Used Games are simply another form of Piracy (THQ joins EA to stop the used games market)

[Curious Georgie]

If I purchase a copy of your game it's my fucking copy.

Surely it has always been a principle of our economic system that the ownership of a physical object entitles the owner to sell it to someone else.

125 units of the game are being played by consumers. An extra 25 people are playing the game without any additional profit for the devs.

You people are forgetting PC games and MMOs. -because of the legal nonsense got to do with piracy, when you buy a game it is not yours fully and regardless of weather of not you create more copies two things apply.

1) I cannot resell my copy of PC game X, because it is piracy
2) Even if I do create additional copies, then 125 have still played the game according to Pyros model

That is complete bullshit. Once I have payed for something, it is MY property. This is, has been and will be the economic system. EA will get sued and will lose.

 

[Dreey]

In the same sence used car dealerships are hurting the car industry, but you won't see those removed anytime soon.

 

[Curious Georgie]

Expect I play PC games, and it has been deemed that I do not legally own that copy,

Deemed by whom and where? Link to the actual law or addendum to law or court ruling would be nice.

You'll have to fish around legal stuff for that, but I can show you easier.

Go buy TF2 on steam and play it for a while. Come back to me when you've legally sold your copy to a friend.

And that is why I always go for the physical copy. Because digital distribution offers only disadvantages to me.

Go buy a copy of TF2 from the nearest store, come back to me when you have been arrested for trying to sell that DVD to a friend.

You can give him the DVD, but it wont do much good. The physical copies of TF2 are all about the serial key. Once it's installed, it gone - poof, and you cant trade it again.

If I sell it to my friend, and he tries to install it will ask him for that key - when he doesn't have it, his only option will be to pirate it.

Physical copies have nothing to do with this. It's about property ownership.

Yes, and this equates to EA SELLING something in its entirety, but not giving up the property of it. Unless they change their policy to giving person specific indefinite leases instead of actually SELLING the games, they have no legal ground. Sorry, it's just not applicable to modern day law or economics. Pioneering is fine, but we're not ready for this and it Will. Not. Float.

 

[Zacharine]

Expect I play PC games, and it has been deemed that I do not legally own that copy,

Deemed by whom and where? Link to the actual law or addendum to law or court ruling would be nice.

You'll have to fish around legal stuff for that, but I can show you easier.

Go buy TF2 on steam and play it for a while. Come back to me when you've legally sold your copy to a friend.

And that is why I always go for the physical copy. Because digital distribution offers only disadvantages to me.

Go buy a copy of TF2 from the nearest store, come back to me when you have been arrested for trying to sell that DVD to a friend.

You can give him the DVD, but it wont do much good. The physical copies of TF2 are all about the serial key. Once it's installed, it gone - poof, and you cant trade it again.

If I sell it to my friend, and he tries to install it will ask him for that key - when he doesn't have it, his only option will be to pirate it.

Physical copies have nothing to do with this. It's about property ownership.

Interesting, because even licenses can be traded.

Never met this problem with 'vanishing' CD-keys or activation codes for any physical copies of games in a resell. These include several games from the past few years.

Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that no program gets trough my firewall without my express permission - not even to authenticate in the net. Single-player games should not require the net, there I do not give them access to the net.

Never had any problems.

 

[Sneaklemming]

That is complete bullshit. Once I have payed for something, it is MY property. This is, has been and will be the economic system. EA will get sued and will lose.

I'm afraid you are mistaken. For some time games have been sold as licences for the PC platform. It's only a matter of time before console games are regarded in the same light.

 

[juliett_lima]

The different thing about piracy and buying used games is that piracy is duplicates of a copy being obtained for free, which is illegal. But, buying used games involves 1 copy that was bought legally, and is now being shared (through trading, buying used). EA or who ever is the publisher/developer should not be getting money for that 1 copy over and over again.

I think the argument is that the games company loses out on the sale of a game (not that I agree with it, but here it is)

Company A sells 100 units to Gamestation

Gamestation sells 50 of those units on the first day

on the second day, 25 of those units are returned

Gamestation now has 75 units, 25 of which are being sold at a cheaper price

50 more units are sold that day, but only 25 of those give any money back to the pub/dev.


Essentially, someone buying a used game is NOT buying an unused one, and the store gets all the moolah off of it, with nothing going to the pub/dev as you would expect.

but as I said, it's perfectly legal and should remain that way, unless, I dunno, they change the fine print. and then the games company would refuse to trade, and they'd lose money.

 

[veloper]

While selling games for a couple cents to buy used games in shops for near full-price is so mindnumbingly stupid it's almost a crime, trading games with other gamers is perfectly good.

EA are correct in that reducing resale will make them alot more money than trying to prevent piracy. Not nice, but true.

 

[Sneaklemming]

Um -

theres no doubt that trading in used games is completely legal - but that's the point of the thread.

They do the same harm as Piracy - not that they ARE piracy... sheesh

 

[Curious Georgie]

That is complete bullshit. Once I have payed for something, it is MY property. This is, has been and will be the economic system. EA will get sued and will lose.

I'm afraid you are mistaken. For some time games have been sold as licences for the PC platform. It's only a matter of time before console games are regarded in the same light.

Have fun with that fantasy world of yours, mr. I-know-it-all-and-can't-accept-reality. You work for EA, don't you? Sad.

 

[Sneaklemming]

That is complete bullshit. Once I have payed for something, it is MY property. This is, has been and will be the economic system. EA will get sued and will lose.

I'm afraid you are mistaken. For some time games have been sold as licences for the PC platform. It's only a matter of time before console games are regarded in the same light.

Have fun with that fantasy world of yours, mr. I-know-it-all-and-can't-accept-reality. You work for EA, don't you? Sad.

No dude, I think its terrible too. It's just being a PC gamer I'm more used to the idea now. I still think it's utter crap, and the publishers trying to screw over paying consumers.

Think about Bioshock 1, it let you install it 3 times when it released - argument being - you didn't really own the game.

 

[Zacharine]

The different thing about piracy and buying used games is that piracy is duplicates of a copy being obtained for free, which is illegal. But, buying used games involves 1 copy that was bought legally, and is now being shared (through trading, buying used). EA or who ever is the publisher/developer should not be getting money for that 1 copy over and over again.

I think the argument is that the games company loses out on the sale of a game (not that I agree with it, but here it is)

Company A sells 100 units to Gamestation

Gamestation sells 50 of those units on the first day

on the second day, 25 of those units are returned

Gamestation now has 75 units, 25 of which are being sold at a cheaper price

50 more units are sold that day, but only 25 of those give any money back to the pub/dev.


Essentially, someone buying a used game is NOT buying an unused one, and the store gets all the moolah off of it, with nothing going to the pub/dev as you would expect.

but as I said, it's perfectly legal and should remain that way, unless, I dunno, they change the fine print. and then the games company would refuse to trade, and they'd lose money.

And yet, company A only had to manufacture and ship 100 units. Miscalculating how much you will sell is a danger for any business, just as is product development that eventually might lead to nothing useful.

Standard dangers of doing business. Video game publishers simply are whining about it, because they think potential proit should equal real profit, and it hasn't apparently hit them yet that there are no guarantees and that they are not any different (from legal standpoint) than car or cell-phone manufacturers.

You don't see Nokia whining that their smart-phones don't sell as well as the iPhone despite their R&D budget that trumps annual budgets of smaller nations... They simply suck it up, ackowledge there is a fault and try again after a new round of measures around the R&D department.

 

[Sneaklemming]

Video game publishers simply are whining about it, because they think potential proit should equal real profit, and it hasn't apparently hit them yet that there are no guarantees and that they are not any different

Thats the problem here. It's also why they quote these crazy numbers of sales lost to piracy.

Publishes look at potential lost sales, and right next to piracy is used games.

I'm not saying that trading second hand games is piracy, but that the effect on the industry is the same.

There is however a much greater argument for saying that used game sales are lost sales, since the cost is usually only slightly different. Also that people do pay some amount for used games, but incur no cost to pirated games.

Still I think the every used/pirated copy is a lost sale, is a stupid argument.

 

[cicaba]

A lot of people here don't understand that you don't buy the game, you buy the ability to use the game, you personally. Who else would want to buy that?

Selling on again used games with this sort of legislation/copyright (or something) is piracy and that's fine in my opinion. You don't have to agree to this deal in which you have nothing to sell if you get bored because you don't have to buy the game in the first place.

 

[cicaba]

A lot of people here don't understand that you don't buy the game, you buy the ability to use the game, you personally. Who else would want to buy that?

Selling on again used games with this sort of legislation/copyright (or something) is piracy and that's fine in my opinion. You don't have to agree to this deal in which you have nothing to sell if you get bored because you don't have to buy the game in the first place.

 

[Koeryn]

It's not another form of Piracy.

Second hand marketing has been around for ages, and nobody has complained about them before. We have all been OK with second hand stores for clothing, buying used Television sets, flea markets, the works. But now, because video game publishers say it's hurting the industry, it's suddenly wrong?

Fuck no, it's not wrong.

If I'm tired of something I own, something I either can't get enjoyment out of, or something if it's something I want to replace with something better, should I simply have to throw that thing away? Why can't I make a profit and sell it to someone else who needs it? Am I a bad person for helping someone acquire something they want for an even cheaper price than at the store? No, I'm not. I'm a good person for giving someone that opportunity.

Again. I disagree.
Second hand clothes, toasters, cars dont have same value as a second hand game. Used clothes may be in some way damaged, have bleached colors, wont last for as long etc. There is a valid reason why those things are that much cheaper than brand new. All those things just arent as good as they would be if bought new from shop. You pay less for a flaw in performance/usability.

This isint the case with games tho. You still get the same game, with same features, same gameplay time. Nothing changes, the game wont become shorter or less playable because its used and the only person that benfits from such sale is the guy you bought it form. No the devs, not the publisher, noone in the actual game industry.

Now why is it worst than piracy? Because you spend money on the game but the game industry doesnt get this money. You just give it to some random guy .

Are you kidding? Second hand clothes are awesome. They're already broken in and comfortable. Seriously, I've had the same pair of secondhand jeans for shit, close to ten years now, and they're still in great shape and horrifically comfortable (And I wear them regularly). You just gotta know how to shop.

As far as used games go, you run the risk of a scratch removing half the game (happened with Final Fantasy VII to me. ), so really you have the same risks associated with buying used vs new cars/clothes/electronics as you do with used vs new video games.

 

[RanD00M]

It's not the same as piracy.

===Used==
Company A sells 100 units of Game B.

25 units of that game are sold again as used.

Company A has still been paid for 100 units of the game.

Only 100 units of the game are being played by consumers(not counting piracy).

===Pirated==
Company A sells 100 units of Game B.

25 units of that game are pirated.

Company A has still been paid for 100 units of the game.

125 units of the game are being played by consumers. An extra 25 people are playing the game without any additional profit for the devs.

==========

This is just a way for publishers to squeeze more money out of the industry. Re-selling games is no different from re-selling any other physical commodity(in the case of software what is really being resold is the licence to use the software, but that's just semantics). And really should not be restricted in this manor.

I agree with this.It's like selling a used car.The car maker still got some money from the original sale.And the person that sold the car used sold it for a lower price then he payed the car company,so the car company has nothing to complain about.

 

[EkajArmstro]

The thing most people are forgetting is that if you pirate a game then everyone who pirates it gets to keep it. If a person sells a used game then they are giving up the right to play it again themselves. It's only piracy if a person copies a game for themself (like it would be very easy to do on the PC) and then resells it.

 

[juliett_lima]

snip

I agree with this.It's like selling a used car.The car maker still got some money from the original sale.And the person that sold the car used sold it for a lower price then he payed the car company,so the car company has nothing to complain about.

mmm yes, but the sale of the used car meant that the buyer didn't buy that car from the original retailer - if the second hand dealer hadn't sold him the 2nd hand car, he would have bought the same car from the retailer, at a profit to the original company.

 

[Zacharine]

Video game publishers simply are whining about it, because they think potential proit should equal real profit, and it hasn't apparently hit them yet that there are no guarantees and that they are not any different

Thats the problem here. It's also why they quote these crazy numbers of sales lost to piracy.

Publishes look at potential lost sales, and right next to piracy is used games.

I'm not saying that trading second hand games is piracy, but that the effect on the industry is the same.

There is however a much greater argument for saying that used game sales are lost sales.

That there is. However, lost sales are only the difference between whatever predicted potential profit, and the real profit, and is thus largely theoretical: you can count potential sales in so many different ways, it isn't really a meaningful financial number. Companies just like to throw it around because most peolple do not realize this inherent dependability the number has on the one who does the counting.

Second-hand sales however is a part of the fundamental nature of private ownership and western legal system. That the companies don't like it is nothing new, what is new is the brazen boldness that video game publishers moan and whine about it.