Well... here we go. Obscenity in Manga trial.
- Thread starter The Wooster
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Yes, lets use the "no children were harmed in the creation of child hentai argument"
And to be honest, for that reason, it should not be allowed to be sold to minors, but it's not child pornography. The differences between pornography (affectionately dubbed, "Adult") and it's daughter child pornography is just the age of the actors/actresses. Due to fact that legal emancipation takes place at age 18, anything below that is considered technically "child pornography" even if said actress is 17 years, 365 days old an a leap year.
But the "Do what floats your boat" argument does not hold up nearly as well
However, like i said earlier, it should still be monitored. Just because you can create pornographic imagines yourself (and "you" being a 15 year old pervert), does not mean that you have any business viewing it. For example, imagine that "you," in all your programming glory, have just created a game so violent that GoW3 could get released on the wii in comparison. Does that mean that you have any (legal) business playing such game? The answer is no.
I personally see viewing hentai as one of those "you can, but why?" choices that people make only due to their own personal love for it, or hate for what it is replacing. Regardless of how vile and disgusting I find masturbating to 10 year old girls with eyes the size of the moon, breast to match, and random animal parts placed all over their bodies... I still cannot make a reasonable argument against it (as long as your over 18, 21 in some states). If no children are harmed, than the premise of the Lolita laws is all but non-existent.
But at least keep in mind that you may be masturbating to you're daughters favorite cartoon character you sick bastard! Lol, just kidding.
And to be honest, for that reason, it should not be allowed to be sold to minors, but it's not child pornography. The differences between pornography (affectionately dubbed, "Adult") and it's daughter child pornography is just the age of the actors/actresses. Due to fact that legal emancipation takes place at age 18, anything below that is considered technically "child pornography" even if said actress is 17 years, 365 days old an a leap year.
But the "Do what floats your boat" argument does not hold up nearly as well
However, like i said earlier, it should still be monitored. Just because you can create pornographic imagines yourself (and "you" being a 15 year old pervert), does not mean that you have any business viewing it. For example, imagine that "you," in all your programming glory, have just created a game so violent that GoW3 could get released on the wii in comparison. Does that mean that you have any (legal) business playing such game? The answer is no.
I personally see viewing hentai as one of those "you can, but why?" choices that people make only due to their own personal love for it, or hate for what it is replacing. Regardless of how vile and disgusting I find masturbating to 10 year old girls with eyes the size of the moon, breast to match, and random animal parts placed all over their bodies... I still cannot make a reasonable argument against it (as long as your over 18, 21 in some states). If no children are harmed, than the premise of the Lolita laws is all but non-existent.
But at least keep in mind that you may be masturbating to you're daughters favorite cartoon character you sick bastard! Lol, just kidding.
Whats wrong with Captain Picard?Michael_McCloud said:
(I was hoping someone would say CP, just so I could say that)Anyway, as for my actually feelings towards this, I do think the guy should be let off lightly, lightly compared to 20 years that is, cause (as every almost every person in this thread has said) it is just a drawing. Ink on paper should not get you 20 years. Or any years for that matter. If he was going to get punished, probation and community service would do him better than prison. If guys in prison found out why he was in there, it would probably get changed and theyd think he was a child molester and then hed be really fucked. Literally.
But, hey, what do I care? I live in Ireland and dont read much manga so the chances of this affecting me and close to nil.
Okay...I'm speaking as a concerned American here. I think that our country has gotten itself in deep enough trying to be WORLD police. Now we're trying to be THOUGHT police. There are real child molesters who are getting a slap on the wrist or going free while people waste time and money pursuing people like this who haven't done anything. If he DOES do something, they know where to find him, and that's all well and good. But just like our military, our legal system is being stretched too thinly to cover the important areas AND the stupid squabbles, and there are many places where it should extend its reach that it neglects to. I think our focus as a nation is in all the wrong places.
Getting back to the topic at hand, I feel as if morals instilled by fear or government control mean less than morals adopted by choice. If they're not causing anyone any harm, let them be. People will behave the way they're going to behave regardless of what the government says. They'll just build a little community around whatever their clandestine activity happens to be, and it'll get worse.
Getting back to the topic at hand, I feel as if morals instilled by fear or government control mean less than morals adopted by choice. If they're not causing anyone any harm, let them be. People will behave the way they're going to behave regardless of what the government says. They'll just build a little community around whatever their clandestine activity happens to be, and it'll get worse.
It gets worse than that, you're not familiar with the origin of 'AWWRIGHTTT!!!' are you?Ultrajoe said:
I didn't even know there was anything to download... I just searched it on google images with no safe search on subsequently contemplated suicide before returning to this board.Ultrajoe said:
I know people hate those that judge, but everybody judges so get over it! Child (and as i've just learned, Baby) Hentai is a sick fuck for sick fucks (my opinion). Although I spent a post thoroughly defending that it should NOT considered "CP," that doesn't change the fact that I find it utterly repulsive.
If you feel that I am being too "judgmental" feel free to rant about how repulsive my attraction to real woman around the age of 20 is and then we can call it even.
If drawings, wether erotic or not, are classified as child porn, you've crossed over into applying REAL WORLD laws on FICTION. Meaning that if drawing hentai, loli, or whatever is producing child porn, then drawing someone getting killed is commiting murder.
And why draw the line there? Why aren't erotic drawing of adult women being raped and killed as important as fictional children? People are picking and choosing different tastes to legislate and its wrong. Putting people in jail for cartoons is wrong.
If this passes:
Seth McFarlane produced child porn for this S&M scene done to an infant
You can say "OMG ITS SUPPOST TO BE FUNNY", but it doesn't matter according to the law, its an underaged character in a sexual situation.
And why draw the line there? Why aren't erotic drawing of adult women being raped and killed as important as fictional children? People are picking and choosing different tastes to legislate and its wrong. Putting people in jail for cartoons is wrong.
If this passes:
Seth McFarlane produced child porn for this S&M scene done to an infant
You can say "OMG ITS SUPPOST TO BE FUNNY", but it doesn't matter according to the law, its an underaged character in a sexual situation.
That was exactly my point. Child pornography is only different than adult pornography because of the age of the actresses/actors. Since there are no actresses/actors (make sure the voice actors are over 18 i guess) in hentai, than it should just be filed under regular Pornography, regardless of how sick and child-infested it might be.Nurb said:If drawings, wether erotic or not, are classified as child porn, you've crossed over into applying REAL WORLD laws on FICTION. Meaning that if drawing hentai, loli, or whatever is producing child porn, then drawing someone getting killed is commiting murder.
And why draw the line there? Why aren't erotic drawing of adult women being raped and killed as important as fictional children? People are picking and choosing different tastes to legislate and its wrong. Putting people in jail for cartoons is wrong.
If this passes:
Seth McFarlane produced child porn for this S&M scene done to an infant
Creators of simpsons obscenely showed bart's dick in the movie
You can say "OMG ITS SUPPOST TO BE FUNNY", but it doesn't matter according to the law, its an underaged character in a sexual situation.
As rules 36 and 42 of the internet state, there's worse out there. This is something I can attest to myself, anybody who finds hentai to be "sick" or "nasty" or any other similar reactions, simply hasn't found that one little corner of the web yet dedicated to people who find truly the most bizzare things to be erotic.wavebossa said:
Hey guys, I have an update. I'm not really an anime fan, but I've been tracking this story to see how it goes after a friend pointed it out. Here is the link, from the Anime News Network:
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2008-11-24/lawyer-indicates-manga-in-iowa-obscenity-case-are-yaoi
Yeah, it isn't actually loli, it is yaoi. Basically, the male characters are over 18 in the manga (The manga in question is still unnamed), but, as any anime/manga fan would know, the art style makes characters look younger than they actually are. Likewise, the characters lack pubic hair, not because they are underage, but because of Japanese laws. However, they still seem to be pushing that the characters are underage, for some reason or another.
That said, even IF the characters were underage, I still think it is fucking ridiculous. Okay, yes, it is sick if you ask me, but they aren't REAL. If this was real kiddie porn involving real children then yes, burn him with fire, but it ISN'T. A hentai manga showing underage characters shouldn't be the same as child porn, because it is just drawings on a piece of paper. Sure, it is sick, but looking at it shouldn't result in the same sentencing. I mean, 20 years is more than many rape cases, as others pointed out, and all the person did was look at some drawings. I do see how loli hentai could lead to other, more dangerous and destructive habits, but it shouldn't carry the same sentence, or in this case, actually worse, than possessing real child pornography.
And guys, this should concern us all. It should concern the anime fans because this could lead to a crackdown on manga and anime in America. It should concern us gamers because this same logic can be severely twisted into something like "soliciting sex from a hooker in GTA is considered real prostitution" or, even worse, "murdering a character in GTA should be considered real murder." It might seem far-fetched, but just look at this case, where a drawing is basically being treated as a human being.
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2008-11-24/lawyer-indicates-manga-in-iowa-obscenity-case-are-yaoi
Yeah, it isn't actually loli, it is yaoi. Basically, the male characters are over 18 in the manga (The manga in question is still unnamed), but, as any anime/manga fan would know, the art style makes characters look younger than they actually are. Likewise, the characters lack pubic hair, not because they are underage, but because of Japanese laws. However, they still seem to be pushing that the characters are underage, for some reason or another.
That said, even IF the characters were underage, I still think it is fucking ridiculous. Okay, yes, it is sick if you ask me, but they aren't REAL. If this was real kiddie porn involving real children then yes, burn him with fire, but it ISN'T. A hentai manga showing underage characters shouldn't be the same as child porn, because it is just drawings on a piece of paper. Sure, it is sick, but looking at it shouldn't result in the same sentencing. I mean, 20 years is more than many rape cases, as others pointed out, and all the person did was look at some drawings. I do see how loli hentai could lead to other, more dangerous and destructive habits, but it shouldn't carry the same sentence, or in this case, actually worse, than possessing real child pornography.
And guys, this should concern us all. It should concern the anime fans because this could lead to a crackdown on manga and anime in America. It should concern us gamers because this same logic can be severely twisted into something like "soliciting sex from a hooker in GTA is considered real prostitution" or, even worse, "murdering a character in GTA should be considered real murder." It might seem far-fetched, but just look at this case, where a drawing is basically being treated as a human being.
The lolicon niche of the hentai industry is a huge source for debate over these issues.
Fact is no children were hurt in the creation of those materials and people jacking off to pictures of Card Captor Sakura or the girls of Lucky Star can easily to fall into the psychological category of comfort figure sexual expression that ends in people masturbating with childhood stuffed animals (which is incredibly common).
Whether someone else finds this obscene or not, this is something that is done in privacy, rarely if ever discussed, and is not a manifestation of unhealthy or dangerous psychology.
On the other hand
Laws exist to protect society, and so the general sentiments of what society considers "obscene" should be taken over an individual. Luckily there is a pretty severe measure that this is put up against, usually using victimization as a deciding factor.
In the case of "lolicon" in particular, this type of material is a mechanism of reinforcement for pedophilic ideation for people at risk for this type of behavior, and far from providing a cathartic release for these thoughts, it solidifies them, leading to abuse situations. This is why there is very little public tolerance for this type of manga (one of the worst sources for this type of material).
There is an irony attached to this given the success of this material in online situations were anonymity is all but assured. This is a dangerous scenario in my opinion, if we can't deal with these issues on a public forum what is going to happen when they move into the realm of potentially dangerous scenarios? And putting people who are just reading this material on the same level as those who act it out (which is what inevitably happens) an unjust system of "conformity or else" establishes itself. What if you were sent to gitmo for forgetting to pay a parking ticket?
Fact is no children were hurt in the creation of those materials and people jacking off to pictures of Card Captor Sakura or the girls of Lucky Star can easily to fall into the psychological category of comfort figure sexual expression that ends in people masturbating with childhood stuffed animals (which is incredibly common).
Whether someone else finds this obscene or not, this is something that is done in privacy, rarely if ever discussed, and is not a manifestation of unhealthy or dangerous psychology.
On the other hand
Laws exist to protect society, and so the general sentiments of what society considers "obscene" should be taken over an individual. Luckily there is a pretty severe measure that this is put up against, usually using victimization as a deciding factor.
In the case of "lolicon" in particular, this type of material is a mechanism of reinforcement for pedophilic ideation for people at risk for this type of behavior, and far from providing a cathartic release for these thoughts, it solidifies them, leading to abuse situations. This is why there is very little public tolerance for this type of manga (one of the worst sources for this type of material).
There is an irony attached to this given the success of this material in online situations were anonymity is all but assured. This is a dangerous scenario in my opinion, if we can't deal with these issues on a public forum what is going to happen when they move into the realm of potentially dangerous scenarios? And putting people who are just reading this material on the same level as those who act it out (which is what inevitably happens) an unjust system of "conformity or else" establishes itself. What if you were sent to gitmo for forgetting to pay a parking ticket?