Transgender and gender roles

[Lieju]

I have had discussions about this with transsexual and transgendered people.

Is it weird that I still don't understand gender?

Like, the most I got out of it is say, a girl who doesn't like doing girly things. Which I think, "...big deal?"

That's what baffles me. I don't know what it feels like to feel like a girl. I currently have a female body, but if I woke up tomorrow and had a male body I would of course be surprised, but then I would continue my life as if very little had changed- because in reality very little would have changed. I mean, they're just genitals, aren't they?

P.S. Thank you for taking the time to explain this to me.

I'm naturally like this. As a child, I had trouble telling if people were male or female and I didn't understand why it mattered to people. But I was under all kinds of pressure from my environment to act in a certain way (as I was a girl) that I had issues with coming to terms with being a woman. If there wouldn't have been such strict gender-roles, I would have been fine.

I've always felt that I'd be equally okay with being a guy, it doesn't matter all that much to me. had I been born to a society with extreme gender-roles, maybe I would have grown up to be totally transsexual? Who knows.

I believe that there are different levels of trans-people. Some would have always felt that there was something wrong with their body, some have biological predisposition for it that is affected by the environment, and how bad it becomes.

But there are definitely people who feel there is something wrong with their bodies. I have talked to transsexuals who have told me how they only felt like themselves after starting the hormone-therapy, or how they'd alway felt like there was something wrong with their body.

But strict gender-roles will definitely make the life more difficult to those who don't fit into them, and make it more difficult to tell what the root problem is, and to deal with it.

That's why there isn't a whole lot of trans representation in many LGBT groups: most of us prefer to live "stealth", or quietly, only letting those closest to us know of our trans status. Also notable is the fact that other types of people in LGBT groups can be as hostile, if not more so, than straight people. I've been called a"gay man rejecting himself" before, even though my primary sexual interest isn't even men, and some rather "colorful" lesbian individuals have called me a "girly man-whore" over it.

LGBT-groups I hang out with are welcoming to trans-sexual people as well, so depends on the group. Those I'm familiar with more define themselves as groups for any kind of people who don't feel like they fit to the hetero-mold.

I think the probelm with transpeople dealing with homo-sexuals comes from the difference in their problems. Transsexual people are sick, gays are told they are sick.
So a lot of the kind of support gay-people need, being told it's okay to be the way they are, will only annoy or anger transsexual people. And it doesn't help either that a lot of people don't seem to know the difference between transsexuals and homosexuals. (Including people who struggle with problems like this, it's not like they will automatically know 'I'm gay', or 'I'm trassexual', you need time to figure that out, everyone needs time to figure out their sexuality when they're growing up.)

I can't count the times I've been told "sometimes a soul/mind ends up in a wrong body" as an explanation to homosexuality, and for some reason, some people consider it wrong for people to love the same sex, but not if one of them is actually transsexual. And even point out to bi-sexuals and transsexuals as an argument against gay-rights.

But taking that frustration out on transsexual people is obviously wrong.
Similarly, in my experience, transsexual people can be hostile to gays who are just trying to help, and some gays would just rather be in a group where they can be away from problems transsexual people bring with them.

Quite a lot of problems come from people not understand each other.

Also LGBT-groups can feel being under stress from the society and turn against those that they feel will be harmful to their rights, which is generally sad to see.

 

[Angie7F]

I am not sure because I am not a transgender, nor have I wanted to be one, but I think even if you are not transgender many people can feel like they are in the wrong body.
Gender roles can add to the discomfort and if any procedures can help them match the inside with the outside, then I think it worth doing.

 

[an annoyed writer]

I wish I could understand. I have never felt a sense of not being "complete" and have always been happy with how I was born. If you can try and explain it to me as best you can I'd appreciate it I also have absolutely no personal experience with a transgender person or group, all of my local LGBT groups also lack transgender representation :/

*snip*

See previous post for what I snipped.

No really, go see it, first wall of text I could actually be bothered to read, very interesting.

So people are born with ideas about what their body should be like?

I've heard that amputees often feel a kind of "phantom limb" do people with mind and body of different genders get something like that?

Pretty much, yeah. That feeling is something of a comparable phenomena. The original body's dimensions feel awkward to someone who is afflicted with Gender Identity Disorder: the more in-line the physical form can be brought to with the mental "blueprint", the better. Most people don't feel it due to their minds and bodies matching their established "blueprint".

 

[Calibanbutcher]

I won't lie, I don't see how anyone can care about what genitals they have as long as they're functional. They have nothing to do with the person you are. I realise I'm probably being ignorant but I just don't understand.

At least for me, it's a sense of completeness. I was born a man, but i have, since age 5, that i was a girl. I'd just like to 100% feel and look on the outside how i have felt on the inside for 35 years.

Seconded. I may be half her age, but yeah, same situation here. Plus I'd like to travel via airliner without drawing any "special attention", if you know what I mean.

No I don't know what you mean, would you care to elaborate that?
I just can't wrap my head around why you would get "special attention" on an airliner just because you happen to be trans.

Then you don't seem to be familiar with the TSA full body scanners that they have: these build a full 3D model of your body and the guards can, for all intents and purposes, see you completely naked. Some people have prejudices that get in the way of doing their jobs: imagine being a transitioning person: physically speaking you don't match their criteria of the target gender, and thus it paints a target on your head in their eyes. You know what happens when such people have poor impulse control? They assault people like me. Do you like getting your ass kicked? I don't.

So it's not the airliner but rather airport security.
That one I can get my head around, but the airliner part had my wondering if maybe you get special meals or drinks or some sort of secret handshake in-flight.


Joking aside:
It sucks that the TSA doesn't seem to be ready, willing and able to do their jobs properly and rather decides to go against those who are different.


(And to answer your question: I do not particularly enjoy getting my ass kicked in a public setting)

 

[an annoyed writer]

So it's not the airliner but rather airport security.
That one I can get my head around, but the airliner part had my wondering if maybe you get special meals or drinks or some sort of secret handshake in-flight.


Joking aside:
It sucks that the TSA doesn't seem to be ready, willing and able to do their jobs properly and rather decides to go against those who are different.


(And to answer your question: I do not particularly enjoy getting my ass kicked in a public setting)

I'm glad to have cleared that up for you. And to be clear: the TSA may not be responsible for the discrimination in of itself: it's the employees it hires, and their individual viewpoints influence on how they work. You can make all of the rules and regulations in the world, but the truth is that bullies are going to be bullies. Luckily in most sanely handled cases their poor impulse control is punished in some way. Unfortunately we've yet to come to an ideal situation in regards to that.

 

[Lieju]

the TSA may not be responsible for the discrimination in of itself: it's the employees it hires, and their individual viewpoints influence on how they work. You can make all of the rules and regulations in the world, but the truth is that bullies are going to be bullies. Luckily in most sanely handled cases their poor impulse control is punished in some way. Unfortunately we've yet to come to an ideal situation in regards to that.

Airport security can be kind of...
I'm sure a lot of them are very good people, but it's always the ones who let the power get to their heads who you remember.
Just ask anyone who even looks like an arab or has a name similar to that...
But, to play Devil's advocate, they are expected to find stuff that's out of the norm, and they might not necessarily realise what they're looking at.
Maybe they think what they're seeing could be a bomb, or something, I'm not sure how something like wrapping your breasts might look like on the scanner.

I think there's a risk of becoming paranoid if you face persecution and start seeing things that aren't there. I know it has happeed to me. I have been assaulted for being gay, among other things, and when people are jerks to me, I have to wonder, whether they're being jerks to me because of what I am, or just because they're jerks to everyone. Or have legitimate reasons.

 

[J Tyran]

I won't lie, I don't see how anyone can care about what genitals they have as long as they're functional. They have nothing to do with the person you are. I realise I'm probably being ignorant but I just don't understand.

At least for me, it's a sense of completeness. I was born a man, but i have, since age 5, that i was a girl. I'd just like to 100% feel and look on the outside how i have felt on the inside for 35 years.

Seconded. I may be half her age, but yeah, same situation here. Plus I'd like to travel via airliner without drawing any "special attention", if you know what I mean.

No I don't know what you mean, would you care to elaborate that?
I just can't wrap my head around why you would get "special attention" on an airliner just because you happen to be trans.

Then you don't seem to be familiar with the TSA full body scanners that they have: these build a full 3D model of your body and the guards can, for all intents and purposes, see you completely naked. Some people have prejudices that get in the way of doing their jobs: imagine being a transitioning person: physically speaking you don't match their criteria of the target gender, and thus it paints a target on your head in their eyes. You know what happens when such people have poor impulse control? They assault people like me. Do you like getting your ass kicked? I don't.

Thats awful, I was trying to figure out why it would be a problem until I saw your post. It honestly didn't occur to me that a government agency would behave like that, I figured there would be rules on equality and that a government agency has no right to tell anyone what clothes they should be wearing. You must face so many issues in life like this, I cannot imagine how tough it must be at times.

Edit

And to be clear: the TSA may not be responsible for the discrimination in of itself: it's the employees it hires, and their individual viewpoints influence on how they work. You can make all of the rules and regulations in the world, but the truth is that bullies are going to be bullies. Luckily in most sanely handled cases their poor impulse control is punished in some way. Unfortunately we've yet to come to an ideal situation in regards to that.

Read this, so its down to individuals instead of the agency as a whole. Still a problem you are left to deal with though, its still unpleasant when the bigots manage to behave themselves but you can feel the hatred coming off them.

 

[an annoyed writer]

Then you don't seem to be familiar with the TSA full body scanners that they have: these build a full 3D model of your body and the guards can, for all intents and purposes, see you completely naked. Some people have prejudices that get in the way of doing their jobs: imagine being a transitioning person: physically speaking you don't match their criteria of the target gender, and thus it paints a target on your head in their eyes. You know what happens when such people have poor impulse control? They assault people like me. Do you like getting your ass kicked? I don't.

Thats awful, I was trying to figure out why it would be a problem until I saw your post. It honestly didn't occur to me that a government agency would behave like that, I figured there would be rules on equality and that a government agency has no right to tell anyone what clothes they should be wearing. You must face so many issues in life like this, I cannot imagine how tough it must be at times.

Edit

And to be clear: the TSA may not be responsible for the discrimination in of itself: it's the employees it hires, and their individual viewpoints influence on how they work. You can make all of the rules and regulations in the world, but the truth is that bullies are going to be bullies. Luckily in most sanely handled cases their poor impulse control is punished in some way. Unfortunately we've yet to come to an ideal situation in regards to that.

Read this, so its down to individuals instead of the agency as a whole. Still a problem you are left to deal with though, its still unpleasant when the bigots manage to behave themselves but you can feel the hatred coming off them.

It is an unfortunate consequence of my existence, and it's not going to change anytime soon. Luckily there is hope: Change will come if we will it, and having open discussions like this thread really help. Like I've said before, I'd be happy to provide answers to any questions regarding the subject. I can't speak for all, but I can provide a decent snapshot of what goes on with us and how things affect the average trans person.

 

[an annoyed writer]

LGBT-groups I hang out with are welcoming to trans-sexual people as well, so depends on the group. Those I'm familiar with more define themselves as groups for any kind of people who don't feel like they fit to the hetero-mold.

I think the probelm with transpeople dealing with homo-sexuals comes from the difference in their problems. Transsexual people are sick, gays are told they are sick.
So a lot of the kind of support gay-people need, being told it's okay to be the way they are, will only annoy or anger transsexual people. And it doesn't help either that a lot of people don't seem to know the difference between transsexuals and homosexuals. (Including people who struggle with problems like this, it's not like they will automatically know 'I'm gay', or 'I'm trassexual', you need time to figure that out, everyone needs time to figure out their sexuality when they're growing up.)

I can't count the times I've been told "sometimes a soul/mind ends up in a wrong body" as an explanation to homosexuality, and for some reason, some people consider it wrong for people to love the same sex, but not if one of them is actually transsexual. And even point out to bi-sexuals and transsexuals as an argument against gay-rights.

But taking that frustration out on transsexual people is obviously wrong.
Similarly, in my experience, transsexual people can be hostile to gays who are just trying to help, and some gays would just rather be in a group where they can be away from problems transsexual people bring with them.

Quite a lot of problems come from people not understand each other.

Also LGBT-groups can feel being under stress from the society and turn against those that they feel will be harmful to their rights, which is generally sad to see.

You hit it the nail right on the head there with the point that there's a lack of understanding that the issues my kind face are different from those that homosexuals and bisexuals face. the problem is that everyone always assumes, and it doesn't help anyone. The group that I saw lacked the cohesion and capability of being able to discuss the problems and s a result it wasn't exactly the most successful group out there. I decided I wanted none of that poisonous atmosphere and left. I'm glad my experiences don't speak for all.

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

I have a very hard time considering the subject to be honest as it requires I start from a proposition I simply cannot accept. In my case it would be "I should not be male". I can say that, but there is no known power in the world that would make me believe it. The closest I've come to any sort of consensus is simply that, no matter how far you take the procedure, you won't ever actually be the gender you self identify and as a result I take mild offense when someone attempts to officially identify as something other than their actual gender.

But, as I said to start, I can't come to a cogent opinion on the subject in general simply because I cannot place myself in a situation where I can understand. It's like trying to cook with coconut - I simply can't do it because I have no idea what the hell makes people think that vial stuff is meant for human consumption.

 

[J Tyran]

snip for length

You hit it the nail right on the head there with the point that there's a lack of understanding that the issues my kind face are different from those that homosexuals and bisexuals face. the problem is that everyone always assumes, and it doesn't help anyone. The group that I saw lacked the cohesion and capability of being able to discuss the problems and s a result it wasn't exactly the most successful group out there. I decided I wanted none of that poisonous atmosphere and left. I'm glad my experiences don't speak for all.

It is sad that one of the groups you think would have had enough understanding to educate themselves before acting like bigots treated you that way. I am not that well educated about the issues and challenges you face in life or even the reasons you are who you are but even I know its nothing to do with sexuality and its about gender, although I am guessing sexuality is another layer added on top and mixed in with all the other issues too.

 

[Uhura]

The closest I've come to any sort of consensus is simply that, no matter how far you take the procedure, you won't ever actually be the gender you self identify and as a result I take mild offense when someone attempts to officially identify as something other than their actual gender.

I don't understand. Why would you take offense when it doesn't directly affect you in any way?

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

The closest I've come to any sort of consensus is simply that, no matter how far you take the procedure, you won't ever actually be the gender you self identify and as a result I take mild offense when someone attempts to officially identify as something other than their actual gender.

I don't understand. Why would you take offense when it doesn't directly affect you in any way?

It is a statement that I see as being untrue. Biologically, hell, genetically at the least, you are whatever gender you are. That is not mutable. Introducing yourself as something other than what you are because that's what you think you are makes the entire purpose of identifying a gender largely meaningless.

It's the sort of offense you take if someone says "the sky is purple". Basically, I'm rejecting the proposition because the fundamental idea is alien to me.

 

[Thaluikhain]

I think the probelm with transpeople dealing with homo-sexuals comes from the difference in their problems. Transsexual people are sick, gays are told they are sick.
So a lot of the kind of support gay-people need, being told it's okay to be the way they are, will only annoy or anger transsexual people. And it doesn't help either that a lot of people don't seem to know the difference between transsexuals and homosexuals. (Including people who struggle with problems like this, it's not like they will automatically know 'I'm gay', or 'I'm trassexual', you need time to figure that out, everyone needs time to figure out their sexuality when they're growing up.)

IMHO, it's often much simpler than that. Lots of straight people are horribly transphobic, lots of gay people are horribly transphobic the exact same way.

A lot of people say they understand being oppressed for X because they've been oppressed for Y, and there's some truth in that. But then a lot of people angry with oppression are only angry with the oppression that they personally suffer for, and are willing to ignore or join in with the oppression of others.

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

Well, to be honest, I think it's hormones rather than chromosomes (I don't think medical science is technologically developed enough yet to change that) that determines your gender...or sex. Whatever (I know the difference between them, but it's all about matching them up, right?).

While various physical and mental aspects are affected by hormones, the genetic component is what drives the production of those hormones. And given that correcting for that requires (at least my understanding asserts this) a regular regimen of drugs to essentially introduce a different chemical state than your body would produce of it's own accord, it seems the genetic component is especially important.

Beyond all of that, there are various physiological considerations but my knowledge of that are is sadly incomplete save for the fact that I've seen plenty of people who easily pass for the gender they identify as.

Also, why would you take "mild offence"? If they believe themselves to be whatever gender, then the only option you should take is to treat them with respect, and not act like a jerk, say, "Once a dude, always a dude, 'cos of chromosomes, hurr hurr!", and make an innocent person feel like shit. It's just as bad as people denying bisexuality, because "you have to be one or the other".

Taking offense and lacking tact are two very different things. That I don't like that identification for what amount to entirely silly sentiments doesn't enter into the fact that their decision doesn't affect me in the slightest.

Can I say that I take "mild offence" at your "mild offence", because you're coming across as a not-so-latent bigot right now? But "ignorance is bliss", etc.

You are free to take offense. Of course, then you and I end up in a bit of a circular cycle of offense taking wherein you take offense because you disagree with my statement regarding reactions based on personal perception based upon the same criteria.

 

[MakerofMysteries]

The only way gender should matter is the biological way; i.e. only your biological gender should determine if you're male, female or hermaphrodite. Social gender - i.e. gender roles - are completely bloody useless.

Say that you're quite buff, you drink beer and you talk in a loud, deep voice, you wear pants and you like sports. This is typical "masculine" behaviour but it does not automatically mean that you're a male of the species Homo Sapiens: this is (in any sane society) perfectly acceptable behaviour for a woman as well. You are only to be defined as male or female (or neither) by your genitalia.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQvnZOR_oIk

Your biological gender DOES matter in matters of medicine and certain neurological behaviours can be linked to gender as well. However, if you let your gender define you as a person... well, aren't you just a bit of a fucking bore? Call that a personality, you shallow person?

Now, those are my thoughts. Hope it wasn't offensive to anyone.

 

[Lieju]

I think the probelm with transpeople dealing with homo-sexuals comes from the difference in their problems. Transsexual people are sick, gays are told they are sick.
So a lot of the kind of support gay-people need, being told it's okay to be the way they are, will only annoy or anger transsexual people. And it doesn't help either that a lot of people don't seem to know the difference between transsexuals and homosexuals. (Including people who struggle with problems like this, it's not like they will automatically know 'I'm gay', or 'I'm trassexual', you need time to figure that out, everyone needs time to figure out their sexuality when they're growing up.)

IMHO, it's often much simpler than that. Lots of straight people are horribly transphobic, lots of gay people are horribly transphobic the exact same way.

A lot of people say they understand being oppressed for X because they've been oppressed for Y, and there's some truth in that. But then a lot of people angry with oppression are only angry with the oppression that they personally suffer for, and are willing to ignore or join in with the oppression of others.

There's some truth to that, but when people don't understand each other, even honest attempts to help can end up offending.
Part of the problem is lumping transsexuals together with gays and bisexuals. It's not the same thing, and solutions offered for others (like seeking medical help) can be horribly offending to others.

In my experience, opressed people can turn on other opressed people because they are scared that assosiating with them will end up harming them.
For example, some gays dislike bisexuals because they are afraid that they will be used to support an argument that gays can be 'cured', or to deny things like gay-marriage. Which happens, but you should be mad with idiots making such claims, rather than bisexuals themselves.

 

[Aaron Sylvester]

It is a statement that I see as being untrue. Biologically, hell, genetically at the least, you are whatever gender you are. That is not mutable. Introducing yourself as something other than what you are because that's what you think you are makes the entire purpose of identifying a gender largely meaningless.

It's the sort of offense you take if someone says "the sky is purple". Basically, I'm rejecting the proposition because the fundamental idea is alien to me.

This is somewhat how I feel.

The issue especially becomes evident in the realm of sports, where there is a line drawn between male and female participants. If I recall correctly there was a champion athlete (100/200m sprint I think) who stirred up controversy when "she" was actually found to be a "he". A lot of people agreed that it didn't matter whether the guy believed he was a woman and had gone as far as gender surgery, his body/muscles still had the physical performance capability of a man (i.e. superior than a woman) and that shit was simply not acceptable. The boundaries could keep getting pushed until whole groups of men claiming to be women started applying for female events leaving actual females in the dust, and rendering the whole purpose of gender segregation in sports pointless. Forget opening a can of worms, that would be like opening a can of black-hole singularities.

Even our brains (by which I mean most "normal" brains) are incredibly hard-wired to subconsciously associate EVERY person we meet with their gender first. Age is a close second, but gender always comes first. Even when talking on the phone we first identify the voice as male or female. Most people WILL look twice if they notice a person whom they can't immediately identify as male or female, it will send a whole bunch of confused messages to their head - they don't know the person, they probably will never see them again, but the brain still needs the question to be answered...it's quite an interesting phenomenon

 

[maidenm]

I'm a woman myself, and quite comfotable with it but my childhood friend came out as transsexual about one and a half year ago so while I don't have any experience I have at least a close friend to look to for it. Here's what I've gathered from growing up with her-soon-to-be-him.

The gender role, social gender, giryness, manliness or whatever you call it, the social binary code we use to define male and female personalities are compleatly and fully irrelevant if you are transexual. Becuase that's all about how you act, it's in your head.

The physical gender, that's what matters here. Looking at yourself and thinking "this is me", being able to feel/look like you think you where supposed to.

So. The concept of male and female roles has no real inpact on trangender-oriented people, in the same way manly and femenine have no inpact on your sexuality. A lot of people might think it does, but these people can call a pear an apple and still be as correct. So, I believe transgender people will still feel like their bodies are... incomplete, for want of a better word, even if we lived in a society where we where all refered to as humans, without drawing attention to how this human looks.

And to all of you trans people in this thread (and elsewhere), you all deserve a big pat on the back for going through your lives as you want. Takes some real courage, no matter how accepting people around you might be.

 

[Beffudled Sheep_v1legacy]

snip

So it is a biological issue then? Okay that was the part I was most confused about. I was under the assumption (due to lack of contact, explanation and decent research) that it wasn't a biological issue at all and more of a purely mental one. Thank you for taking the time to explain I actually understand the whole thing a lot more now.

Another thing I don't understand (and never want to) is the hatred and discrimination that gets thrown towards transgender people :/
People suck... Well I just know that I'll be campaigning for your (as well as the other facets of the LGBT movement) rights to live as you wish without the discrimination and other social stigmas getting thrown in your face. I hate discrimination...

And this is a bit of a personal question and you don't have to answer if you don't want to but... How does sex feel for both you and your partner? Unpleasant, different, more or less the same?

Thank you for taking the time
Oh and don't worry about long reads haha, I'm the type that reads War and Peace for fun xD