of the titties?

Did Prince of Persia: Warrior Within sell because of the hot babes in skimpy armor help sell it, or was it because it was Prince of Persia?

From Japan, did ninja gaiden sell because of that chick with huge titties, Dead or Alive, Soul Calibur, because of those chicks dressed like strippers?


Bayonetta ... a strong independent female ass-kicker ... one game where the female character is truly strong, a badass, is often viewed as depicting women in a cheap manner, but somehow Alyx is treated as a Mary Sue when she is just a support character that can somehow kick the butts of enemies ... off-screen ... but somehow send the poor doctor to do all the dirty work of saving the world.

JRPGs, now that's something I wouldn't dare touch, the female archetypes are usually 'meh' but definitely feel better than the female cast in DA2 except for Meredith ... well that is untill she somehow got a certain item, bought off-screen from a peddler in dark town. (at least, the geeky one, like Rita Mordio from Tales of Vesperia ... actually the female cast of ToV was great, even Estelle grew up on me for being such a dork).

To use the most obvious example, take the case of Duke Nukem (and please don't bother to point it out if you feel DN is supposed to be a parody or anything else like that, even if it is a parody, it's a parody of industry norms.) The design of female characters in the game is obvious, to create sex appeal to draw in male customers. But the design of Duke is obviously not meant to be sexually appealing to female customers to increase sales (he is after all a disgusting sexist pig). Duke is an extremely immature masculine power fantasy, a guy with a lot of strength who gets lots of women. "Perfect" male characters are still being used to sell games to men!

Yes, DNF is a parody, of industry norms? Bullshit, let's see, the white alpha male, his cheerleaders, look like something that's more of a parody of jocks and their herd ... or the caveman and his cavecheerleaders?. If I were to mentally query all action heroes of Duke's 'calibur', few seemed to be banging a hot babe (translation: have the time to go on a date, or visit the family of his other-half) after a good day of ass-kicking, because they are too busy preparing for the next playthrough ... of ass-kicking.


DNF is a parody. A parody! Are we not allowed to have our dirty little guilty pleasures now? Even if it was a sub-par games according to reviewers. (I love FPS, but I hate FPS with an overload of extras that do not involve, shooty shooty -big explosion- -boss fights- -wave of enemies-, as far as I can tell from the reviews, there was too much diversion and lack of features for DNF to be a decent shooter ... so I'll stick with F3ar and S8: Prejudice).

The idea that men are being portrayed as sexual objects in games is patently ridiculous. This argument is reactionist nonsense meant to help people rationalize to themselves why they shouldn't be bothered by the pixilated tities they enjoy watching so much. Ever wonder why it's made almost exclusively by men?

Maybe because males were the first to get in this field of geek/nerd-dom, the same craft they have been ostracized for, now revered because their craft allows them to make money, lots of money.

There's a solution to all of this, "oh noes, we need decent female characters!". More women joining this field of work, considering how Indie Developers are having a hell of an 'easy' time to have their product released on the market, I feel said female developers will have a great time showing us how a good female characters should be.

I am not saying, "z0mg woman, stop complaining" or "developers shouldn't, because they are males, have women in their ranks for the sole purpose of crafting a female character", but pretending that developers should instantly be able to craft good female characters out of thin air, is dickish.

Funny enough, the few movies I watched with Megan Fox and Scarlet Johansson(T1/2 and Iron Man 2) were subpar, specially when it came down to their acting or how they delivered what few lines they were given. Somehow they have legion of fans, so maybe we should ask them to kindly stop breathing, because being aesthically pleasing to men, is mysogny! We can't have that now!!!!!

Final Points: Games need to remove the concept of a static main character, and take the Mass Effect route, with a main character who, despite whether being a male or female, can operate in the game world without any hick up. As in, a game modder who wants to play as a female character in HL2, mods the game, and is still referred as "he" through-out the game.

Support female characters, definitely should be wearing the appropriate clothes/armor throughout the game, unlike those two characters (minus Tali and the blue one) in ME2.

But otherwise you make an excellent point. thanks.