Transgender and gender roles

[lechat]

i personally don't see much of an issue at all in any side of the debate
as long as you and your partner are happy with whatever junk you are rocking the world should just leave you the fuck alone

Why?

I mean, I can understand reasons why someone would want not to change their body. I have scars across my back that I've chosen not to get address by plastic surgery because ugly though they may be, they say something about who I am and where I've been. But why should someone else be bound by that mentality? We have the ability to alter people's bodies. If people feel they need their bodies altered, at least in this sort of way, I see no reason they should be constrained by the judgment of someone who hasn't had their experience.

nah i'm not saying i am opposed to body modification
all i am saying is if they are happy with their organs and their partner is too then everyone else should stay out of their business and if they want a change they should do that as well

i mention breast augmentation because while at it's heart it is essentially the same thing i consider it as a case of someone caving into social pressure or having self esteem issues which i'll admit pretty much completely contradicts my first statement. breast reduction however serves a practical purpose and i am all in favor of it

 

[Rawne1980]

I was born a man

That must have been one painful birth....

Get it? You said man and not baby meaning fully grown...

It was a funny...

No?

Okay, i'll be leaving then.....

 

[Mr F.]

I smell a shitstorm brewing.

That aside? Your thoughts are pretty much on the mark. Its self explanatory really. If you break down the societal differences between gender, the problems faced by transgender folk should be diminished as a direct result. Yet you hit on another point, very few people ever sit back and think about their gender, their gender roles and how they fit into society.

Gender roles are damaging, reinforcing the differences between gender can be seen to be damaging. However, and it pains me to say this, I simply do not believe that society will change on that fundamental level. Yes, there are lots of transgender people, and society is becoming more accepting (At least in the west) of the issues that they face, but they are still the minority.

In order to do away with gender roles and gendered society we would have to do away with some things that many people refuse to give up: Our sex. For society to no longer be gendered things as fundamental as names would have to be reworked. Some people simply refuse to give up on such fundamentals.

I think I should bail now, I do not want to come across as more informed than I am or say something utterly stupid.

All this is coming from the perspective of a rather confused individual. Doing what most people do, trying to work out if I am strait, bisexual, queer, asexual or simply a psychopath. A rather confused individual who loves studying identity. Reason I threw that last bit in is simply because quite a few people seem to think it neccesary to point out that their thoughts are from a Trans perspective.

 

[Rawne1980]

Thank you for being understanding. Many just try and play target practice with our emotions rather than trying to get to know why we are the way we are.

Some of us "sort of" understand.

I have a cousin i've been close to since we were tiny people and he went through something similar.

I say similar because he was born a she. Even as a young lass she was more male in the things she did, how she talked and acted but she was never happy.

Since going through treatments and surgeries and coming out the other end as he is now he's far happier.

He says he now feels "correct" if that makes sense. I know what he means when he says it but it's a pain in the arse to explain.

 

[an annoyed writer]

Thank you for being understanding. Many just try and play target practice with our emotions rather than trying to get to know why we are the way we are.

Some of us "sort of" understand.

I have a cousin i've been close to since we were tiny people and he went through something similar.

I say similar because he was born a she. Even as a young lass she was more male in the things she did, how she talked and acted but she was never happy.

Since going through treatments and surgeries and coming out the other end as he is now he's far happier.

He says he now feels "correct" if that makes sense. I know what he means when he says it but it's a pain in the arse to explain.

It always is a pain to explain due to the sheer weight of the subject. But thank you as well. Even if its only a vague understanding of us and our motivations, it's still understanding: something I've run into a definite shortage of in my personal life.

 

[Jayemsal]

So, I was browsing stuff to do with gender issues recently (as you do; my friends call me "Oracle" because I always research a variety of things, and then suddenly come out with loads of stuff in my A-Level Sociology class), and there was this article on Jezebel about this 11-year-old transgender girl named Jazz doing a documentary or something. Some of you may have heard it already, and this happened last year - that's not the focus of discussion, however.

Someone made this comment:

I also question how many of transgender experiences would be different if we didn't have such a strong binary that is based, in large part, of physicality. If we accepted gender as a social construct having nothing to do with anatomy, would transgender people still feel physically inadequate with the genitalia and secondary sexual characteristics they have? Could they accept being a woman with a penis? A man with a vagina and breasts? Could we have the emergence of third, fourth, etc. gender identities? Maybe it wouldn't change a lick, but who's to say?

Which made me wonder. This isn't denying gender dysphoria, or anything like that, but I wonder how their experiences towards their situation and decision to, or not to, undergo surgery would change if we just did away with such strong gender roles. Perhaps we'd have more transgender people choosing to not undergo surgery to have the genitalia of their identified gender. Again, not that there's anything wrong with that, nor am I trying to deny the nature of their situation via some "nurture over nature" argrument or whatever...

Anyway, discuss.

Personally...I'm not transgender. Not that I have to be to make a topic about this, though. But I never thought that much about my "maleness" until now. I mean, I have a dick, probably mostly male chromosomes, and everything, and I like what may be considered stereotypically "male" things, such as video games and comic books. And I'm predominantly heterosexual, i.e. attracted to females. And I guess my thought process is "male" too (still thinking about how "male" and how "female" brains can be different, yet both males and females are still just as human as each other). People treat me as a male, and I treat myself as one too. But I guess I wouldn't say no to...branching out a bit. Like, in terms of clothes. Perhaps, even in just an effort of trying to even more understand the experiences of the opposite sex. *shrugs* That's it, really.

So what are your thoughts on this whole can of worms I may've opened?

The idea of changing society to accept trans women as feminine men, and trans men as masculine women seems to have risen from a certain wing of the third wave feminist movement. The idea is that society should be accepting people without forcing them to adhere at all.

I am a transgender woman, I am not a cisgender woman and I never can be. This idea of forcing society to accept me as a feminine man is slightly insulting, though I am unsure of whether those who promote it understand why.

I am not a man.

I would NOT be happy with society accepting me as such, I do not want to be seen as such.

I can understand why they might think this way, but it is rather solipsistic.

 

[Bios06]

Gender roles are damaging, reinforcing the differences between gender can be seen to be damaging. However, and it pains me to say this, I simply do not believe that society will change on that fundamental level. Yes, there are lots of transgender people, and society is becoming more accepting (At least in the west) of the issues that they face, but they are still the minority.
.

Pretty much this. While we can do our best to try to work around society, gender is laid out very simply in black and white terms. While I don't necessarily believe its that concrete, that's simply how it's treated, how people are treated, and how we come up with any sort of a basis to measure masculine and feminine. Again, this is a very flawed way to look at it. Nothing is ever black and white, why would this be?

I do agree, however, with the OP. I think it would be fascinating to see the effects of different attitudes towards any and all forms of sexuality, including trans, gay, bi, etc.

 

[RadioactiveMicrobe]

Is it weird that I still don't understand gender?

Like, the most I got out of it is say, a girl who doesn't like doing girly things. Which I think, "...big deal?"

 

[Beffudled Sheep_v1legacy]

Thank you for being understanding. Many just try and play target practice with our emotions rather than trying to get to know why we are the way we are.

Some of us "sort of" understand.

I have a cousin i've been close to since we were tiny people and he went through something similar.

I say similar because he was born a she. Even as a young lass she was more male in the things she did, how she talked and acted but she was never happy.

Since going through treatments and surgeries and coming out the other end as he is now he's far happier.

He says he now feels "correct" if that makes sense. I know what he means when he says it but it's a pain in the arse to explain.

It always is a pain to explain due to the sheer weight of the subject. But thank you as well. Even if its only a vague understanding of us and our motivations, it's still understanding: something I've run into a definite shortage of in my personal life.

I wish I could understand. I have never felt a sense of not being "complete" and have always been happy with how I was born. If you can try and explain it to me as best you can I'd appreciate it I also have absolutely no personal experience with a transgender person or group, all of my local LGBT groups also lack transgender representation :/

 

[101flyboy]

yes, they are JUST genitals... but think of it this way if you woke up tomorrow without a vagina, but not a penis either...would you feel (at least physically) incomplete? Maybe that's not the best way to explain it, but it's how i feel. I am physically incomplete. I don't NEED a vagina to be happy, but i'd like to look, and feel (physically) like a woman. It's not even a little bit about sex, but being intimate would be a bit easier if i had the right parts.

That's a beautiful way of putting it, awesome!

I'm a gay guy, so I always do my part to defend and speak out for but never speak as a representative of trans men and women as they can and do, do that themselves. But no, OP, I think your view is too simplistic way to look at it without taking everything into account as to why transgender men and women are transgender and why they have sex reassignment surgery.

Although you're very right about gender roles being incredibly strict and ridiculous.

 

[Thaluikhain]

This happens to be a major point for Radical Feminists.

Most RadFems seem to be absurdly transphobic for various reasons, most charitably because the idea of transgenderism is based on the gender binary. OTOH, Dworkin[footnote]Who was very influential amongst radfems, and is notable outside them for being the feminist that you say said something awful when you want to discredit feminism. It's always her for some reason[/footnote] simply believed that once the gender binary was done away with, there'd be no need for transgenderism. IMHO, that's probably an over-simplification (radical feminism is often a bit myopic like that), but nobody can really say for sure.

 

[Starik20X6]

I'm all for transgender people. I can only imagine what it must feel like to be born into the wrong body.

As for the topic at hand? I'm not sure how much 'societal' gender roles impact someone in that regard. Every story I've heard of a transgendered person has started with "I've always known I was trans", so I think it must be something a lot more fundamental/biological than what civilisation has brought.

 

[Little Woodsman]

This may not be strictly on-topic, but I wanted to post to thank all of the transgener people who
have shared/are sharing their experience/feelings/thoughts here, and thank the OP for bringing
the discussion up. I believe that civil discussion, with all parties genuinely seeking to further
their understanding of the subjects is an important tool for improving the situation for everyone.
One of my very best friends is a male-to-female transgender, and everyone in our circle of friends
knew her for about eight years before she came out. The past couple of years have been very difficult
for her, and I am always seeking to further my understanding, support her better, and explain her
situation better to other people.
Once again, my sincere thanks.

 

[Hagi]

still thinking about how "male" and how "female" brains can be different, yet both males and females are still just as human as each other

That's pretty much due to every single brain being different.

The genders do come out with different averages but mostly there's a lot of overlap where individual differences trump gender differences.

There's a few exceptions of course which do influence the brain, such as different quantities of certain hormones, but for most things it's generally little trouble to find a man who's more 'female' than the average woman or vice versa.

 

[Calibanbutcher]

I won't lie, I don't see how anyone can care about what genitals they have as long as they're functional. They have nothing to do with the person you are. I realise I'm probably being ignorant but I just don't understand.

At least for me, it's a sense of completeness. I was born a man, but i have, since age 5, that i was a girl. I'd just like to 100% feel and look on the outside how i have felt on the inside for 35 years.

Seconded. I may be half her age, but yeah, same situation here. Plus I'd like to travel via airliner without drawing any "special attention", if you know what I mean.

No I don't know what you mean, would you care to elaborate that?
I just can't wrap my head around why you would get "special attention" on an airliner just because you happen to be trans.

 

[an annoyed writer]

I wish I could understand. I have never felt a sense of not being "complete" and have always been happy with how I was born. If you can try and explain it to me as best you can I'd appreciate it I also have absolutely no personal experience with a transgender person or group, all of my local LGBT groups also lack transgender representation :/

Alright, well, as I've said it's not the easiest thing to explain, but I'll damn well try.

Okay, for starters, I'm going to assume that you know that there are some principle differences between men's and women's brain chemistry: due to hormonal differences and the like. Why is this important? I'll get back to that in a bit. So the first thing that you're probably asking is how this came about: the truth is that the phenomena that creates us is actually nothing new to the world: our kind have been around for much longer than most would think(Ex: "twin soul" people in Native America, pre-colonization). It's just that the perception of us culturally has shifted to the negative as of late due to the Abrahamic religions' influences and value system.

So what is this phenomena? Right now the answers aren't quite clear, but we've generally narrowed it down to two factors that can cause such a thing: a chromosomal shift, and the results of the in-uetero chemical wash that unborn kids get in the womb. The first is simple: genetically speaking, you are simply predisposed to being a trans person. The second is a little more complex to explain: you see, during development in the womb, the fetus experiences several chemical washes, including hormonal washes. These help build the brain chemistry of the developing child: too much of one chemical, or too little of one, and the developmental process is upset and someone with a different brain chemistry than normal usually comes out. You know how I highlighted the fact that men and women have different brain chemistries? That's important here: when a person affected by these hormonal imbalances develops, they quite literally develop with the mind of one gender and the body of the other. This can have devastating consequences when untreated or opposed: an obscene amount of us have simply self-terminated due to a combination of social pressures and internal pressure. The internal pressure comes from an overhanging feeling of something feeling quite wrong about yourself: your brain is simply not wired to match the body you have. Other disorders can and will intensify this, and depression is almost guaranteed. The reason you don't feel these feelings is simple: your brain chemistry matches your physical body. Consider yourself lucky.


Anyway, to counter these adverse effects we've developed a system that generally starts with therapy, then hormone treatments, then body modification. The idea is to basically reformat the body into a form that matches our brain chemistry: while imperfect and far from the final results that we're reaching for, it's a decent start. The current system has its flaws: basically, the younger you go in, the more you'll get out of it. Start hormone treatments at 10 and you'll look indistinguishable from one of your cisgendered counterparts: only minor surgeries follow. Start later though, and you'll need more and more surgeries as each decade passes, generally speaking. Unfortunately societal pressures push the other way: transphobia is generally something that affects how we can get treatment: parents, peers, and other factors often force us into hiding, as was the case with me. That fact, combined with the general stigma of our kind generally means that even when fully transitioned we don't often mention it. That's why there isn't a whole lot of trans representation in many LGBT groups: most of us prefer to live "stealth", or quietly, only letting those closest to us know of our trans status. Also notable is the fact that other types of people in LGBT groups can be as hostile, if not more so, than straight people. I've been called a"gay man rejecting himself" before, even though my primary sexual interest isn't even men, and some rather "colorful" lesbian individuals have called me a "girly man-whore" over it.

I hope that clears up some things for you. I know it was something of a long read, but like I said the breadth of the subject warrants it. If you have any more questions feel free to ask.

 

[an annoyed writer]

I won't lie, I don't see how anyone can care about what genitals they have as long as they're functional. They have nothing to do with the person you are. I realise I'm probably being ignorant but I just don't understand.

At least for me, it's a sense of completeness. I was born a man, but i have, since age 5, that i was a girl. I'd just like to 100% feel and look on the outside how i have felt on the inside for 35 years.

Seconded. I may be half her age, but yeah, same situation here. Plus I'd like to travel via airliner without drawing any "special attention", if you know what I mean.

No I don't know what you mean, would you care to elaborate that?
I just can't wrap my head around why you would get "special attention" on an airliner just because you happen to be trans.

Then you don't seem to be familiar with the TSA full body scanners that they have: these build a full 3D model of your body and the guards can, for all intents and purposes, see you completely naked. Some people have prejudices that get in the way of doing their jobs: imagine being a transitioning person: physically speaking you don't match their criteria of the target gender, and thus it paints a target on your head in their eyes. You know what happens when such people have poor impulse control? They assault people like me. Do you like getting your ass kicked? I don't.

 

[Jenvas1306]

well, it would be nice if we hadnt had those social gender roles. It would make the life of a lot of people easier. That would solve my problem of being transgender, but I am also transsexual. So for me to have a fullfilled sexlife, I need genitals that work in a female way. I remember the suffering the higher testosterone level and incapability to serve certain needs caused me, even the way my body was born was never disgusting to me, just not right for me.
Its also not just a physical thing, I feel more compleet the way my body is now and being able to be like that with my beloved boyfriend is something I would deeply miss.
So thanks to great german surgeons and their effort for improvement.

 

[Coppernerves]

I wish I could understand. I have never felt a sense of not being "complete" and have always been happy with how I was born. If you can try and explain it to me as best you can I'd appreciate it I also have absolutely no personal experience with a transgender person or group, all of my local LGBT groups also lack transgender representation :/

*snip*

Go back a few posts for what I snipped.

No really, go see it, first wall of text I could actually be bothered to read, very interesting.

So people are born with ideas about what their body should be like?

I've heard that amputees often feel a kind of "phantom limb" do people with mind and body of different genders get something like that?