Universities -- Misconceptions

[Eisenfaust]

in a way, since universities have a vested interest in having their students do well, in terms of reputation, so a clever university will realise that if they in fact become shiny becons of knowledge, etc they'll get better people, better grades, better reputation, better funding... yes, they are businesses, but don't just look at them as going "oooooooh money money money!!!"... it's more complicated than that

 

[Hoplon]

I believe the best quote about US Universities was in the vein of "Over priced daycare"

 

[Arbi Trax]

I would have paid double for the privelige of going to my uni. Ancient buildings, containing hundreds of years' accumulated knowledge. I would sometimes head into other departments' libraries, borrow a book or journal and leaf through it while sitting on an ancient leather armchair in one of the rec rooms.

If ever I won the lottery I would go back to my uni, and spend the rest of my life absorbing the words on those dusty shelves.

Centuries of knowledge, the entire intellectual history of mankind, all there for the taking! Aude sapere! Take the plunge! So what if it's not practical, or it doesn't automatically boost your chances of getting a job?

The day that all human endeavour becomes purely utilitarian is the day that we cease moving forward as a species.

 

[Jadak]

and could care less.

Couldn't !!!!

*sigh* Definitely an American.

 

[Chemical Alia]

-snip-

You should try taking a few art classes. Yes, it is very much a business, and there are too many instructors there who are much more interested in their own work than teaching, but art classes tend to be a bit different. I'm taking three this semester, and I love how free-range it all is. My painting class is in its own building downtown, and it's open 24 hours a day. You can come in and work whenever you want, as long as no classes are going on in the room you've gone into. Sure, if nobody is there they lock the doors to the classrooms, but as long as you are there the instructors just lock the door and tell you to shut it on the way out. I've even heard of people sleeping overnight down there. It's full of comfy chairs and couches. And my other two classes aren't too different.

But of course it is a business. They've still got bills to pay and services to provide. Just about EVERYTHING is a business these days--even public schools. In the end, the university experience is what you make of it. It can be as rewarding or as disheartening as you allow it to be. These days you aren't always going to be handed everything you need to get to the career you want just by taking all the classes required for your degree. You're going to have to take on your own projects outside of class and get the classes you're taking to work for you.

And the one thing I guarantee your university provides is the tools to do this. I am CERTAIN there are places at your university to do extra work. Computer labs, the library, what have you. Even unoccupied classrooms. For example: I'm a computer animation major, and the only program we're learning in class is Lightwave--which just about NO commercial studio uses. However, the computers in the animation lab also have 3D Studio Max and Maya, two of the industry standard programs. So I'm teaching myself how to use those on the side--learning Lightwave is helping to facilitate that, and vice versa.

What's even better is Autodesk offers ALL of their programs free to students for three years. That's 3D Studio Max, Maya, AutoCAD, and any of their other dozens of programs, in their newest and fullest forms. So, I can also work on these projects on my own computer.

So it's your choice. Either submit to the bureaucracy and do what they tell you to do, or take control and make the system work for you. Or better yet, would you like to improve the system? Get involved. Open up a dialog with your university. When you graduate, join the alumni program. Or get a degree in educational affairs and dedicate your life to working for school systems, and put yourself in a position to change it yourself. Regardless of the path you take, there's always something you can do.

Completely agreed. You get out of college precisely what you put in. Of course schools often lower standards to keep students enrolled, and no degree guarantees you a job. But schools provide you with resources and the potential to grow through your peers and those with experience.

Acting cynical and writing off what education offers is one thing you can do with your time, but you could also be making the best of what you have, in the hopes of giving some of that experience back someday.

 

[Stall]

Acting cynical and writing off what education offers is one thing you can do with your time, but you could also be making the best of what you have, in the hopes of giving some of that experience back someday.

I did not mean to sound as if I am "writing off" the value of an education, nor did I intend to sound cynical. I'm a senior graduating in the spring summa cum laude with departmental honors, and I am also applying to graduate programs. I also have aspirations to be a lecturer or professor as well. So obviously I don't hate education, do not feel it has no value, and am not cynical about it in any way really. I was tempted to state that the fact that a university is a business carries both positive and negative connotations, so I suppose that is my fault for not communicating facets of my thoughts well enough.

I wanted to attack this super idealized, very romantic vision people have of higher education. It strikes me as incredibly obnoxious when people have this very "Hollywood" and romanticized vision of higher education. Being a business isn't a bad thing, but it seems there is a rather significant proportion of people out there who think universities are "more" than a business and somehow an insult to imply that they are nothing beyond this.

It wasn't an attack against "the system," per se, but an attack against individuals who elevate this system to something it is not.

I believe the best quote about US Universities was in the vein of "Over priced daycare"

[img=And you were saying?]http://i53.tinypic.com/2h87iol.gif[/img]

 

[Chemical Alia]

Acting cynical and writing off what education offers is one thing you can do with your time, but you could also be making the best of what you have, in the hopes of giving some of that experience back someday.

I did not mean to sound as if I am "writing off" the value of an education, nor did I intend to sound cynical. I'm a senior graduating in the spring summa cum laude with departmental honors, and I am also applying to graduate programs. I also have aspirations to be a lecturer or professor as well. So obviously I don't hate education, do not feel it has no value, and am not cynical about it in any way really. I was tempted to state that the fact that a university is a business carries both positive and negative connotations, so I suppose that is my fault for not communicating facets of my thoughts well enough.

I wanted to attack this super idealized, very romantic vision people have of higher education. It strikes me as incredibly obnoxious when people have this very "Hollywood" and romanticized vision of higher education. Being a business isn't a bad thing, but it seems there is a rather significant proportion of people out there who think universities are "more" than a business and somehow an insult to imply that they are nothing beyond this.

It wasn't an attack against "the system," per se, but an attack against individuals who elevate this system to something it is not.

Oh, I see. I guess I just never see much of what it is you're complaining about, but usually the opposite. I was surrounded by people who complained about the lack of quality of their education (I went to a state school, so it wasn't too great) all through college, and who produced pretty mediocre work.

It's definitely a potentially dangerous and costly mindset to go through college without any consideration toward what you plan to do with your degree, and that's something I don't think schools address very well at all.

I have too many friends who graduated years ago and still have no idea what they want to do. Even my sister got a bachelor's degree in Japanese years ago because she was a weeaboo when she started college and thought it would be cool, and struggles to find even retail work now, while barely managing to pay the interest on her student loans :C

Overall though, I think it's the for-profit schools like the Art Institutes and DeVry that really need to go, the ones that advertise heavily and make a lot of promises while their career placement is abysmal along with the quality of their curricula.

 

[Grospoliner]

snip

Build me a space shuttle without proper engineering education. Can you do that for me? Didn't think so. Bai~

 

[Dags90]

Overall though, I think it's the for-profit schools like the Art Institutes and DeVry that really need to go, the ones that advertise heavily and make a lot of promises while their career placement is abysmal along with the quality of their curricula.

Are you trying to wage war on climate control? There's a demand for certified HVAC specialists. Call now to see if you qualify for financial aid!

And plenty of state schools are well respected, and even more still have specific programs that are well respected.

 

[Chemical Alia]

Overall though, I think it's the for-profit schools like the Art Institutes and DeVry that really need to go, the ones that advertise heavily and make a lot of promises while their career placement is abysmal along with the quality of their curricula.

Are you trying to wage war on climate control? There's a demand for certified HVAC specialists. Call now to see if you qualify for financial aid!

And plenty of state schools are well respected, and even more still have specific programs that are well respected.

Lol, yeah. But yeah, I went to Kutztown University, which at least was known for having the best art department among PA state schools. It was just a shame that it was lacking a lot of courses that I was very interested in and could have helped me. My sister went to Penn State, supposedly a pretty great school if you're not majoring in Japanese or turf grass.

 

[GrizzlerBorno]

Well I'm still a freshman.... so I'm not quite jaded enough with College Bureaucracy to agree. Maybe later?

 

[Stall]

Build me a space shuttle without proper engineering education. Can you do that for me? Didn't think so. Bai~

You know, two posts above your own-- about two hours prior to your own-- I explicitly stated that this thread was not an attack against higher education nor 'the system,' but an attack on a subset of individuals obsessed with an over-idealized image of universities. My original post said nothing about the quality nor need of education either: again, it was all an attack on the way some people romanticize the university system. Any statement you read believing that I "hate education" in my original post was thoroughly (and improperly) extrapolated.

So, I guess that 'proper education' you were reading doesn't cover reading, eh? I could slip in a quick quip against engineers, but I'm better than that

 

[fulano]

Well I'm still a freshman.... so I'm not quite jaded enough with College Bureaucracy to agree. Maybe later?

He is butthurt either b/c he doesn't understand the difference between the actual universities and the for-profit ones, failed out, or is just royally pissed. Either way, if he had an inkling of an idea he'd understand that he's taking a shred of truth and blowing it out of proportion and into the realm of vague generalities.

My take? He is only partially correct and depending on where you are things will vary. Hell, they even vary within the universities themselves.

 

[lacktheknack]

I'm pretty sure state universities in the U.S. are non-profits. Sure, they might want to increase revenues, so they can expand programs with the hope of further increasing revenues, but they're certainly not making a profit. A fair number of private universities in the U.S. are also non-profit.

Nonprofit just means they only use profits internally to pay for their operating costs and such, and not distribute it to shareholders or owners. Nonprofits still need profits and revenue to cover costs and such; nor does nonprofit mean that they aren't a business anymore. If a nonprofit doesn't make enough money, then it can go under just like any other business.

Simply put: nonprofit != we don't need profit

Um... I'm guessing you've never taken a University course on economics?

Profit is the revenue you don't spend. If you're avoiding a profit, you just reduce your income/increase your service until you spend everying. Hence, nonprofit = NONPROFIT.

And anyways, I don't really care. I want to pursue a career in advanced computer algorithm design/databases/graphic design/something (I'm only a sophomore, this is the year I figure it out), and I NEED a degree to do it. The fact that my university happens to do tons of research, fits the "supercool" University stereotype pretty well (as far as I can tell/care), and is dirt cheap is all a nice bonus.

 

[Grospoliner]

Build me a space shuttle without proper engineering education. Can you do that for me? Didn't think so. Bai~

You know, two posts above your own-- about two hours prior to your own-- I explicitly stated that this thread was not an attack against higher education nor 'the system,' but an attack on a subset of individuals obsessed with an over-idealized image of universities. My original post said nothing about the quality nor need of education either: again, it was all an attack on the way some people romanticize the university system. Any statement you read believing that I "hate education" in my original post was thoroughly (and improperly) extrapolated.

So, I guess that 'proper education' you were reading doesn't cover reading, eh? I could slip in a quick quip against engineers, but I'm better than that

Implying I read through two pages worth of comments? I certainly did not.

 

[dantoddd]

I need to rant.

Do you want to know what universities are? BUSINESSES.

Did the ever pretend to be anything else?

most universities are non-profit organizations.

I've been to three universities Amherst, Cornell & UC Berkeley none of those felt like a business to me. as an undergrad i was very well taken care of I got generous financial aid, got to study abroad & profs were nice to talk to an always helped. Grad school was a bit more job like but that is something you should expect when you to grad school.

 

[lacktheknack]

Build me a space shuttle without proper engineering education. Can you do that for me? Didn't think so. Bai~

You know, two posts above your own-- about two hours prior to your own-- I explicitly stated that this thread was not an attack against higher education nor 'the system,' but an attack on a subset of individuals obsessed with an over-idealized image of universities. My original post said nothing about the quality nor need of education either: again, it was all an attack on the way some people romanticize the university system. Any statement you read believing that I "hate education" in my original post was thoroughly (and improperly) extrapolated.

So, I guess that 'proper education' you were reading doesn't cover reading, eh? I could slip in a quick quip against engineers, but I'm better than that

Implying I read through two pages worth of comments? I certainly did not.

One page*

And no, the OP was pretty clear that he wasn't ranting about the education itself at all.

 

[spartan231490]

I need to rant.

Do you want to know what universities are? BUSINESSES. They aren't these wonderful places of learning where free ideas propagate and bloom, or these places of immense intellectual growth where blah blah blah. This kind of garbage belongs in the movies... it is not reality. Reality would tell you that a universities are enterprises: they operate with the sole purpose of earning profits. It just so happens that their manner of earning these profits is to make you pay for your education. You give them money... they give you a piece of paper that increases your ability to get a job. Professors are their employees-- they aren't a glorious beacon of knowledge and freedom of thought, but just people doing their jobs. You are the university's client, which is referred to as a student in the industry of higher education. Stop giving universities special treatment: treat them like you would any other corporation or place of business... because THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE.

Can we please just drop this overly romanticized crap about higher education? I'm sick of these people saying thinking universities somehow special or are these magical supercool places. They're business... nothing more... nothing less. They aren't anything like the movies told you they were. You need a reality check if you think so otherwise.

Oh, this applies to American universities. If you aren't American and don't go to an American university, then please, don't tell me how "I'm wrong". I'm speaking only on what I know (which is American universities), and could care less how this generalizes to other cultures. I don't mean to sound like a jerk with this statement, but I want to avoid the inevitable "Oh, well I go to a university in X country, and this isn't true here!".

The movie "accepted" was a much funnier way of saying exactly this. Everyone should watch it.

Well I'm still a freshman.... so I'm not quite jaded enough with College Bureaucracy to agree. Maybe later?

He is butthurt either b/c he doesn't understand the difference between the actual universities and the for-profit ones, failed out, or is just royally pissed. Either way, if he had an inkling of an idea he'd understand that he's taking a shred of truth and blowing it out of proportion and into the realm of vague generalities.

My take? He is only partially correct and depending on where you are things will vary. Hell, they even vary within the universities themselves.

Universities are run for profit, plain and simple. It's an obvious truth. That doesn't make them bad. There is no reason for them not to be. Yes, it leads to some bad decisions on the part of the universities, but they still accomplish their goals, at least to some extent. Really, he's right, american universities are not places of free thought and expression. think about the firefly poster thing that has been discussed on this very site.