Universities -- Misconceptions

[Berenzen]

I'm guessing that your talking about universities and colleges in the U.S. In Canada, tuition is fairly affordable (the University of Alberta, where I go to, is maybe 7 grand a year if you take 10 classes). Yes, universities are businesses. However, they thrive on the business of selling and obtaining knowledge. As such, they allow people to express and share ideas without any major repercussions. Yes, in a 400 person class, you won't be getting much discussion, but there are many classes, particularly in upper years (300+ level classes typically) that focus on discussion, as there are maybe 30-50 students in the class. And if you go into graduate school, then it's especially focused on discussion and freedom of thought.

Essentially it goes like this
1st year-> mostly pure learning, huge classes. Maybe a couple smaller classes where discussion occurs and thrives

2nd year-> more learning, but classes are maybe 1/4th the size of the 1st year classes, discussions encouraged further

3rd and 4th years-> some learning classes most of which are very small, many of which promote discussion of the topic at hand.

Graduate school-> You are working for a professor, doing many experiments under him or her to publish papers. Free thought and challenging your supervisor with your own ideas is not only permitted, but encouraged as it allows you to grow, and challenge papers that you may see as wrong or convoluted, that you may wish to disprove if it is in your own line of study.

After Grad school, you may be hired back as a professor, where you will use these skills of discussion and challenging the status quo in order to become successful, allowing you to obtain more grants, therefore more graduate students, which give the university more money.

In essence, universities want you to be able discuss and challenge ideas in their environment, simply because it allows them to gain money in research grants, scholarships and more. Yes they are businesses, and they want to make money. But the product they sell is information, and without discussion that they should promote, then their product becomes less valuable and hence, they make less money.

 

[Sonic Doctor]

Snip

Everybody with a little common sense knows this, even if they don't before they go, they will know after they start going to one.

This is why if I had great pull and could change things about colleges and universities, I would go in and start slashing the curriculum of each one, because I've been to two, and both have way too many requirements in their "core" curriculums(most of the core classes are just rehashes of things learned in high school and sometimes earlier in life).

It takes up way too much of each students valuable time. I wouldn't take out the whole core, just cut in half, just remove the double and sometimes requirements from each main subject section, as well as remove the Physical Education plus Health class requirement.

Also remove foreign language requirements from degrees that that wouldn't actually benefit from it, or at least create an equivalent degree that doesn't require it(for the people that know it will be a waste of time and money for them). I and I know at least ten other people that went to the university I went to that didn't go for the a creative writing degree like they wanted, because of the moronic foreign language requirement. We knew we didn't need it as writers and that it would waste 4 class hours worth of space, and cost us an extra 2000 dollars at least, probably more if books were included in that calculation.

If universities were truly businesses and nothing more, as you claim, they would not have a list of requirements that must be met by the "buyer" to use their "product".

Actually it is absolutely a business. I know many professors that didn't hide it, they admitted to their students that the universities do certain things to make more money.

Think about it:

1.)They of course accept people that can easily pay.

2.)They have requirements on getting in, because, the better the student the longer they might stay and give out more money. Why not let loads of bad students in? Even though it would bring in a little money, chances are those types of students wouldn't stay long, and each student while paying money also takes up resources from the university, if the student doesn't stay long enough, the money paid by the student might not end up being more than the resources that that student used up.

3.)Once the student enrolled, there is the core curriculum. It is full of classes that university has deemed as "important for succeeding in the real world" That they are just classes of basic knowledge that everybody needs to know. The problem is that it turns out that, oh, you don't need just one basic class in that area, you need two, or maybe three. " 'Employers' last year told us that you really need to know this basic skill, so we are increasing the requirement in that area."
My second university actually upped the core requirement in one area when I got there, luckily I had taking an extra class in that area, for the heck of it, before I transferred.

Number three is a red flag that shows that colleges and universities are just businesses. Many many many years ago, universities actually were what they were suppose to be. Their weren't any silly core requirements. Universities were places where people went to narrow their learning. If I had lived way way way back when, I, a person that was interested in literature and becoming a writer, would go to a university get a degree in writing and or literature, and I would only take classes that pertained to my field.
But I didn't go to school way way way back when, I went in this day and age, where only a little over half of my classes had to do with writing and literature. The other 45% had to do with fields I wasn't interested in, at least not from a wanting to be an expert standpoint. A few decades ago, I don't know exactly when, someone came of with the stupid idea that we want people that are "well-rounded" instead of people separated into super expertise categories. We can't have an expert writer that doesn't know how to do complex math or have intimate knowledge of all the sciences. We can't have people not knowing things from other fields, blah blah blah blah blah.
Since there started to be more and more universities, they had to start competing for students and making more money to keep up with the others. They picked up this well-round student idea or "disciplined as one of my crazy professors put it" because they saw that it meant to be well rounded students have to take classes in every one of the main class types, so they made them requirements. Then many years later, when they saw that they needed more money to keep up, they instituted more basic requirements. Required "core" classes means that all students have to take them and that means more money because students can't refuse to take them even if they are stupid requirements, because they can't graduate without them.

Universities these days aren't creating as many full experts these days. Only the truly gifted can come through it as whole experts. The normal people come out messed up and broken because almost half the time they were at a university, their heads were being filled with useless knowledge that they won't use.
Example: I'm a writer, what use was it for me to take two lab sciences, where most of the stuff being taught was also taught to me in grade school. What use do I have for taking higher level math classes, trigonometry isn't going to help me become a better writer, neither is physical education, health, history, other social sciences, and foreign languages. I have done quite a bit of writing over the years, not one bit from any of those classes has helped me be a better writer. They haven't helped me become a better anything, they just filled my head with useless trivia I will never use, will unless I become a contestant on Jeopardy!:

Me: "Thank you Alex, I'll take useless knowledge for 400"

PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW

Alex: "Look at that, it's the daily double."

 

[Sonic Doctor]

snip

Build me a space shuttle without proper engineering education. Can you do that for me? Didn't think so. Bai~

Would you want an engineer that only half of his education was spent on engineering, to build the vehicle you are going to be in, or one where 90% to every bit of his education was in engineering?

The first one is what we are churning out these days. Instead of totally narrowing eduction in the highest level to make people that are total experts, in the name of creating "well-rounded" people, we are making graduates that have spent half the time working on things in their field compared to people several decades ago.

Instead getting the time to learn something that in the future the engineering student will need to know to fix a fatal error, that student was sitting in some history or social science class, or running in a physical education class, or in a lab science that wouldn't help with the type of engineering being learned by the student.

Even if the OP wasn't thinking of it, that is what the OP was meaning behind the universities being businesses. In the name of making more money, they are requiring more and more classes that have nothing to do with people's majors, which takes up valuable class time that could be used on classes that will further a student's knowledge in the field he or she wants to go into.

 

[fulano]

I need to rant.

Do you want to know what universities are? BUSINESSES. They aren't these wonderful places of learning where free ideas propagate and bloom, or these places of immense intellectual growth where blah blah blah. This kind of garbage belongs in the movies... it is not reality. Reality would tell you that a universities are enterprises: they operate with the sole purpose of earning profits. It just so happens that their manner of earning these profits is to make you pay for your education. You give them money... they give you a piece of paper that increases your ability to get a job. Professors are their employees-- they aren't a glorious beacon of knowledge and freedom of thought, but just people doing their jobs. You are the university's client, which is referred to as a student in the industry of higher education. Stop giving universities special treatment: treat them like you would any other corporation or place of business... because THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE.

Can we please just drop this overly romanticized crap about higher education? I'm sick of these people saying thinking universities somehow special or are these magical supercool places. They're business... nothing more... nothing less. They aren't anything like the movies told you they were. You need a reality check if you think so otherwise.

Oh, this applies to American universities. If you aren't American and don't go to an American university, then please, don't tell me how "I'm wrong". I'm speaking only on what I know (which is American universities), and could care less how this generalizes to other cultures. I don't mean to sound like a jerk with this statement, but I want to avoid the inevitable "Oh, well I go to a university in X country, and this isn't true here!".

The movie "accepted" was a much funnier way of saying exactly this. Everyone should watch it.

Well I'm still a freshman.... so I'm not quite jaded enough with College Bureaucracy to agree. Maybe later?

He is butthurt either b/c he doesn't understand the difference between the actual universities and the for-profit ones, failed out, or is just royally pissed. Either way, if he had an inkling of an idea he'd understand that he's taking a shred of truth and blowing it out of proportion and into the realm of vague generalities.

My take? He is only partially correct and depending on where you are things will vary. Hell, they even vary within the universities themselves.

Universities are run for profit, plain and simple. It's an obvious truth. That doesn't make them bad. There is no reason for them not to be. Yes, it leads to some bad decisions on the part of the universities, but they still accomplish their goals, at least to some extent. Really, he's right, american universities are not places of free thought and expression. think about the firefly poster thing that has been discussed on this very site.

No. You are taking an incident and extending it into the realm of uninformed generalization.

Yes, the American model of higher education is based on profit, that much is well known, but within the model you can find all sorts of different incarnations of what a University is supposed to be and not just the assembly line equivalent of education.

To say universities are run for profit is a misconception given how they are at the cutting edge of technological and philosophical development, failed economic model nothwithstanding. That's where scientific and technological breakthroughs are carried out in the U.S., along with certain strands of the private sector, and the people there are thrilled to bothe learn and develop those things. To say otherwise is to plain be stubborn and close minded.

 

[Sonic Doctor]

most universities are non-profit organizations.

I've been to three universities Amherst, Cornell & UC Berkeley none of those felt like a business to me. as an undergrad i was very well taken care of I got generous financial aid, got to study abroad & profs were nice to talk to an always helped. Grad school was a bit more job like but that is something you should expect when you to grad school.

What country are we talking about here?

Considering that UC Berkeley is in California, the country is the US.

Though dantoddd doesn't understand the finer points of universities, they can have all those things he said, but still be ruthless businesses.

As I have said in other posts, I as well have had kind professors that were nice and helped me, but they all admitted that universities are businesses.

 

[Shivarage]

Umm no I don't think so, they've always been business, what the weren't 100% truthful in their advertisements? No businesses are.

As for the whole mindless drones thing, I went to university, I worked hard, I got good results and now I'm in a cushy job for Government Management. No one ever pretended that my degree was going to be handed to me on a silver platter. University is great if you put the effort in, this sounds like it could be more a problem with your attitude to work than with the uni itself.

University is great you say? explain "unpaid internships" aka slavery if university is that valuable... from what I can see, university is just time wasting and then they ask you to do EVEN MORE before even considering giving you minimum wage, OH they didn't give a job - shoulda worked harder for no money then! or even paid them for the privilege!

 

[Shivarage]

You don't get a high score for your degree by doing what's not in the curriculum...

Protop: When it comes to having a degree, most employers care more about your performance and the fact that you have the degree more than your GPA. A high GPA is nice, but ultimately it's your actual resume and portfolio that get you places. Having a "high score for your degree" just shows you're really good at doing what you are told to do, and completing the tasks others tell you to complete.

Now, having a broad resume that shows a history of doing things beyond the reach beyond what is merely required to attain your degree, THAT tells employers a lot about your character. Going what beyond what is simply required of you shows a desire to progress and evolve, plus it means you have a high level of self-motivation. Those are traits that cannot be expressed just by a good GPA. Doing what you're told isn't inherently a bad thing, however if that's all you have to show for yourself, that is a problem.

That's not what they TELL you when you get there, they tell you to get a high mark for your degree and nothing more and you are guaranteed a job which are lies. they punish having broad activites by not including them in the curriculum, leading to a low value degree.

[sarcasm]Oh yes, I remember all the times the business owners did what they were told... like paying their taxes and not exporting jobs to capitalize their profits not to mention hiring more people with their tax rate deductions... yes, doing what your told definately pays off [/scarcasm]

 

[Shivarage]

-Snip-

Snip

I don't see your justification or background research, we will be here forever if we have to dig out quotes from random people no more intelligent than us just cause you don't trust anyone personally...

Clearly the curriculum is there to measure students against or else how can they tell who is better than who?

As for education in general, they don't tell you that who you know is more important that what... I've seen time and time again the biggest idiots in high paid positions


Can you really tell me that this man is highly intelligent or even has an education? he has two god dam houses paid for by us and steals hundreds of thousands from us and can't understand why that isn't acceptable...

I certainly wouldn't trust him with my droppings

 

[spartan231490]

I need to rant.

Do you want to know what universities are? BUSINESSES. They aren't these wonderful places of learning where free ideas propagate and bloom, or these places of immense intellectual growth where blah blah blah. This kind of garbage belongs in the movies... it is not reality. Reality would tell you that a universities are enterprises: they operate with the sole purpose of earning profits. It just so happens that their manner of earning these profits is to make you pay for your education. You give them money... they give you a piece of paper that increases your ability to get a job. Professors are their employees-- they aren't a glorious beacon of knowledge and freedom of thought, but just people doing their jobs. You are the university's client, which is referred to as a student in the industry of higher education. Stop giving universities special treatment: treat them like you would any other corporation or place of business... because THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE.

Can we please just drop this overly romanticized crap about higher education? I'm sick of these people saying thinking universities somehow special or are these magical supercool places. They're business... nothing more... nothing less. They aren't anything like the movies told you they were. You need a reality check if you think so otherwise.

Oh, this applies to American universities. If you aren't American and don't go to an American university, then please, don't tell me how "I'm wrong". I'm speaking only on what I know (which is American universities), and could care less how this generalizes to other cultures. I don't mean to sound like a jerk with this statement, but I want to avoid the inevitable "Oh, well I go to a university in X country, and this isn't true here!".

The movie "accepted" was a much funnier way of saying exactly this. Everyone should watch it.

Well I'm still a freshman.... so I'm not quite jaded enough with College Bureaucracy to agree. Maybe later?

He is butthurt either b/c he doesn't understand the difference between the actual universities and the for-profit ones, failed out, or is just royally pissed. Either way, if he had an inkling of an idea he'd understand that he's taking a shred of truth and blowing it out of proportion and into the realm of vague generalities.

My take? He is only partially correct and depending on where you are things will vary. Hell, they even vary within the universities themselves.

Universities are run for profit, plain and simple. It's an obvious truth. That doesn't make them bad. There is no reason for them not to be. Yes, it leads to some bad decisions on the part of the universities, but they still accomplish their goals, at least to some extent. Really, he's right, american universities are not places of free thought and expression. think about the firefly poster thing that has been discussed on this very site.

No. You are taking an incident and extending it into the realm of uninformed generalization.

Yes, the American model of higher education is based on profit, that much is well known, but within the model you can find all sorts of different incarnations of what a University is supposed to be and not just the assembly line equivalent of education.

To say universities are run for profit is a misconception given how they are at the cutting edge of technological and philosophical development, failed economic model nothwithstanding. That's where scientific and technological breakthroughs are carried out in the U.S., along with certain strands of the private sector, and the people there are thrilled to bothe learn and develop those things. To say otherwise is to plain be stubborn and close minded.

Cutting edge of technology? No they aren't. Clarkson University (where I went) is a pretty good, expensive, well funded engineering school, even their best equipment is a minimum of 10-15 years old. They use industrial cast-offs that are donated by alumni. Most, if not all, colleges are exactly the same.

And you said it yourself, Universities are run for profit, it's a well known fact. I wasn't "taking an incident and extending it into the realm of uninformed generalization." I was taking the sum of my experiences, as well as the experiences with all of my friends and family(surprisingly, there was no conflicting evidence) and coming to a conclusion. The firefly thing was just one example.

If you want others, how about the fact that following your advisers advice in college is likely to result in you needing a whole extra year to graduate. It happened to my brother, my sister, and two separate friends of mine at 4 different american Universities. Everyone else I know in college didn't listen to their adviser and just looked at what they needed and figured out how to get there on their own.

How about the fact that even state schools charge you over $5,000 dollars for just 4, maybe 4 and a half months of food. And the same charge for a your dorm, even the 16 by 16 box with 3 people in it.

How about the fact that many colleges have a fee you need to pay to drop a class.

colleges are run for profit, and it shows. Perhaps you are the one drawing an over-large conclusion from a too-small sample pool.

 

[Lilani]

That's not what they TELL you when you get there, they tell you to get a high mark for your degree and nothing more and you are guaranteed a job which are lies. they punish having broad activites by not including them in the curriculum, leading to a low value degree.

[sarcasm]Oh yes, I remember all the times the business owners did what they were told... like paying their taxes and not exporting jobs to capitalize their profits not to mention hiring more people with their tax rate deductions... yes, doing what your told definately pays off [/scarcasm]

I'm sorry, but who exactly is punishing you for having broad activities? It couldn't be the employers because they love broad resumes, and it couldn't be the university because student organizations need participation for you to survive. Or do you mean that if you participate in lots of activities, it could lower your scores? Because that isn't the fault of employers OR the university. That's your own fault for not managing your time properly, and for not knowing when you've bitten off more than you can chew.

And if you think there was ever a time when businesses "did what they were told," I think you need to do some reading up on the US industrial revolution and the work conditions and monopolies of the late 19th century/early 20th century. Historians agree the industrial revolution was one of the most corrupt eras in American history, both politically and bureaucratically. It wasn't until strict regulation came into play after WWI and the Great Depression that they stopped hiring children and making them work in front of dangerous machinery that could mangle them in an instant, gave reasonable work hours with regular breaks, stopped jacking up railroad prices in rural areas where they had the monopolies, and became required to provide basic safety equipment such as functioning fire escapes. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_Shirtwaist_Factory_fire]

Plus the tax situation back then? It was ridiculous. See, it was property tax rather than income tax. The reason they had property taxes was because owning lots of property usually meant you had lots of money--because you were on a farm. But then the factories came. The factories could sit on a tiny plot of land and generate more in revenue than even the largest farms could ever dream of. So while the millionaire business owners were sitting on piles of money in the northeast, impoverished farmers in the south were paying the bulk of the taxes that went to pay for the infrastructure that would in turn only benefit the urban businesses. They got that changed too, but it was still in the midst of the second worst depression in American history (I'm sure you know which one was the worst).

So quit victimizing yourself. Businesses have always been out to screw people over, that doesn't mean you have to go ahead and bend over for them. Again, make YOUR education work for YOU. And if you REALLY hate it that much, why don't you just quit? Do the benefits of having the degree outweigh the little grievances you've put for there? Then suck it up. Quit whining about it and work to make your situation better. But if that's just too much work then you have no room to be complaining.

Oh, and what is this?

yes, doing what your told definately pays off

Good Lord. Did you not read what I wrote? Or is it that you just didn't comprehend my point? My point was to NOT only do exactly what you are told to do, when it comes to making decisions about your future and your education. That's just a ridiculous way to live, mindlessly following whatever path somebody else tells you to take. Yes there are requirements you must fill, but you should never just stop there.

Now, when I said getting good scores shows employers you can do what you are told, I was referring to those required tasks set before you. Because let's face it--most workplaces usually don't offer as many opportunities to be avant-garde as school. You are asked to perform certain tasks by your bosses, and you are expected to complete them. That's sort of the point of working, you know? And having good scores shows that you are able to complete those tasks with a level of efficiency and quality.

But all in all, that's a very common trait. Doing what you are told isn't exactly a rare gift. Which is why I said at the end to not JUST do that. Doing more than the minimum is a much rarer trait, and speaks worlds of your character and dedication. Ultimately, employers don't want someone who will do the job set before them. They want someone who will not only do the job, but not hesitate to do whatever more is required to do the job as best as possible.

So, summary: Following the minimum requirements for your degree is not the way to go. Broaden your horizons--do other things. Go beyond what is required and find other useful things you can do or learn on the side. Doing what you are told is no longer good enough. The reason a degree is no longer a guarantee for a job is because they are so common now. Post-graduate jobs have officially become competitive. You can't just earn your degree then sit on your ass. You've got to work yourself up and prove yourself to be worthy of your degree and your job.

 

[fulano]

I need to rant.

Do you want to know what universities are? BUSINESSES. They aren't these wonderful places of learning where free ideas propagate and bloom, or these places of immense intellectual growth where blah blah blah. This kind of garbage belongs in the movies... it is not reality. Reality would tell you that a universities are enterprises: they operate with the sole purpose of earning profits. It just so happens that their manner of earning these profits is to make you pay for your education. You give them money... they give you a piece of paper that increases your ability to get a job. Professors are their employees-- they aren't a glorious beacon of knowledge and freedom of thought, but just people doing their jobs. You are the university's client, which is referred to as a student in the industry of higher education. Stop giving universities special treatment: treat them like you would any other corporation or place of business... because THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE.

Can we please just drop this overly romanticized crap about higher education? I'm sick of these people saying thinking universities somehow special or are these magical supercool places. They're business... nothing more... nothing less. They aren't anything like the movies told you they were. You need a reality check if you think so otherwise.

Oh, this applies to American universities. If you aren't American and don't go to an American university, then please, don't tell me how "I'm wrong". I'm speaking only on what I know (which is American universities), and could care less how this generalizes to other cultures. I don't mean to sound like a jerk with this statement, but I want to avoid the inevitable "Oh, well I go to a university in X country, and this isn't true here!".

The movie "accepted" was a much funnier way of saying exactly this. Everyone should watch it.

Well I'm still a freshman.... so I'm not quite jaded enough with College Bureaucracy to agree. Maybe later?

He is butthurt either b/c he doesn't understand the difference between the actual universities and the for-profit ones, failed out, or is just royally pissed. Either way, if he had an inkling of an idea he'd understand that he's taking a shred of truth and blowing it out of proportion and into the realm of vague generalities.

My take? He is only partially correct and depending on where you are things will vary. Hell, they even vary within the universities themselves.

Universities are run for profit, plain and simple. It's an obvious truth. That doesn't make them bad. There is no reason for them not to be. Yes, it leads to some bad decisions on the part of the universities, but they still accomplish their goals, at least to some extent. Really, he's right, american universities are not places of free thought and expression. think about the firefly poster thing that has been discussed on this very site.

No. You are taking an incident and extending it into the realm of uninformed generalization.

Yes, the American model of higher education is based on profit, that much is well known, but within the model you can find all sorts of different incarnations of what a University is supposed to be and not just the assembly line equivalent of education.

To say universities are run for profit is a misconception given how they are at the cutting edge of technological and philosophical development, failed economic model nothwithstanding. That's where scientific and technological breakthroughs are carried out in the U.S., along with certain strands of the private sector, and the people there are thrilled to bothe learn and develop those things. To say otherwise is to plain be stubborn and close minded.

Cutting edge of technology? No they aren't. Clarkson University (where I went) is a pretty good, expensive, well funded engineering school, even their best equipment is a minimum of 10-15 years old. They use industrial cast-offs that are donated by alumni. Most, if not all, colleges are exactly the same.

And you said it yourself, Universities are run for profit, it's a well known fact. I wasn't "taking an incident and extending it into the realm of uninformed generalization." I was taking the sum of my experiences, as well as the experiences with all of my friends and family(surprisingly, there was no conflicting evidence) and coming to a conclusion. The firefly thing was just one example.

If you want others, how about the fact that following your advisers advice in college is likely to result in you needing a whole extra year to graduate. It happened to my brother, my sister, and two separate friends of mine at 4 different american Universities. Everyone else I know in college didn't listen to their adviser and just looked at what they needed and figured out how to get there on their own.

How about the fact that even state schools charge you over $5,000 dollars for just 4, maybe 4 and a half months of food. And the same charge for a your dorm, even the 16 by 16 box with 3 people in it.

How about the fact that many colleges have a fee you need to pay to drop a class.

colleges are run for profit, and it shows. Perhaps you are the one drawing an over-large conclusion from a too-small sample pool.

First) Friends and family don't even qualify as a sample pool; and second) You just did it again: when speaking about Clarkson University "They use industrial cast-offs that are donated by alumni. Most, if not all, colleges are exactly the same." That last sentence is so wrong that I don't even know where to begin.

What this tells me is that you're already far off into the realm of motivated reasoning (for understandable and yet rather incomplete reasons) for me to be of any use to you.

We're done. Bye.

 

[Shadu]

I'm a senior in an American college. Just saying that to get things out of the way.

Now, some of what you said, I agree with. I understand that the college is a sort of business that wants their money. There is no denying that. However, at my particular school, I have never seen any place work as hard to find as many scholarships and grants for all of their students as this one.

There are professors who seem to just being doing the 8-5 thing, but most of the ones I have are actually very passionate about what they do and about their students. They would do almost anything to help the students if the students would only ask.

I'm not saying that the American college structure is perfect, but not all colleges are completely broken and corrupt either.

 

[Shivarage]

snip

I think you proved my point, university is no longer valuable because as you said, the course is pointless if you don't have all the time in the world to go and do all the wonderful unrelated things!

 

[trooper6]

The University of Phoenix is a for-profit college...and there is a world of difference between that place and the way it treats its students and actual colleges and universities. Heck, teachers at the University of Phoenix aren't allowed to design their own courses. They get the course notes and powerpoints for corporate headquarters and each class is supposed to be taught the same way all across the country. There is a big difference between that and what happens in an actual college/university where professors profess.

If you truly think Universities are run like businesses, you don't understand universities or businesses. Those Historically Black Colleges and Universities that were founded right after the Civil War to educate former slaves who had no money and where funded by donations? Yeah, not huge profit making businesses. Still aren't.

Most Universities aren't funded by tuition from students, but from their endowments, donations, and taxpayer subsidies. GE doesn't function through donations.

As for the "romantic idea" of higher ed? I don't see much "romanticization" going on in these boards or in society in general. What I mostly hear is that University is pointless, how terrible and unfair it is that people are forced to take classes outside of their major, that Universities suck because they don't guarantee a job, or that the Humanities are stupid...etc.

 

[Shivarage]

I'm sorry, but who exactly is punishing you for having broad activities? It couldn't be the employers because they love broad resumes, and it couldn't be the university because student organizations need participation for you to survive. Or do you mean that if you participate in lots of activities, it could lower your scores? Because that isn't the fault of employers OR the university. That's your own fault for not managing your time properly, and for not knowing when you've bitten off more than you can chew.

And if you think there was ever a time when businesses "did what they were told," I think you need to do some reading up on the US industrial revolution and the work conditions and monopolies of the late 19th century/early 20th century. Historians agree the industrial revolution was one of the most corrupt eras in American history, both politically and bureaucratically. It wasn't until strict regulation came into play after WWI and the Great Depression that they stopped hiring children and making them work in front of dangerous machinery that could mangle them in an instant, gave reasonable work hours with regular breaks, stopped jacking up railroad prices in rural areas where they had the monopolies, and became required to provide basic safety equipment such as functioning fire escapes. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_Shirtwaist_Factory_fire]

Plus the tax situation back then? It was ridiculous. See, it was property tax rather than income tax. The reason they had property taxes was because owning lots of property usually meant you had lots of money--because you were on a farm. But then the factories came. The factories could sit on a tiny plot of land and generate more in revenue than even the largest farms could ever dream of. So while the millionaire business owners were sitting on piles of money in the northeast, impoverished farmers in the south were paying the bulk of the taxes that went to pay for the infrastructure that would in turn only benefit the urban businesses. They got that changed too, but it was still in the midst of the second worst depression in American history (I'm sure you know which one was the worst).

So quit victimizing yourself. Businesses have always been out to screw people over, that doesn't mean you have to go ahead and bend over for them. Again, make YOUR education work for YOU. And if you REALLY hate it that much, why don't you just quit? Do the benefits of having the degree outweigh the little grievances you've put for there? Then suck it up. Quit whining about it and work to make your situation better. But if that's just too much work then you have no room to be complaining.

Oh, and what is this?

snip

Good Lord. Did you not read what I wrote? Or is it that you just didn't comprehend my point? My point was to NOT only do exactly what you are told to do, when it comes to making decisions about your future and your education. That's just a ridiculous way to live, mindlessly following whatever path somebody else tells you to take. Yes there are requirements you must fill, but you should never just stop there.

Now, when I said getting good scores shows employers you can do what you are told, I was referring to those required tasks set before you. Because let's face it--most workplaces usually don't offer as many opportunities to be avant-garde as school. You are asked to perform certain tasks by your bosses, and you are expected to complete them. That's sort of the point of working, you know? And having good scores shows that you are able to complete those tasks with a level of efficiency and quality.

But all in all, that's a very common trait. Doing what you are told isn't exactly a rare gift. Which is why I said at the end to not JUST do that. Doing more than the minimum is a much rarer trait, and speaks worlds of your character and dedication. Ultimately, employers don't want someone who will do the job set before them. They want someone who will not only do the job, but not hesitate to do whatever more is required to do the job as best as possible.

So, summary: Following the minimum requirements for your degree is not the way to go. Broaden your horizons--do other things. Go beyond what is required and find other useful things you can do or learn on the side. Doing what you are told is no longer good enough. The reason a degree is no longer a guarantee for a job is because they are so common now. Post-graduate jobs have officially become competitive. You can't just earn your degree then sit on your ass. You've got to work yourself up and prove yourself to be worthy of your degree and your job.

snip

snip

Ok then, don't go.Your clearly too lazy to put the effort in and too stupid to succeed. Get a nice challenging job in McDonalds or KFC and enjoy your life, I honestly couldn't care.

As I said in the above quote, it wasn't just a time-sink until I got a minimum wage job, I'm working far above the minimum wage, I'm sick of some peoples attitudes where they just want to cruise through life and get angry when people who put the effort in constantly outstrip them.

So we have two opposite viewpoints, one says university is everything while the other says it's nothing.

I give up, no millionairre ever got rich as a result of "education" nor do genuinely intelligent people stay poor through any fault of their own, whether it is a lack of contacts or lack of opportunity or just because they are poor they cannot afford to (with rich people being elitists, I wouldn't count on them wishing to get involved with the commoners)

I bet neither of you can explain how valuable university actually is when "unpaid internship" completely undermines the whole meritocratic idea seeing as a lot of highly paid jobs are unaccessible to those who cannot afford to work for NOTHING.

 

[MegaManOfNumbers]

I'm going to university next year.

*reads comments*

I'm scared now. D:

 

[Shivarage]

I'm going to university next year.

*reads comments*

I'm scared now. D:

D: hey, don't be scared...

just be wary that nothing is guaranteed, make lots of contacts (those are the most important) and even if you decide to withdraw it is not the end of the world - after all, none of the business owners have qualifications

 

[trooper6]

I'm going to university next year.

*reads comments*

I'm scared now. D:

Here is my advice to you.

The point of going to University is to get an education. It is to learn. It is to expand your mind, your horizons.

People who think the point of going to University is to get a job are looking at it the wrong way. If all you want is to get a job, you can go to a Vocational school and become a Nursing Assistant or a Mechanic.

If you are going to go, unless you want to go to grad school in a specific field, it doesn't matter what you major in. Even then you can sometimes get around that. When I was getting my PhD in Musicology, I had fellow grad students who had majored in Computer Science, Economics, and Women's Studies sitting alongside of me. Major in what inspires you, major in what you love. Take a wide variety of classes. Challenge yourself. Soak up all the knowledge you can get...that also includes talking to your peers at 2 in the morning about the meaning of life, being involved in sports or a music ensemble or student government or student publications. Be part of your campus community.

Many of the things that you'll get out of college are hard to quantify, but they are the things that will help you be successful long term. College is not a collection of trivia, it is a process.