To the people who don't pirate: Is life really so bad?

[-Orgasmatron-]

Downloading films is stealing, if you do it you will face the consequences.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGXavXZwRcg

Seriously though, I think alot of younger people download music because they listen to so much stuff but can't afford to buy it. The artists don't loose out on anything their as it's only the record companys that make money from album sales, the artists themselves make money from selling concert tickets and I think being able to get hold of music freely does nothing but boost ticket sales.

So there we go, everyone's a winner besides the evil record labels.

For games and movies it is different I guess, with movies though you really don't get the same experience watching a pirate version as you would going to the cinema. As for games I'm not really sure there is any way you could make piracy look morally correct, although they are very expensive.

I'm not as educated about games and movies though so don't take any of that to heart.

 

[Dramatic Flare]

Well, when you pirate, you are stealing an intellectual product. You steal money from the developer as well as stealing their right as a company to limit distribution of a game.

You're not stealing any money, they don't own that money yet. Robbing a bank is stealing money, pickpocketing is stealing money. Pirates just copying the orignal, that's a big difference since again, nothing is technically stolen e.a missing from the shelves. The only thing you're really doing, money-wise, is limiting there profits, and that's not illegal. Afterall, not buying stuff is also limiting a developers profit.
The latter does capture the essence: developers have the right to limit distribution, but ofcourse you can't steal that right from them, you can only violate (as in human rights violations) that right. And that's what pirates are doing, they're not stealing but they're violating the rights of developers.

copyright is a system to prevent the stealing of ideas without a creator's consent. The simple fact is that an idea can be stolen as effectively as any hard copy. By law [http://www.copyright.gov/title17/], copyright infringement is essentially the same thing as stealing.
Theft is the taking an object and not paying for it. Theft also counts that if you take something from someone who stole it themselves, it's still stolen property and you have become an accomplice. So, in essence, if someone cracks a video game and you download it, you have performed theft.

 

[Erikaiht]

Well, when you pirate, you are stealing an intellectual product. You steal money from the developer as well as stealing their right as a company to limit distribution of a game.

You're not stealing any money, they don't own that money yet. Robbing a bank is stealing money, pickpocketing is stealing money. Pirates just copying the orignal, that's a big difference since again, nothing is technically stolen e.a missing from the shelves. The only thing you're really doing, money-wise, is limiting there profits, and that's not illegal. Afterall, not buying stuff is also limiting a developers profit.
The latter does capture the essence: developers have the right to limit distribution, but ofcourse you can't steal that right from them, you can only violate (as in human rights violations) that right. And that's what pirates are doing, they're not stealing but they're violating the rights of developers.

Aha, you got yourself there, according to copyright laws, Chapter 13 § 1309. Infringement

(a) Acts of Infringement. ? Except as provided in subsection (b), it shall be infringement of the exclusive rights in a design protected under this chapter for any person, without the consent of the owner of the design, within the United States and during the term of such protection, to ?

(1) make, have made, or import, for sale or for use in trade, any infringing article as defined in subsection (e); or

(2) sell or distribute for sale or for use in trade any such infringing article.

It's long, very long after that, in fact, you'd need a degree in boredom to read it all and understand it completely. But summed up, it states that infringing on a copyright is stealing, it also steals the ability to limit production to what the maker chooses.

In fact, it is clearly obvious in just that excerpt "make, have made, or import, for sale or for use in trade, any infringing article as defined in subsection (e); or" that by downloading it, you are making it yourself, from a copy someone else had made. Now backing it up is fine, but when you give it to someone else, that's when we hit the law.

 

[Infiniteloop]

This is one of those abortion topics. The truth lies somewhere in the middle and no one wants to look for it.

 

[Cowabungaa]

Well, when you pirate, you are stealing an intellectual product. You steal money from the developer as well as stealing their right as a company to limit distribution of a game.

You're not stealing any money, they don't own that money yet. Robbing a bank is stealing money, pickpocketing is stealing money. Pirates just copying the orignal, that's a big difference since again, nothing is technically stolen e.a missing from the shelves. The only thing you're really doing, money-wise, is limiting there profits, and that's not illegal. Afterall, not buying stuff is also limiting a developers profit.
The latter does capture the essence: developers have the right to limit distribution, but ofcourse you can't steal that right from them, you can only violate (as in human rights violations) that right. And that's what pirates are doing, they're not stealing but they're violating the rights of developers.

Aha, you got yourself there, according to copyright laws, Chapter 13 § 1309. Infringement

(a) Acts of Infringement. ? Except as provided in subsection (b), it shall be infringement of the exclusive rights in a design protected under this chapter for any person, without the consent of the owner of the design, within the United States and during the term of such protection, to ?

(1) make, have made, or import, for sale or for use in trade, any infringing article as defined in subsection (e); or

(2) sell or distribute for sale or for use in trade any such infringing article.

It's long, very long after that, in fact, you'd need a degree in boredom to read it all and understand it completely. But summed up, it states that infringing on a copyright is stealing, it also steals the ability to limit production to what the maker chooses.

Well if the law says so. It still sounds réally strange to me, that you can steal the developers ability to limit production. If you ask me, piracy simply shows they don't have that ability. O well, it's not the first time that law wouldn't make any sense. But, I'm not trading or selling any of my pirated stuff, it seems that then I'm not a pirate?

Well, when you pirate, you are stealing an intellectual product. You steal money from the developer as well as stealing their right as a company to limit distribution of a game.

You're not stealing any money, they don't own that money yet. Robbing a bank is stealing money, pickpocketing is stealing money. Pirates just copying the orignal, that's a big difference since again, nothing is technically stolen e.a missing from the shelves. The only thing you're really doing, money-wise, is limiting there profits, and that's not illegal. Afterall, not buying stuff is also limiting a developers profit.
The latter does capture the essence: developers have the right to limit distribution, but ofcourse you can't steal that right from them, you can only violate (as in human rights violations) that right. And that's what pirates are doing, they're not stealing but they're violating the rights of developers.

copyright is a system to prevent the stealing of ideas without a creator's consent. The simple fact is that an idea can be stolen as effectively as any hard copy. By law [http://www.copyright.gov/title17/], copyright infringement is essentially the same thing as stealing.
Theft is the taking an object and not paying for it. Theft also counts that if you take something from someone who stole it themselves, it's still stolen property and you have become an accomplice. So, in essence, if someone cracks a video game and you download it, you have performed theft.

The latter sounds rather like "Handling Stolen Goods". Afterall, the maker of a torrent for whatever could also bought it, cracked it and uploaded it. That means that we're making illegitimate copies from a legitimate purchase, doesn't sound like stealing to me, but if the law says so... o well. Can't do much about that huh?

 

[shadowcaptain]

yes testing a game to see if its worth buying is mostly what i do - the other day for instance i downloadad GRAW 2 - played the first 3 levels then went to work and bought a copy

i have been known to pirate the odd game but tbh i love having the box - on the whole i am not a pirater - mine and my brothers cd and dvd collection is massive

also strange fact - i would download a new film that i havnt seen yet the only films i buy are ones ive sene before - i dont think in my entire 250+ dvd/blu ray collection is a film that i bought that i had not seen before - hence the pirating try before you buy system works - if it is a shit film then i wouldnt buy it anyway - so the makers are not loosing out - if they make decent games/films/music without stipid protection then all would be good

to prove i dont pirate i have 3 copies of mass effect for pc due to the STUPID 3 install limit

 

[Symp4thy]

I pose a question to those who are defending piracy: If it isn't stealing and the companies aren't losing money, than why is it illegal?

Are you trying to pretend that ethics and laws are synonymous with each other? Come on now.

I also don't think anybody is claiming that companies don't lose some money, but exactly how much money is up for debate.

And no, they don't lose profit either. I've never given them my money, and I never had any intention to do so. "You can't lose what you do not have".

But you can't lose what you don't have and you never actually had that money.

Frankly, I pirate practically every game I have. The companies aren't really losing anything, because I wouldn't buy it otherwise.

Well I don't have like £30 to spend on a game. So if I d/l, they don't get my money, but I will tell my friends of the game is any good. If I don't d/l, then they still aren't gonna get my money cause I'm not gonna spend like a months worth of money on one game

Sure I wouldn't own the game if I didn't pirate it but I wouldn't have bought it either so the developer would lose nothing.

You're not stealing any money, they don't own that money yet.

And as far as ethics go, you brought that into the equation not me. Laws are made for a reason. Piracy is illegal. To those who say companies aren't losing money, please explain to me why it's illegal?

And just for the record, I'm not innocent of this crime either. I've pirated music and movies. I try not to do it very often, but I've done it. I just think the people who are trying to justify piracy for any reason are just plain wrong.

 

[Nin]

I dont even realy ever think of pirating as stealing... Like; how dare Itunes ask me to pay $1 per song. If I bought all my music i'd be short like 1k and thats just stupid... Games on the other hand... Idk, honestly I'd rather just deal with not having them.

 

[Dramatic Flare]

You're not stealing any money, they don't own that money yet. Robbing a bank is stealing money, pickpocketing is stealing money. Pirates just copying the orignal, that's a big difference since again, nothing is technically stolen e.a missing from the shelves. The only thing you're really doing, money-wise, is limiting there profits, and that's not illegal. Afterall, not buying stuff is also limiting a developers profit.
The latter does capture the essence: developers have the right to limit distribution, but ofcourse you can't steal that right from them, you can only violate (as in human rights violations) that right. And that's what pirates are doing, they're not stealing but they're violating the rights of developers.

copyright is a system to prevent the stealing of ideas without a creator's consent. The simple fact is that an idea can be stolen as effectively as any hard copy. By law [http://www.copyright.gov/title17/], copyright infringement is essentially the same thing as stealing.
Theft is the taking an object and not paying for it. Theft also counts that if you take something from someone who stole it themselves, it's still stolen property and you have become an accomplice. So, in essence, if someone cracks a video game and you download it, you have performed theft.

The latter sounds rather like "Handling Stolen Goods". Afterall, the maker of a torrent for whatever could also bought it, cracked it and uploaded it. That means that we're making illegitimate copies from a legitimate purchase, doesn't sound like stealing to me, but if the law says so... o well. Can't do much about that huh?

yes, yes you can do much about it.
You can not do it.
That sounds like a something. Don't be a criminal. Of course, I believe everyone should rebel in some fashion, but how about it a way that doesn't prevent people from doing things they love, like making video games?
Great idea.
I should write a book.

 

[Cowabungaa]

And as far as ethics go, you brought that into the equation not me. Laws are made for a reason. Piracy is illegal. To those who say companies aren't losing money, please explain to me why it's illegal?

You can't steal something you don't have, the company doesn't own my money per definition. The only thing we're doing money-wise, is limiting their (finally got the their/they're/there thing right) profits.
PS: For the record, I don't use it as a justification for my piracy acts, I don't really care about the fact that they make loads of money with it.

yes, yes you can do much about it.
You can not do it.
That sounds like a something. Don't be a criminal. Of course, I believe everyone should rebel in some fashion, but how about it a way that doesn't prevent people from doing things they love, like making video games?
Great idea.
I should write a book.

No no you got me wrong I ment you can't do much about the fact that that's the way it stands in the law.

 

[WlknCntrdiction]

I think people probably care abit too much about whether they pirate or not, like it's a status symbol like being a goth or emo. "I don't pirate, I'm good, the rest of you are bad", want a cookie?

 

[Wyatt]

werds

Wyatt, your presence here is a waste of server space. Please leave.

typical. as usual your wrong and lack an argument that is actualy based on truth and facts. i dont think ill leave as long as there are idiots around that make stupid statments, its so much fun to poke holes in the ignorance.

No they don't, it's called COPYright for a reason. Someone buys the game, you copy the game from them. And that's what you're not allowed to do, you can't copy the stuff. Nothing is stolen because technically, nothing is gone, you simply duplicated the game, and that's illegal.

a rose by any other name.

there is several flavors of murder under US law also, there is 1st degree, second degree, manslaughter and so on, in the end though some one is dead , someone else killed them.

when you pirate a game its taking something that doesnt belong to you and not paying for it. that is theft, just because there is again a round of specious arguments that copyright infringment is a different legal term than theft doesnt change the basic facts.

your getting someone else work for free when they have every right and intention of being paid for it.

as i said in another thread, i dont actualy have an issue with piracy due mostly to games companys fucktarded policys and actions. they NEED to be slapped down when the do things like using securom. protecting YOUR work doesnt mean you get too fuck up MY computer.

long winded excuses about how its right, and just, and moral, dont wash for me though. call it what it is, outright theft. and a little theft to counter the companys greed is certianly ok in my book. when someone slap's down companys id be more than willing to slap down pirats at the same time. untill then let the fight continue and we can all watch and see how it will play out.

im not screaming 'hang all pirats' im not calling for a holy crusade to defend the 'poor souls' in the bitty teeny games industry just struggling to put food on their plate. there is LOTS of factors in this subject and to be honist the games industry (as well as music and TV and movies) dont get much of my sympathy at all. thing is though right is right and wrong is wrong, and you dont get too steal something then clame that its ok. piracy of games music etc is theft, your taking someone elses work and not paying them for it. you can jump through all the legal hoops you want and split hairs till your eyes go cross but everyone here, even the most pro piracy person knows its theft.

just admit it and move on.

 

[Samirat]

I just don't quite see how its easier to live with knowing that you've stolen a game than to just go without.

Pirating is not stealing. When you pirate software, you copy it. The one you copy it from still gets to keep theirs. When you steal, the person you steal from loses their copy. Noone loses anything if I copy software, I merely create another of it.

And no, they don't lose profit either. I've never given them my money, and I never had any intention to do so. "You can't lose what you do not have".

Edit: Also, as for the reason for pirating: Consumers get software with copyright protection, shitty internet validation and stuff. Pirates get cracked software, meaning without the annoying protection. Conclusion - if you pirate software, you get a superior product. So what they're doing, in essence, is punishing people for paying for the product by supplying them with an inferior product.

Edit: A prime example is the recent spore release. Buyers get to install it four (?) times, then it's done. A pirate can install it an infinite amount of times.

Further edit: Also, I don't pirate myself. But most of the arguments for not doing so are... really dumb.

If you don't pay, why should you get the product? If you want the enjoyment derived from their property, which they spent money on, why should you get it for free. Pirating is stealing. You get their product, you give nothing back.

 

[Ace of Spades]

If you're going to be a pirate, then you just need to muster up enough effort to not care.
EDIT: Also, does borrowing a game count as pirating it? I'm playing it and I didn't pay for it.

 

[BladePHF]

Deleted comment.
Meh, can't care enough for either side of the topic anyway.

 

[Nomad]

But could it not also be that Human Head's rise is just simply down to being an industry-respected developer in a booming, thriving entertainment medium. Maybe second hand sales had nothing to do with it. After all, it doesn't necessarily take just one flop to sink a studio, and there was plenty of hype around Prey anyways. As I said, maybe the pirates are out to support the studios they love. Or maybe we're just in it for the freebies.

I'm not saying Prey was a success because of the continued activity within their previous titles, I'm saying it certainly helped. I'm still an active part of said community, and I remember that when Prey was released, pretty much all the talk in the servers was about their new game and how everyone bought it. Many of those people also said straight out that their motive for buying the game was that Human Head made it. And many of those people never would've even heard of Human Head before Prey, if it weren't for second hand sales and software piracy. Because Rune is a really, really hard game to come by any other way(in most countries, at least).

As for the motives of software piracy, we're most certainly in it for the freebies. The only thing I'm saying is that software piracy (and second hand gaming) extends the longevity of a game, because it makes it available to the public long after the developer's gone after the next project.

Also, I've noticed that pretty much everyone involved in the greater debate in this thread have stopped giving arguments that piracy is stealing. You've started making arguments that piracy is a crime. And yes, there's no doubt about that. But piracy is, as I've made countless arguments for, not stealing. It's a completely different crime. So as long as you stop calling it stealing, I'm happy. You can go on and on about how it's morally detestable, and I'll even agree on some of your points. But it's not stealing. Just as little as assault is murder.

I'd just like to put this forward: All you people who say "I only pirate because I want to avoid game breaking DRM etc." are kidding yourselves. You could buy the game, then download a crack in order to get around the DRM. This means a smaller download as well.

As for the "Well, I'm copying it, so no one's losing anything, so it's not stealing" argument, think of it this way. If you wrote a book, but instead of buying it, everyone just got photocopies of it, you'd probably be pretty pissed.

... Why would we do that? We'd still be tied to external (illegal) software to be able to run our game. Then it's much easier to just get a pre-cracked copy right away. Also, you're assuming that a crack is simply one edited .exe file, which most of the time isn't the case. Copyright protection these days is so advanced that it often takes rewriting a great multitude of files before it's all cracked and ready to go. And then it's still easier to get the whole thing in one package.

And if I wrote a book, and people photocopied it, I'd feel happy that my work is widely appreciated.

I have a challenge 4 u pro piraters. Learn a programming language then make a short game in full 3d then out the kinks then still tell me the companies still dont deserve the money.

First of all, no. I'm not going to spend that much of my free time to prove a point to you. How about you make a short game in full 3d and then see if you still tell us they deserve the money?

Also, noone's arguing that they don't deserve the money.

I just don't quite see how its easier to live with knowing that you've stolen a game than to just go without.

I did not steal it, i copied it.

and the difference is? you still have it, and you didn't pay for it ;o)

The difference is that one is stealing, and the other is a copyright violation. Two different crimes.

Also, you can't characterize everything you haven't paid for as "stealing". As stated previously, stealing includes someone losing property. In a copyright violation, the "loss" is theoretical - at best. Also, have you never received a birthday gift? You didn't pay for that, you thief.

It is stealing, you are stealing money away from the developer.

... No, I am not breaking into their office and swiping their paychecks. I am in no way stealing their money, because the only money even remotely connected to the issue is my money. And, as I've pointed out to numerous other people who quoted me (might want to read the whole thread before replying), I never gave it to them. Just because I download something, it doesn't mean I'd buy it if I couldn't download. For example, if I were to (hypothetically, since it's a crime and I would never break a law!) download a song with... The Rolling Stones, I might download it because it doesn't cost me anything to do so. If P2P technology didn't exist, I wouldn't get the song at all, because while I think the song's worth $0, I most certainly don't think it's worth $1. Therefore, I wouldn't pay $1 for it even if it was the only way to get the song.

... Am I making myself clear, this time? If I download something, it doesn't mean I'm so desperate to get it I'd pay for it otherwise.

This part goes for everyone:

Copyright infringement is wrong, it is a crime, it is morally detestable and all us pirates are scum of the earth. Fine. Whatever. I'm not opening that can of worms.

But it is not stealing!
Stealing is an entirely different crime! There's a reason for copyright infringement and theft being two different laws. If it were the same thing, it'd be the same law. All it takes for you to be rid of my repetitive rants from this discussion is for you antipirates to admit that even though piracy is wrong and criminal, it's not stealing. Stop assuming that every non-physically hurtful crime equals stealing!

 

[richard misiak]

I know piracy is a crime but I refuse to pay £50 for something that is likey to be crap. The amount of junk being released is apalling, if developers don't get their act toghether they can't complain when they spend millions developing a game and people pirate it because they don't want to give them money for making a crap-fest.

 

[McClaud]

I just don't quite see how its easier to live with knowing that you've stolen a game than to just go without.

I did not steal it, i copied it.

LOL

We have this rule about copyright and plagarism. If you copy it from a licensed production without paying for it, it isn't your copy - the producer still owns rights to it.

Also, you can't characterize everything you haven't paid for as "stealing". As stated previously, stealing includes someone losing property. In a copyright violation, the "loss" is theoretical - at best. Also, have you never received a birthday gift? You didn't pay for that, you thief.

Except your final statement has nothing to do with the subject. Gifts are gifts. Game publishers do not "give" you permission to copy their product without paying for it (unless they explicitly make that statement). There's no gifting going on. So how does the birthday thing tie in? It doesn't.

Taking and using something that does not belong to you is a criminal offense, still punishable by forcing you to pay for it (at best) or going to prison (at worst). Stealing has the same consequences. Don't downplay piracy as something that won't ever equate to stealing, because it has the same consequences and costs producers the same amount of distress.