Universities -- Misconceptions

[Stall]

I need to rant.

Do you want to know what universities are? BUSINESSES. They aren't these wonderful places of learning where free ideas propagate and bloom, or these places of immense intellectual growth where blah blah blah. This kind of garbage belongs in the movies... it is not reality. Reality would tell you that a universities are enterprises: they operate with the sole purpose of earning profits. It just so happens that their manner of earning these profits is to make you pay for your education. You give them money... they give you a piece of paper that increases your ability to get a job. Professors are their employees-- they aren't a glorious beacon of knowledge and freedom of thought, but just people doing their jobs. You are the university's client, which is referred to as a student in the industry of higher education. Stop giving universities special treatment: treat them like you would any other corporation or place of business... because THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE.

Can we please just drop this overly romanticized crap about higher education? I'm sick of these people saying thinking universities somehow special or are these magical supercool places. They're business... nothing more... nothing less. They aren't anything like the movies told you they were. You need a reality check if you think so otherwise.

Oh, this applies to American universities. If you aren't American and don't go to an American university, then please, don't tell me how "I'm wrong". I'm speaking only on what I know (which is American universities), and could care less how this generalizes to other cultures. I don't mean to sound like a jerk with this statement, but I want to avoid the inevitable "Oh, well I go to a university in X country, and this isn't true here!".

 

[Hero in a half shell]

I would tend to agree, from the amount of times I have seen student interests shafted to accomodate something that would improve the income or renown of the university, and the sometimes rediculously poor facilities we are forced to use, although I do think that in the actual classroom your lecturers will be fully involved in trying to provide you with the best education they can give (but obviously this depends entirely on the competence of the lecturer)

 

[Dags90]

I'm pretty sure state universities in the U.S. are non-profits. Sure, they might want to increase revenues, so they can expand programs with the hope of further increasing revenues, but they're certainly not making a profit. A fair number of private universities in the U.S. are also non-profit.

Was there anything specific that triggered this rant?

 

[Doclector]

Well, I live in britain, and I'd say, like most things, be it univeristies or shops, services, entertainment companies, they are businesses and on that basis they must function, but making the effort to be more than that is what makes it a great business/university.

 

[Stall]

I'm pretty sure state universities in the U.S. are non-profits. Sure, they might want to increase revenues, so they can expand programs with the hope of further increasing revenues, but they're certainly not making a profit. A fair number of private universities in the U.S. are also non-profit.

Nonprofit just means they only use profits internally to pay for their operating costs and such, and not distribute it to shareholders or owners. Nonprofits still need profits and revenue to cover costs and such; nor does nonprofit mean that they aren't a business anymore. If a nonprofit doesn't make enough money, then it can go under just like any other business.

Simply put: nonprofit != we don't need profit

 

[Dags90]

Nonprofit just means they only use profits internally to pay for their operating costs and such, and not distribute it to shareholders or owners. Nonprofits still need profits and revenue to cover costs and such; nor does nonprofit mean that they aren't a business anymore. If a nonprofit doesn't make enough money, then it can go under just like any other business.

Simply put: nonprofit != we don't need profit

Non profit means they don't make or need profits. All revenues are reinvested back into organization. Of course there are still reasons to increase revenues, and cut costs here and there.

 

[Richardplex]

Well, Valve's business model of giving me regular awesome deals so that I become a repeat customer and give them more money is just a business model, but it doesn't mean I can't love them for choosing that business model.

 

[Lilani]

-snip-

You should try taking a few art classes. Yes, it is very much a business, and there are too many instructors there who are much more interested in their own work than teaching, but art classes tend to be a bit different. I'm taking three this semester, and I love how free-range it all is. My painting class is in its own building downtown, and it's open 24 hours a day. You can come in and work whenever you want, as long as no classes are going on in the room you've gone into. Sure, if nobody is there they lock the doors to the classrooms, but as long as you are there the instructors just lock the door and tell you to shut it on the way out. I've even heard of people sleeping overnight down there. It's full of comfy chairs and couches. And my other two classes aren't too different.

But of course it is a business. They've still got bills to pay and services to provide. Just about EVERYTHING is a business these days--even public schools. In the end, the university experience is what you make of it. It can be as rewarding or as disheartening as you allow it to be. These days you aren't always going to be handed everything you need to get to the career you want just by taking all the classes required for your degree. You're going to have to take on your own projects outside of class and get the classes you're taking to work for you.

And the one thing I guarantee your university provides is the tools to do this. I am CERTAIN there are places at your university to do extra work. Computer labs, the library, what have you. Even unoccupied classrooms. For example: I'm a computer animation major, and the only program we're learning in class is Lightwave--which just about NO commercial studio uses. However, the computers in the animation lab also have 3D Studio Max and Maya, two of the industry standard programs. So I'm teaching myself how to use those on the side--learning Lightwave is helping to facilitate that, and vice versa.

What's even better is Autodesk offers ALL of their programs free to students for three years. That's 3D Studio Max, Maya, AutoCAD, and any of their other dozens of programs, in their newest and fullest forms. So, I can also work on these projects on my own computer.

So it's your choice. Either submit to the bureaucracy and do what they tell you to do, or take control and make the system work for you. Or better yet, would you like to improve the system? Get involved. Open up a dialog with your university. When you graduate, join the alumni program. Or get a degree in educational affairs and dedicate your life to working for school systems, and put yourself in a position to change it yourself. Regardless of the path you take, there's always something you can do.

 

[Alorxico]

If universities were truly businesses and nothing more, as you claim, they would not have a list of requirements that must be met by the "buyer" to use their "product". They can, and do, turn away potential clientele because they don't have the grades or means to get the funds to attend their establishment. If they were truly a business, they would not have these restrictions to allow for a bigger clientele base from which to pull.

Now, you may say "A car dealership has the right to deny selling a car to someone based on credit score and they do have the right to reclaim a car when the owner has not made a payment on it" and that statement is true; your previously achieved academic scores do act, in some way, as your credit score for college, HOWEVER a school CANNOT take back the education it has given someone up to the point they come knocking on the door asking for money. And on the ladder of "debt that needs to be paid back or you credit is ruined" student loans and school bills fall on the VERY bottom. I work for a bank in the student loan department, so I'm very familiar with the debt peaking order.

I will not argue that tuition prices are insane and that colleges do make a profit, but I disagree with the statement that they are nothing more than business. They have business like elements to them, but no one does anything for nothing. Teachers, philosophers, lawyers and doctors since ancient times charged for their services to ensure THEY could survive and some of them charged fairly, some charged extravagantly and some were cheap.

If you knew nothing about computers and a computer-savvy friend offered to teach you everything he knew about computers for a set price per hour, you still have the right to say "yes" or "no". If you don't like the tuition price of your college, you have the right to say "no" and look for another college.

 

[razer17]

Well, I live in britain, and I'd say, like most things, be it univeristies or shops, services, entertainment companies, they are businesses and on that basis they must function, but making the effort to be more than that is what makes it a great business/university.

Universities here in Britain are non-profit entities. The reason that tuition fees are going up isn't because they get more profit, but because they are going to receive less government funding.

 

[Shivarage]

-snip-

You should try taking a few art classes. Yes, it is very much a business, and there are too many instructors there who are much more interested in their own work than teaching, but art classes tend to be a bit different. I'm taking three this semester, and I love how free-range it all is. My painting class is in its own building downtown, and it's open 24 hours a day. You can come in and work whenever you want, as long as no classes are going on in the room you've gone into. Sure, if nobody is there they lock the doors to the classrooms, but as long as you are there the instructors just lock the door and tell you to shut it on the way out. I've even heard of people sleeping overnight down there. It's full of comfy chairs and couches. And my other two classes aren't too different.

But of course it is a business. They've still got bills to pay and services to provide. Just about EVERYTHING is a business these days--even public schools. In the end, the university experience is what you make of it. It can be as rewarding or as disheartening as you allow it to be. These days you aren't always going to be handed everything you need to get to the career you want just by taking all the classes required for your degree. You're going to have to take on your own projects outside of class and get the classes you're taking to work for you.

And the one thing I guarantee your university provides is the tools to do this. I am CERTAIN there are places at your university to do extra work. Computer labs, the library, what have you. Even unoccupied classrooms. For example: I'm a computer animation major, and the only program we're learning in class is Lightwave--which just about NO commercial studio uses. However, the computers in the animation lab also have 3D Studio Max and Maya, two of the industry standard programs. So I'm teaching myself how to use those on the side--learning Lightwave is helping to facilitate that, and vice versa.

What's even better is Autodesk offers ALL of their programs free to students for three years. That's 3D Studio Max, Maya, AutoCAD, and any of their other dozens of programs, in their newest and fullest forms. So, I can also work on these projects on my own computer.

So it's your choice. Either submit to the bureaucracy and do what they tell you to do, or take control and make the system work for you. Or better yet, would you like to improve the system? Get involved. Open up a dialog with your university. When you graduate, join the alumni program. Or get a degree in educational affairs and dedicate your life to working for school systems, and put yourself in a position to change it yourself. Regardless of the path you take, there's always something you can do.

You don't get a high score for your degree by doing what's not in the curriculum...

 

[bastardman25]

in the UK it seems the system of charging for tuition, but giving out massive numbers of government controlled student loans more people have opted to take the "silly" courses, holistic medicine for eg.
The unis may have taken on way more students than they would under the old free system, they get the money from the student finance company regardless of weather anyone gets employed after study.
The fees are tripling as of next year, I suppose to discourage people from studying nonsense but it will mean higher entry requirements for all courses, unless you're... you know, rich.

 

[Shivarage]

I need to rant.

Do you want to know what universities are? BUSINESSES.

Did the ever pretend to be anything else?

Yes, they pretenciously portray themselves to be magical lands where knowledge and wisdom is handed to you on a silver platter then employers come grovelling at your feet for you to come work for them after graduation.
just watch the tv adverts, the campus "prospectus" ie, a stupid word for menu and talk to any school teacher, they will tell you it is a guaranteed path to millions in riches.

The businesses sell success but without the success and then turn to say "didn't get a job? should have worked harder" the same excuse every time...
Employers aren't stupid, they are fully aware of how even lazy people do a degree just to have a degree so employers raise their qualification standards just because they need a way to filter the ever growing ocean of "talent" aka mindless drones

 

[IamLEAM1983]

Partial snip!

Oh, this applies to American universities. If you aren't American and don't go to an American university, then please, don't tell me how "I'm wrong". I'm speaking only on what I know (which is American universities), and could care less how this generalizes to other cultures. I don't mean to sound like a jerk with this statement, but I want to avoid the inevitable "Oh, well I go to a university in X country, and this isn't true here!".

Granted, universities are businesses, and businesses can be horribly mismanaged. Case in point, the Université du Québec à Montréal (UQAM), which is where I happen to go. They needed a new student parking space and tried to build a multi-tier parking garage. Cost estimates were wildly undershot, so much so that the dean had to resign when faced with his financial incompetence.

Still, that doesn't change the fact that universities are bipartite entities. You deal with the business end of things when you register, obtain your student card, get your schedule for the semester, etc. You deal with the academic side when you're handing in reports, spending days in the library for a bibliography project, or otherwise wooing teachers so one of them agrees to support your thesis.

You sound like you've got a chip on your shoulder, OP. Has something happened in your personal relationship with an institution of higher learning that caused that overall sense of disillusion? I get it that you might be sick of the "Dead Poets Society"-ish idolization of university as a concept, but you have to admit those of us who do choose to enroll in one aren't terribly concerned with the business end of things.

In Canada, a single semester costs around 700$ for the Master's degree. I know that's a far cry from what Americans pay, but for someone who only makes about ten bucks an hour, that's an absolute fortune. That shit be expensive, man; and I can only comfort myself in thinking that sixteen other people got chosen and were allowed to pay that motherload because we, well, fucking love books and fucking love nerding all over some author or another, to put it bluntly.

In other words, my passion and my desire to see this through will always defeat any and all peals of nihilistic realism I might experience at the sight of the bill I have to heft just to attend two classes of three hours each. I'm not doing this because I'm expecting to get a job at the end of it all; I'm doing it because I love it.

 

[Shivarage]

If universities were truly businesses and nothing more, as you claim, they would not have a list of requirements that must be met by the "buyer" to use their "product". They can, and do, turn away potential clientele because they don't have the grades or means to get the funds to attend their establishment. If they were truly a business, they would not have these restrictions to allow for a bigger clientele base from which to pull.

Now, you may say "A car dealership has the right to deny selling a car to someone based on credit score and they do have the right to reclaim a car when the owner has not made a payment on it" and that statement is true; your previously achieved academic scores do act, in some way, as your credit score for college, HOWEVER a school CANNOT take back the education it has given someone up to the point they come knocking on the door asking for money. And on the ladder of "debt that needs to be paid back or you credit is ruined" student loans and school bills fall on the VERY bottom. I work for a bank in the student loan department, so I'm very familiar with the debt peaking order.

I will not argue that tuition prices are insane and that colleges do make a profit, but I disagree with the statement that they are nothing more than business. They have business like elements to them, but no one does anything for nothing. Teachers, philosophers, lawyers and doctors since ancient times charged for their services to ensure THEY could survive and some of them charged fairly, some charged extravagantly and some were cheap.

If you knew nothing about computers and a computer-savvy friend offered to teach you everything he knew about computers for a set price per hour, you still have the right to say "yes" or "no". If you don't like the tuition price of your college, you have the right to say "no" and look for another college.

I think you'll find "unpaid internship" undermines your arguement, if nobody does anything free then why expect graduates to work for NOTHING (this is a communist idea that rich people take because of greed, pure and simple) before even considering them for a job, this is not something that can be said "no" to because otherwise someone else with daddy's money to live on will get the job you worked and got into all that debt for.

 

[Lilani]

You don't get a high score for your degree by doing what's not in the curriculum...

Protop: When it comes to having a degree, most employers care more about your performance and the fact that you have the degree more than your GPA. A high GPA is nice, but ultimately it's your actual resume and portfolio that get you places. Having a "high score for your degree" just shows you're really good at doing what you are told to do, and completing the tasks others tell you to complete.

Now, having a broad resume that shows a history of doing things beyond the reach beyond what is merely required to attain your degree, THAT tells employers a lot about your character. Going what beyond what is simply required of you shows a desire to progress and evolve, plus it means you have a high level of self-motivation. Those are traits that cannot be expressed just by a good GPA. Doing what you're told isn't inherently a bad thing, however if that's all you have to show for yourself, that is a problem.

 

[Redlin5_v1legacy]

Sad but true. When I was working through my registration last year it felt more like I was dealing with a corporation than a school. More public money needs to fund these things so that students don't have to bankrupt themselves to have a future...

Another misconception? University isn't always having a party all the time. I worked very hard and was still set back with pneumonia. For some of my fellow students who were late with assignments due to drinking parties in downtown Vancouver... Well they didn't do as well.

Still, I enjoyed the experience and I can't wait until I can go back for more. Nothing to me is more satisfying than learning about what you love.

 

[AngloDoom]

-Snip-

You don't get a high score for your degree by doing what's not in the curriculum...[/quote]

Fine art degree: Make a point with art and justify it with background research.

The curriculum is sometimes there just to guide you into ways of thinking - breaking out of that mindset can actually reward you in some subjects by taking less obvious routes.