To Only Examine Inaccurate Portrayals of Females And Not Males Is Sexist

[Navvan]

---> Just like in movies, developers do not put average, ugly, or plain people in their games because if commander Shepard was 20 pounds overweight, if he had bad acne, or if he was too skinny and short, then no one would be immersed in the story Bioware creates.

--> Just like in movies, developers do not put average, ugly, or plain people in their games becuase if Lara Croft were 105 pounds, had glasses, wore sweat pants, and had a eating disorder, no one would believe that she is an ass kicking,well, tomb raider.

Well yeah, obviously. I'm not unfit but I'm not the fittest guy in the world either and I could go climb a mountain or hike fifty miles. I'm smart but again not the best mind of all time and I can't speak fifty languages or decode ancient riddles.

The people in our games undertake great physical and mental feats, of course they're extremely fit and intelligent.

I always understood the argument not being about the characters themselves being attractive, but the way they flaunt their sexuality. Females in games typically have two things that are pointed out as being sexists, their apparel and their attitudes. The apparel is an the one talked about the most, skimpy outfits that show off their already unrealistic breast sizes and the like. The attitudes varies a bit more, but many games portray the females in a light that most females find offensive such as only thinking about a male character as their major personality trait.

These things are much less frequent for male characters. That isn't to say it doesn't happen, but its less common and most of the time when it does happen its a problem with both genders within the game.

Your talking about flaunting sexuality and that is to appeal to the male core gamer majority. Not sexist yet again. I dont want a female character who is timid and acts like a man, im not sexist.

Thanks for reading the first sentence. When an entire genders point of existence in an otherwise well done game is sex appeal, there is a problem. Not because there is anything wrong with sex sells, but it leaves the impression that is how a female is suppose to behave due to its juxtaposition with proper character developments. I'm not just talking about the revealing outfits, that is a minor issue. Its the behavior of the individual that truly matters and when females continuously behave in a pandering manner to males it leaves a false impression of the entire gender.

I'm not saying all games need to portray individuals accurately but it should line up within all the other elements of the game.

Also, people have the right to be offended and protests offenses. No one is questioning whether or not its legal for gaming companies to do this that I know of, and if they are its foolish as there is no ground to stand on for it as its a work of art. A measure of displeasure is being expressed and it stems from the average female characterization being poor in comparison to male characterization. Female rights groups as well as many others including myself would like that trend to change.

So women would like to be portrayed as all being jacked and tanned? Maybe some beards and mustaches too? I guess if the market will bear it

You've just proved yourself a troll so this will be my last post. If not you're apparently to stubborn to get off the point that sexism in games is not inherently or even largely based on character appearances. Characterization is not about physical appearance its about conveying who someone is usually dependent on their behavior. And no, I'm not saying females should behave as men in games. They should behave as actual females do or females aspire to be unless the character is suppose to have a negative characterization. No a counter argument is not men acting unrealistically, as while men do this often in games its typically done so that the man acts like most men aspire to be. Female characters act like some men wish them to be, and that is offensive to females who play games or people who actually like good character development.

 

[Kimarous]

Let me share with you a story..

In B.C. Canada, a "equal rights group" brought a "men's only lounge" to court for being sexist. Because women were not allowed in. All the examples you are using were applied to the case. Unfortuantely, it faded from the news and the result wasn't heard.

Boy Scouts of Canada allows girls to join.Why? becuase excluding females was argued to be sexist.

Girl Guides of Canada does not allow males to join. Why? Isn't that sexist too? Or do you argue that "people like me" think that if boy scouts is co-ed, shouldn't girl guides be as well?

Or are you going to keep calling me a horrible person?

Just a thought here, but do you think it might be a matter of women wanting to get into male activities, but males not really wanting to get into female activities? There might be enough girls interested in "boy scout" activities to earn access to the organization, but nowhere near as many boys interested in "girl guide" activities to pressure for access? Societal terminology and cultural norms aside, there seem to be a significantly smaller "boys into girl stuff" crowd compared to the "girls into boy stuff" crowd.

Then again, given the recent rise of "bronies"...

But shouldn't every single boy be able to get into an organization that teaches life skills? Maybe there a few male children who prefer the company of girls and would like to do "girly stuff"

Boy Scouts and Girl Guides is not a pure luxury. It is a socially funded program to develop life skills and leadership skills.

I'm not arguing that. I was more trying to make the point that society rarely will lobby for such a low-key cause. To bring up the men's lobby situation, the feminist movement (who, let's face it, are the ones who got offended) has a much bigger voice than "boys who want to sell cookies" (if you'll excuse the generalization). If that equal right's group was turned down, it might offend others with similar ideals, while the "boys for girl scouts" don't appear to have as much allies. Them being turned down is most likely just going to offend themselves. It's this perceived "lost cause" position that likely keeps such issues from coming to light.

Still, such social commentary is probably a different topic than what this one is about. I don't mean to hijack your topic.

 

[Doclector]

While you have a point, it's obvious that the people complaining about females in games have a lot more to complain about. If you think about it, we get plenty of male characters who ain't steroid junkie meatheads; Alan wake, John marston, niko bellic, pretty much all the left 4 dead males, and scoot from hydrophobia being a complete opposite of the typical videogame man, albeit as a secondary character. Now think of good female characters. Kate from hydrophobia, zoey from left 4 dead...erm...Eleanor from Bioshock 2...erm...bonny macfarlane...

See my point? Male characters need a look at sure, but when male character are depicted as muscle bound growly voiced heroes these days, it often seems to be in parody or as a kind of deliberate OTT thing, like I believe the gears of war protagonists to be, but women are made into sex objects in games all the damn time.

 

[Thespian]

*READ THE ENTIRE COMMENT BEFORE QUOTING ME

Along with the seemingly renewed vigor of feminists everywhere, writers of gaming articles have begun to pander to the push for "equality" in every single aspect of life and have begun to ask "Why are females in games made to be extremely attractive to the vastly male majority of core gamers?" and "Why is Lara Croft wearing a tank top rather than a hoody? Wouldnt that be less sexist? Why are fantasy characters in fake looking armour?"

just because gamers like to see a sexy woman in a game does not mean they think of women as mere objects.

However, what they are purposely overlooking is the fact that males are inaccurately portrayed as all being adonis like. All male characters are the equivalent representatives of their female counterparts.

This is because there is no male rights groups to pander to. The hard questions to ask are no longer about why women are being "subjugated", "exploited", or "sexually harrassed", but why are fake problems being brought up and why is all common sense, not to mention the other side of the story.


Now, to all those griefers, trolls, and close minded people who think subjugation only happens to females I would like to answer questions for both genders.

---> Just like in movies, developers do not put average, ugly, or plain people in their games because if commander Shepard was 20 pounds overweight, if he had bad acne, or if he was too skinny and short, then no one would be immersed in the story Bioware creates.

--> Just like in movies, developers do not put average, ugly, or plain people in their games becuase if Lara Croft were 105 pounds, had glasses, wore sweat pants, and had a eating disorder, no one would believe that she is an ass kicking,well, tomb raider.

--> They do, however, use obese, weird, or deviant people to create comedy, or sentimental stories that break away from the norm..like the TV show "Mike & Molly" a show about obese people being happy

Also, I will say that there are numerous definitions of "happiness" and "beauty", but we are obviously discussing physical beauty here.

Games are simply pandering to the crowd that makes them the most money. Period

just because gamers like to see a sexy woman in a game does not mean they think of women as mere objects.


You pander to the crowd that makes you the most money. TV shows, businesses, banks, games, movies are beginning to pander to the increasingly "outed" homosexual population because the sight of a man kissing a man is becoming more accepted. Therefore, there is more money in it.

Sorry, but I think you are almost 100% wrong here.

No, I don't know if you are bisexual, heterosexually female, or homosexually male, but I am the latter so I am attracted to males and yes, I agree that males in gaming are usually portrayed as an almighty muscular handsome Adonis.

And yes, Shepard is one tasty dish, and yes, I would be pretty disinterested if he was a funny looking guy with a pot belly, or if a FemShep I made was particularly odd-looking. We've probably been grown to prefer handsome or capable-looking specimens of humans by hollywood, and that's okay so long as it isn't applied to day-to-day life.

However, I don't think the problem lies there. I have no problem with females being attractive.
For example, take the movie Sucker Punch - Girls dressed in tight, revelatory clothing doing lots of outrageous flips and whatnot. However, they had their own motivations. They knew what they had to do. They intermingled between each other, each one had a voice, they were strong and independent.
This is rare. There are lots of great examples, sure, but it is still rare for the most part. Normally, women in games are judged in comparison to men. Their dreams and goals will only be to help or serve the men. They will devote themselves to men. Their only purpose to the plot will be to act as a love interest or temptress to a male, and when put with other women they shall talk of the men in their lives. There may be depth to them, but primarily, without the male lead they would have no role in the plot.
Now, in the case of Lara Croft, where the female IS the lead, it's totally different. She's not just attractive - Which, as I said, is fine - But attractive specifically to the average male gamer.
See, Shepard is attractive, but generically so - If you were to go for what was really a typical teenage girl's view of an attractive man, you'd get something yaoi-style, and it's quite different to how Shepard, or Nathan Drake, or any other generically handsome gaming protagonist looks.
This means the only reason it's a female lead is to act as sex bait for the demographic.
Shepard wears full body armour, too.

Well, anywho, that's my opinion. A female character can often just be devoted to sex appeal whilst males can have more depth, or at least another purpose.
John McClane might not be the most charismatic soul, but I don't think he's there for sex appeal. Nor do I think you could replace him with a female all too easily. Lara Croft could probably be replaced with an attractive male treasure hunter, like, ooh, say... Nathan Drake, and the series would still work.

 

[woodwalker]

if Lara Croft were 105 pounds, had glasses, wore sweat pants, and had a eating disorder, no one would believe that she is an ass kicking,well, tomb raider.

How does having massive breasts help in being an acrobatic tomb raider?

"Well, as it turns out, Lara's bust is a result of a mistake. Artist Toby Gard, one of the people in charge of designing Lara Croft, was toying around with the dimensions of the character. When setting the dimensions of her chest, he slipped with his mouse and increased the boob area by a cartoonish 150 percent."
-#6, http://www.cracked.com/article_19262_6-glitches-that-accidentally-invented-modern-gaming.html

Could be wrong, but it could be true, too.

 

[Xanadu84]

The problem here is that amongst male characters, there is a wide range of attractiveness, from slender to bulky to muscular, even slightly pudgy. It is also more acceptable when a male character brakes from these images, and male characters are generally idealized versions of a body type that any guy could potentially benefit from striving to be like. Women, on the other hand, must be tiny with huge breasts, no exceptions. The attempts to sexualize women go far beyond feasibility, and into the grotesque. Then of course, there is the bigger issue of personality, attitude, and belief generally being a footnote to the D cups.

Are games pushing a sexist agenda, subjugating every woman in it's wake? Hell no. And certainly Games are reacting to the same market forces as sexist representations in movies, television, etc, and the demographic is just more focused in games, exacerbating the problem. But that doesn't excuse the problem. Certainly presenting a desirable body image more often then you see in reality is acceptable, beneficial even, but the problem runs deeper then that. The problem isn't an individual female character who is forgettable in every way except the beach balls plastered to her chest, it's that moving away from that image is all too rare.

 

[BrionJames]

*READ THE ENTIRE COMMENT BEFORE QUOTING ME

Along with the seemingly renewed vigor of feminists everywhere, writers of gaming articles have begun to pander to the push for "equality" in every single aspect of life and have begun to ask "Why are females in games made to be extremely attractive to the vastly male majority of core gamers?" and "Why is Lara Croft wearing a tank top rather than a hoody? Wouldnt that be less sexist? Why are fantasy characters in fake looking armour?"

just because gamers like to see a sexy woman in a game does not mean they think of women as mere objects.

However, what they are purposely overlooking is the fact that males are inaccurately portrayed as all being adonis like. All male characters are the equivalent representatives of their female counterparts.

This is because there is no male rights groups to pander to. The hard questions to ask are no longer about why women are being "subjugated", "exploited", or "sexually harrassed", but why are fake problems being brought up and why is all common sense, not to mention the other side of the story.


Now, to all those griefers, trolls, and close minded people who think subjugation only happens to females I would like to answer questions for both genders.

---> Just like in movies, developers do not put average, ugly, or plain people in their games because if commander Shepard was 20 pounds overweight, if he had bad acne, or if he was too skinny and short, then no one would be immersed in the story Bioware creates.

--> Just like in movies, developers do not put average, ugly, or plain people in their games becuase if Lara Croft were 105 pounds, had glasses, wore sweat pants, and had a eating disorder, no one would believe that she is an ass kicking,well, tomb raider.

--> They do, however, use obese, weird, or deviant people to create comedy, or sentimental stories that break away from the norm..like the TV show "Mike & Molly" a show about obese people being happy

Also, I will say that there are numerous definitions of "happiness" and "beauty", but we are obviously discussing physical beauty here.

Games are simply pandering to the crowd that makes them the most money. Period

just because gamers like to see a sexy woman in a game does not mean they think of women as mere objects.


You pander to the crowd that makes you the most money. TV shows, businesses, banks, games, movies are beginning to pander to the increasingly "outed" homosexual population because the sight of a man kissing a man is becoming more accepted. Therefore, there is more money in it.

I agree sir. It is all about the money. Anyone who says differently is not looking at the subject realistically.

 

[Condiments]

I have not ignored this whatsoever. I have said clearly that video games are a complete luxury item. If video games were school textbooks then women could not easily boycott games until they have changed.

Playboy magazine is not sexist because women are not forced to look at it. Same with video games.

If they don't like it then don't buy them. If they are a massive part of the consumer base, developers will take notice and change it.

THINGS THAT ARE ABSOLUTE LUXURY ITEMS --> I.E. VIDEOGAMES, ARE REGULATED AND SUPPORTED BY WHO THEY APPEAL TO.

Your analogy with Playboy magazine would only work if Playboy was the only magazine available. Fortunately it is not. Women have a variety of choices, and even a female equivalent "Playgirl" magazine as well. The problem specifically with the videogame industry is that its wildly skewed in the direction of "Playboy" with no alternative. Our industry is too highly specialized towards the "sexually frustrated 15-35 white male" demographic. Pointing this is out is not inherently sexist just because they don't point out other similar problems as well. Not every argument has to start with "DISCLAIMER: WE HOLD THIS OPINION, AND FOR IT NOT TO BE HYPOCRITICAL TO THE HYPERSENSITIVE AMONGST US, WE BELIEVE THIS AS WELL."

I'm not discounting your opinion that as an industry, developers tend to overgeneralize their audience and blatantly pander to us. I don't need over-sized breasts with jiggle physics for a game to be appealing to me. I'd much rather have them focus on the great features, mechanics, stories, and gameplay. Lets just not make fallacious attempts to discount other arguments because "THEY'RE NOT TALKING BOUT THIS TOO!" Its rather juvenile.

 

[Callate]

So... Harry Mason and James Sunderland from Silent Hill, Blanka, Oro, and Gen from the Street Fighter series, Chuck Greene from Dead Rising 2, Tommy Vercetti of Grand Theft Auto: Vice City, Ray McCall of the Call of Juarez games, etc. etc... are all "Adonises"?

I think you have a point about gamers not objectifying women as much as some would like to portray, but to be blunt, I don't think you make it very well...

There was a pretty good panel discussion with a number of women associated with The Escapist on female characters in video games, and the general consensus was that none of them really had any problem with female characters being "sexy".

Though it would be nice if a little more often female characters didn't go into combat wearing outfits that couldn't possibly stay in place without industrial-strength adhesive.

 

[Gudrests]

if Lara Croft were 105 pounds, had glasses, wore sweat pants, and had a eating disorder, no one would believe that she is an ass kicking,well, tomb raider.

How does having massive breasts help in being an acrobatic tomb raider?

When she does a jump flip the massive breasts help her spin forward But its true. Women look how the "media" portrays women, and men look how the "media" portrays that they should look....Men all jacked and shit and women all...well... yeahhhh like that

 

[Jake0fTrades]

In God of War, Kratos is only wearing about a single square foot of fabric and we literally play as him while he shags half of the Greek pantheon. You're honestly going to tell me that Lara Croft is more exposed than Kratos?

 

[Alpha Maeko]

This topic and related topics are automatically Phail to begin with.

It's the usual "not a straight white male" conversation that, in itself, -panders- to anyone who isn't.

Irony at it's fullest.

 

[hotsauceman]

I think its because there is less societal pressure on men to look like superman then women do for looking like wonder women. There are alot more half naked women in malls windows then men. You ask more big men you will find they are alot more comfortable with theire weight then most women.
This summarize it well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lahLuBbO7M0

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

Along with the seemingly renewed vigor of feminists everywhere, writers of gaming articles have begun to pander to the push for "equality" in every single aspect of life and have begun to ask "Why are females in games made to be extremely attractive to the vastly male majority of core gamers?"

Yeah, except that's not the complain that any female feminist gamer has (at least none that I've ever met).

As a female gamer, MY complaint is that there are fairly few female protagonists, and that many of the female characters in gaming reflect negative stereotypes.

Most games are about white men being awesome. If there's a female character in the game, she's there for that guy to have sex with or rescue (or both).

This isn't a problem with just gaming either - movies have this problem as well. However, there are several categories of movie marketed to women. Very few video games market to women, however. Well, outside of Popcap. So that's a problem.

What I want are more strong female protagonists. Why can't the detective be a woman, instead of a hardbitten man? Why not the action hero? And I have no problem giving the player a little eye-candy, as long as the woman is well written and interesting.

Aya Brea, Samus (apart from Other M), Chell (from Portal), and Female Shepard are the only strong female protagonists I can think of off the top of my head, and that's just sad. There need to be more women protagonists.

I mean, do you, as a guy, really have a problem seeing a fine ass running around carrying your video game gun? I didn't think so.

 

[Sudenak]

Games pander to men. And it's sexist. /thread

Seriously, I don't know why you think that a game becomes more immersive once we have flawless, beautiful characters strutting about.

Also: Chell. Easily not pandering to men, easily not super uber hot (although they did tweak her in Portal 2). She was average. And it was good.

If you want to see a character who is pandering to women, see Fenris. Women are not attracted to men who have biceps bigger than their head. That's what men want to see.

As a woman, I can't remember the last time that I bought a game because I thought "gee, these men sure do look beautiful". I made my Hawke ugly as fuck, because I didn't want a walking Adonis. I wanted him to have flaws of -some- kind, since he seemed to be the only person in the city that wasn't bigoted (besides Varric).

Let me know when men are paid less. Or not allowed to show their face, walk alone, or drive (in some countries). Let me know when men are given fewer job options. Let me know when you hear "Men on the internet? LOL Balls or GTFO". Let me know when you're ridiculed for having sex with more than a few people instead of being championed for it. Let me know when jokes are made about rights you had to fight to earn constantly.

Women have the short end of the stick. When we're depicted as having breasts that would snap our scrawny backs, we have every reason to be offended. It's true that men are portrayed bizarrely, too, but that does not excuse objectifying women.

Especially because both objectified genders are pandering to men. And just because glorious Capitalism is designed to pander to the most wallets, doesn't excuse this.

Also, your title, your warning, and your overall tone...it's just insulting. It's as if you're telling us to shut up because you find yourself to be equally hurt. If you're also suffering inequality, why not stand up and voice your opinion? Or is it more important to demonize the other gender?

It just seems arrogant to call women sexist. Especially when you compare Lara Croft to a customizable male character. You could ugly his face up if you wanted to. You can't give Lara realistic breasts for her body.

EDIT: I agree with the person above me, too. There's hardly any strong female protagonists who don't end up being arm-candy for a male lead. Samus (ignoring Other M) and Chell are the only two I've been in contact with. And that's really sad.

That's what feminists want more of. Using the word "feminism" as an insult only further makes me think that you don't really understand why women are offended by games in general.

 

[FluxCapacitor]

Jangles, if you're not a troll then you're someone speaking from atop the walls of male privilege (google it). There is actually a huge amount of gender equality theory out there, folks have been studying it for 50 years now, and you seem to be aware of none of it.

Long story short, the games designed for the male dollar are full of scantily clad women to do, and alpha males to be. Meanwhile, the games for girls have petz and poniez and all sorts of patronising shit. The difference isn't just in the volume of games for guys, it's in the fact that they bother to aim them at guys properly, whereas for girls they just slap some pink together. You talk about 'both sides of the equation' to glibly dismiss a valid criticism about argument focus, and yet you ignore that a portrayal is nothing without an audience. Male audiences are being treated MUCH BETTER than female audiences, despite recent evidence that huge proportions of women game as well. Furthermore, you explicitly reinforce the notion that pandering to male gamers is 'where the money is', ignoring the counterpoint that there might be money in pandering to women instead or *gasp* producing a mature piece of entertainment for all audiences.

When male isn't the default playable character gender, when women are involved in designing games for women, when gender differences in character stats are better than "She can't carry as much, she's a gurl", and when we've found some way to atone for the whole jiggle physics thing THEN the straight white males can talk about how we are being misrepresented. Until then, it just comes off as ignorant bitching from a privileged class that doesn't like losing its privileges.

 

[TheLiham]

if Lara Croft were 105 pounds, had glasses, wore sweat pants, and had a eating disorder, no one would believe that she is an ass kicking,well, tomb raider.

How does having massive breasts help in being an acrobatic tomb raider?

Better weight distribution?

 

[Kafka Torkarev]

hmmm, wait, if women do not want to be objecified, why do all the women i see on the streets look like hookers, and bearly clothed... well women. i mean think about it for a second.
just take alook around you home land (if you live in a place where women show their skin)
and see how many you can spot who are waring short shorts, skirts, bekinies, and other reveiling clothes.
besides, its a mans duty to look at a woman and say "hot damn"

 

[conflictofinterests]

However, what they are purposely overlooking is the fact that males are inaccurately portrayed as all being adonis like. All male characters are the equivalent representatives of their female counterparts.

SNIP

---> Just like in movies, developers do not put average, ugly, or plain people in their games because if commander Shepard was 20 pounds overweight, if he had bad acne, or if he was too skinny and short, then no one would be immersed in the story Bioware creates.

SNIP

Not so much "Adonis" like as "Slab of meat" like. Seriously, the men in most games are WAY closer to being modeled after a rectangular prism than any body builder I'VE ever seen.

Male Shep is a bad example, because for some reason even though the voice actor only ever emotes when he's FULL renegade, and otherwise sounds like a highschooler reading a report, there are fans who STILL think he's the best thing since sliced bread. I'm pretty sure, in light of that, he could get away with acne, or 20 extra pounds, just not both (Well, maybe he could if the voice actor gave two shits outside of SUPER renegade options)