Tropes vs Women SECOND VIDEO - "Damsel in Distress: Part 2"

Recommended Videos

ThrobbingEgo

New member
Nov 17, 2008
2,765
0
0
Tohuvabohu said:
Ronack said:
Glad to see that there are still DUDE BROS out there that can't handle a poignant conversation, instead choosing to falsely flag an innocent video and get it pulled down. What would we do without them? Oh, right, advance as a human species.
Surely, this could've been easily avoided and such a thing would've never happened if she never closed her comment box and stifled all discussion in the first place!




I almost, almost hurled a beehive of angry words at you.

It's another great video that internet peeps are going to irrationally hate, despite the last 5 minutes (especially the last two) explicitly countering every argument that said peeps are going to make based on 2nd hand retellings of the video they can't stand to watch.

I'm kinda sad for us as a species.
 

LetalisK

New member
May 5, 2010
2,769
0
0
Estelindis said:
Tohuvabohu said:
Surely, this could've been easily avoided and such a thing would've never happened if she never closed her comment box and stifled all discussion in the first place!
I'm not under the impression that closing comments is a violation of the terms of service and thus a reason to take the video down. I mean, obviously, if it was then YouTube wouldn't even give the option for that!
If you look very closely, I think you will notice a tongue firmly implanted in a cheek. >.>
 

generals3

New member
Mar 25, 2009
1,198
0
0
Ok, so i watched it. And it seems she made the same mistakes she did in the first one. Making unfounded claims about the social impact of the tropes in games on people in RL. Firstly about the damsel in distress trope (already heavily debated after her first video so i'll skip that one). But than the trope of women in a frigde, blatant misogyny? Really? So the fact that developers think women's live's are more important and as a consequence more likely to cause drama is misogynistic? The word she was looking for is misandry.

And oh-oh-oh, even if the violence against a woman makes sense due to plot devices its use is not justified? Wut? I thought that would be the ultimate justification. And than we go talk about statistics, nvm the fact men are actually more likely to be killed, but oh well. And these games trivialize violence against women? Bollocks, the mere fact they usually use it to get people emotional means they are doing the exact opposite.

She made some interesting observations about the wide use of the tropes, but she should really stop making pseudo-psychological claims about videogames. Not only does it often not make any sense but it's also unproven and just causing controversy for nothing.

Anyway, videogames are meant to be used as an escapist tool. I don't want videogames to be reflexions of real life political correct behavior. I want games to be fun. If a damsel in the fridge being euthanized after being mutilated by her husband somehow makes sense in the game's story and goes in line with the mechanics, than so be it.
 

Tony2077

New member
Dec 19, 2007
2,984
0
0
well said general

she has a point but she seems to have hidden it somewhere. some of the stuff she says I'm not sure where she got it from context is important and the baseless accusations don't help her any
 

ThrobbingEgo

New member
Nov 17, 2008
2,765
0
0
generals3 said:
Ok, so i watched it. And it seems she made the same mistakes she did in the first one. Making unfounded claims about the social impact of the tropes in games on people in RL. Firstly about the damsel in distress trope (already heavily debated after her first video so i'll skip that one). But than the trope of women in a frigde, blatant misogyny? Really? So the fact that developers think women's live's are more important and as a consequence more likely to cause drama is misogynistic? The word she was looking for is misandry.
I don't think you watched the last five minutes of her video. It pretty much contradicts everything you think/claim about the video, point for point. You might want to revisit that part.

Capcha: Window Dressing.
 

generals3

New member
Mar 25, 2009
1,198
0
0
ThrobbingEgo said:
generals3 said:
Ok, so i watched it. And it seems she made the same mistakes she did in the first one. Making unfounded claims about the social impact of the tropes in games on people in RL. Firstly about the damsel in distress trope (already heavily debated after her first video so i'll skip that one). But than the trope of women in a frigde, blatant misogyny? Really? So the fact that developers think women's live's are more important and as a consequence more likely to cause drama is misogynistic? The word she was looking for is misandry.
I don't think you watched the last five minutes of her video.

Capcha: Window Dressing.
I did, but the last five minutes don't suddenly make the rest disappear. Shortly discussing the effects it may have on males , which i disagree with for the same reasons by the way, or trying to slightly backtrack on previously made statements doesn't make the blatantly wrong claims go away. (this is why i wrote my initial post as i was watching the video. This allowed me to avoid the bias of only focusing on the end (which you're more likely to remember if you post after watching the whole video))
 

ThrobbingEgo

New member
Nov 17, 2008
2,765
0
0
generals3 said:
ThrobbingEgo said:
generals3 said:
Ok, so i watched it. And it seems she made the same mistakes she did in the first one. Making unfounded claims about the social impact of the tropes in games on people in RL. Firstly about the damsel in distress trope (already heavily debated after her first video so i'll skip that one). But than the trope of women in a frigde, blatant misogyny? Really? So the fact that developers think women's live's are more important and as a consequence more likely to cause drama is misogynistic? The word she was looking for is misandry.
I don't think you watched the last five minutes of her video.

Capcha: Window Dressing.
I did, but the last five minutes don't suddenly make the rest disappear. Shortly discussing the effects it may have on males, which i disagree with for the same reasons by the way, doesn't make the blatantly wrong claims go away.
No, but it explains:

1) That these women's lives aren't more 'valuable' than men; these women are things that have been taken from men. That's one point nixed.
2) You said that the word she's looking for is misandry? What on earth are you talking about? She outright says that these portrayals also are outright limiting representations of men; they are limitations on the roles we play and the ways we react to the loss of loved ones. She's mentioned similar ways in which feminism deals with how men suffer because of patriarchy in at least three of her other videos.
3) In terms of justification on a case-by-case basis, she may as well have outright said the following: the problem isn't that any individual game uses the damsel in distress trope, it's that the trope remains obligatory throughout the medium.
4) I don't even want to get into the difference between claiming that a storyteller is cashing in on patriarchal hegemony and going into 'hypodermic needle' media effects theory. I don't have the patience for it. But Anita mentioned that she's talking about the first, not the second.

Capcha: Live. Love. Internet.
 

Erttheking

Member
Legacy
Oct 5, 2011
10,845
1
3
Country
United States
"Sigh" thread is only two pages long and I already see entire posts completely demonizing people that don't agree with the poster. This happens EVERY TIME!

This is why we don't don't get thoughtful debate out of this videos! People don't want to sit down and debate about it, they want to insult people for having the poor judgement to have a different opinion!
 

generals3

New member
Mar 25, 2009
1,198
0
0
ThrobbingEgo said:
No, but it explains:

1) That these women's lives aren't more 'valuable' than men; these women are things that have been taken from men. That's one point nixed.
Which is a bizarre statement considering the argument you try to refute. Why is it women who are always taken from men and not men? Why would a dev choose to use a women to appeal to emotions instead of a man? It's because women are presented as being worth more.

2) You said that the word she's looking for is misandry? What on earth are you talking about? She outright says that these portrayals also are outright limiting representations of men; they are limitations on the roles we play and the ways we react to the loss of loved ones.
Correct but irrelevant to the part i was criticizing. She was referring to these female tropes as misogynistic. This while the trope is actually based on the whole idea that a woman's life is more precious. Maybe i missed the day that misogyny was defined as "caring for a woman's life more than a man's" but if we're going to socially judge the trope misandry is the word that she was looking for.

3) In terms of justification on a case-by-case basis, she may as well have outright said the following: the problem isn't that any individual game uses the damsel in distress trope, it's that the trope remains obligatory throughout the medium.
First of all, she didn't use the word obligatory. Which would have been a huge mistake since many games don't use it. It's widely used yes. But so what? It may get old, tiring, boring and it's fine to make those claims. But she shouldn't engage in ridiculous pseudo psychology and try to make the overuse of said trope appear "evil". I want devs to rely less on tropes because they can come up with stories which don't need them, not because it's "evil" and they forced them out and make stories which are potentially worse because they work less without the tropes.
 

ThrobbingEgo

New member
Nov 17, 2008
2,765
0
0
erttheking said:
"Sigh" thread is only two pages long and I already see entire posts completely demonizing people that don't agree with the poster. This happens EVERY TIME!

This is why we don't don't get thoughtful debate out of this videos! People don't want to sit down and debate about it, they want to insult people for having the poor judgement to have a different opinion!
That's funny. There are many situations in which poor judgement will result in differing opinion.
 

Erttheking

Member
Legacy
Oct 5, 2011
10,845
1
3
Country
United States
ThrobbingEgo said:
erttheking said:
"Sigh" thread is only two pages long and I already see entire posts completely demonizing people that don't agree with the poster. This happens EVERY TIME!

This is why we don't don't get thoughtful debate out of this videos! People don't want to sit down and debate about it, they want to insult people for having the poor judgement to have a different opinion!
That's funny. There are many situations in which poor judgement will result in differing opinion.
I just wish we could sit down for five minutes and talk like rational Human beings without blowing up over someone liking/not liking these videos. We Humans are a very diverse people, we're not all going to think the same thing.
 

ThrobbingEgo

New member
Nov 17, 2008
2,765
0
0
generals3 said:
ThrobbingEgo said:
No, but it explains:

1) That these women's lives aren't more 'valuable' than men; these women are things that have been taken from men. That's one point nixed.
Which is also a bizarre statement which somehow destroys itself. Why is it women who are always taken from men and not men? Why would a dev choose to use a women to appeal to emotions instead of a man? Think about it and see why the argument destroys itself when taking into account the whole context.
These women aren't valued as people, they're valued as possessions, belonging to a man. Take that, along with the context of a history where women were traded and/or married off to men as possessions.

2) You said that the word she's looking for is misandry? What on earth are you talking about? She outright says that these portrayals also are outright limiting representations of men; they are limitations on the roles we play and the ways we react to the loss of loved ones.
Correct but irrelevant to the part i was criticizing. She was referring to these female tropes as misogynistic. This while the trope is actually based on the whole idea that a woman's life is more precious. Maybe i missed the day that misogyny was defined as "caring for a woman's life more than a man's" but if we're going to socially judge the trope misandry is the word that she was looking for.
If feminism is the radical notion that women are people, misogyny would involve seeing a women as less than a person. Like maybe as a possession. See my previous comment.

3) In terms of justification on a case-by-case basis, she may as well have outright said the following: the problem isn't that any individual game uses the damsel in distress trope, it's that the trope remains obligatory throughout the medium.
First of all, she didn't use the word obligatory. Which would have been a huge mistake since many games don't use it. It's widely used yes. But so what? It may get old, tiring, boring and it's fine to make those claims. But don't engage in ridiculous pseudo psychology and try to make the overuse of said trope appear "evil". I want devs to rely less on tropes because they can come up with stories which don't need them, not because it's "evil" and they forced them out and get stories which are potentially worse because they work less without the tropes.
You don't get extra points for being overly literal, it just makes arguing with you tiresome. You know what I mean: If there's a women in a video game, chances are she's a damsel in distress. Strewn about our cultural artifacts, does this trend say anything about how women are seen in our societies? I think it does. Is that message particularly friendly for women? Only if you consider patronizing women and taking away their agency 'friendly'.
 

Eddie the head

New member
Feb 22, 2012
2,327
0
0
erttheking said:
"Sigh" thread is only two pages long and I already see entire posts completely demonizing people that don't agree with the poster. This happens EVERY TIME!

This is why we don't don't get thoughtful debate out of this videos! People don't want to sit down and debate about it, they want to insult people for having the poor judgement to have a different opinion!
Yep it's amazing. Personal attacks don't help your point, and just cause a backfire effect on the people you use it on. Completely unhelpful for both sides. But demonizing people is a way to make yourself feel better about your opinions so it's not likely to stop.
 

T_ConX

New member
Mar 8, 2010
456
0
0
I want to agree with her about most of the stuff she covered. The writing and story in Hitman: Absolution, Duke Nukem Forever, Dante's Inferno, The Darkness I/II, Castlevania: LoS and a bunch of others was lazy and cliched, and I'm not going to defend any of those.

But when she starts going on about violence against women in video games, I just lost it. You do realize men are also victims of violence in these games, right? Sometimes they're even unwilling and/or helpless. You want to complain about Kratos wife and daughter in GoW, but what about when he's bashing a dudes head in as a sacrifice to the Fates? How about the fate of Maria in GTA3, which happens after the main character has already killed hundreds, if not thousands, of people, innocent and not. Let's throw a fit about Jessamine Kaldwin's death, and ignore all those disposable guards, most of whom did nothing wrong except come in for work that day. I haven't kept track, but I'm pretty sure my digital body count has an overwhelming male majority, 25 to 1 at least...
 

ThrobbingEgo

New member
Nov 17, 2008
2,765
0
0
erttheking said:
ThrobbingEgo said:
erttheking said:
"Sigh" thread is only two pages long and I already see entire posts completely demonizing people that don't agree with the poster. This happens EVERY TIME!

This is why we don't don't get thoughtful debate out of this videos! People don't want to sit down and debate about it, they want to insult people for having the poor judgement to have a different opinion!
That's funny. There are many situations in which poor judgement will result in differing opinion.
I just wish we could sit down for five minutes and talk like rational Human beings without blowing up over someone liking/not liking these videos. We Humans are a very diverse people, we're not all going to think the same thing.
I think if we sat down and had a discussion, we could agree that there are people who don't deserve to sit at the table with rational Human beings to discuss their points of view as being of equal merit to our own.

Take the Westboro Baptist Church, for instance. Take the KKK. Take Ann Coulter. Do you want to be responsible for giving ignorant people legitimacy by pretending they're rational adults?
Eddie the head said:
erttheking said:
"Sigh" thread is only two pages long and I already see entire posts completely demonizing people that don't agree with the poster. This happens EVERY TIME!

This is why we don't don't get thoughtful debate out of this videos! People don't want to sit down and debate about it, they want to insult people for having the poor judgement to have a different opinion!
Yep it's amazing. Personal attacks don't help your point, and just cause a backfire effect on the people you use it on. Completely unhelpful for both sides. But demonizing people is a way to make yourself feel better about your opinions so it's not likely to stop.
I've noticed something weird: the universe doesn't alter itself to make what I think less correct when I casually insult someone. Freaky, right?
 

Erttheking

Member
Legacy
Oct 5, 2011
10,845
1
3
Country
United States
ThrobbingEgo said:
erttheking said:
ThrobbingEgo said:
erttheking said:
"Sigh" thread is only two pages long and I already see entire posts completely demonizing people that don't agree with the poster. This happens EVERY TIME!

This is why we don't don't get thoughtful debate out of this videos! People don't want to sit down and debate about it, they want to insult people for having the poor judgement to have a different opinion!
That's funny. There are many situations in which poor judgement will result in differing opinion.
I just wish we could sit down for five minutes and talk like rational Human beings without blowing up over someone liking/not liking these videos. We Humans are a very diverse people, we're not all going to think the same thing.
I think if we sat down and had a discussion, we could agree that there are people who don't deserve to sit at the table with rational Human beings to discuss their points of view as being of equal merit to our own.

Take the Westboro Baptist Church, for instance. Take the KKK. Take Ann Coulter. Do you want to be responsible for giving ignorant people legitimacy by pretending they're rational adults?
Uh, last time I checked the people on this website weren't anywhere near notorious homophobes or racist murderers.
 

sethisjimmy

New member
May 22, 2009
601
0
0
Very interesting. I like the point she made about developers being boxed in by their gameplay. For example - When is violence justified? Many would say either in self defense or to protect/avenge an innocent. Women are often portrayed and viewed as this type of "innocent" who needs protection and warrants revenge. So in a lot of these big violent action games, the easiest way to justify the violence in the gameplay is to have a women in danger, kidnapped, or killed, so the protagonist has a reason to go around killing everything he sees.

While I already gathered a lot of the information given in this video, and I'm a bit disappointed it took so damn long, I think she can consider it a success just for the amount of discussion it's doubtlessly going to create. The more this problem is at the forefront of people's thoughts the easier it will be to work towards a solution.

Also, poor Bionic Commando, lol. I hadn't heard of that plot twist but I didn't think it was that funny.
 

ThrobbingEgo

New member
Nov 17, 2008
2,765
0
0
erttheking said:
Uh, last time I checked the people on this website weren't anywhere near notorious homophobes or racist murderers.
You're confusing type for token. This discussion currently isn't about racism or homophobia.
 

LetalisK

New member
May 5, 2010
2,769
0
0
erttheking said:
I just wish we could sit down for five minutes and talk like rational Human beings without blowing up over someone liking/not liking these videos. We Humans are a very diverse people, we're not all going to think the same thing.
I assume this is the part where you begin the rational conversation? After all, if you're going to point out a problem(more on this later), I assume you want to be part of the solution, correct? There is already at least one back and forth discussion going on about the video now and nothing is stopping you from making your own arguments and only responding to those that give you and your argument the forethought you and undoubtedly others come to expect from this discussion. (Edit: And because the internet is horrible with tone, let me qualify that there is not an ounce of sarcasm or flippancy in what I'm saying. I'm dead serious in inviting you to elevate the discussion, as is the rest of my post.)

As for the problem, the only thing* that could be said to be completely demonizing people that don't agree with the poster(whom I assume you mean Anita Sarkeesian, not IceForce who didn't actually given an opinion about the video) is the anger thrown at those at Youtube that spam reported her video. The worst they can be accused of is jumping to conclusions, unless you think spam reporting a video one disagrees with is a meaningful form of discussion?(This is neither sarcastic nor flippant either, some people do consider something like that to be a meaningful engagement) This is my roundabout way of saying "What demonization?"

*Though interestingly enough, ThrobbingEgo's response to your initial statement about the demonization could actually be seen as demonizing the people that don't agree with Anita, so you have one tally ex post facto.