"Western games don't have good storys"

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Vault101

I'm in your mind fuzz
Sep 26, 2010
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Declan Skews said:
Vault101 said:
but what alternitive is he talking about? JRPG's? yeah because we know how highly regarded they are around thease parts....."especially" for their storys

that said how ever I dont know much about Japanese games
You slam Japanese games with one breath and then admit to not having s solid working knowledge of them the next. That is either the height of ignorance or just downright arrogant. Not really sure which. If you are going to express a negative opinion on something, at least make sure you are speaking from a position of relative knowledge and understanding.

And just to set the record straight, I like JRPGs but no, I am not commenting on your apparent dislike of JRPGs so much as I am commenting on the fact that you admit that you do not really know much about them.

As far as game stories go, I cannot agree with your statements at all as I feel there are some amazing stories within games and I personally feel that most games I play have better stories than most movies I watch. Some games I feel have stories that match, if not surpass, some novels that I have read.

As far as the whole thing about Western games and stories go, I personally enjoyed the stories of Red Dead Redemption and Half-Life 2 and I felt they were quite well written. Other than that, the story within any game has the potential to be as good or as bad as the writer(s) make it. If you get a talented writer to write the story of a Western game then it may well have the most amazing story of all time. Conversely it may not. Making the generalisation that the quality of the story within a game is dependent on where it was developed is complete nonsense.
It wasnt really my intention to say that "Japanise games are crap!!" no not at all

and yeah I only know about JRPG's from the snide comments from yahtzee and others on this site, im pretty sure not all of them are bad

anyway the statment to me just seemed rather insane as western games are whats around alot more thease days (well from my perspective) and everyone likes to talk about "story"alot I mean its become another thing to judge a game on other than gameplay
 

NickCaligo42

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Duffeknol said:
Bioware.

Wups there goes everything Bob claimed right out the window.
I disagree.

I think Bioware has good writers. I think they know how to craft good dialogue and characters that're really entertaining to be around, though they rely a little too strongly on recycling the same archetypes from game to game ("Oh, hi again, Carth/Caden/Carver! I see you've gotten even more bland and irritating than you were the last time I saw you! How's Imoen/Bastila/Ashley doing this game?").

I never felt like they knew how to tell a good story, though. Sometimes they get lucky and come up with something compelling, but they lack a sense of focus or discipline. They often suggest interesting story ideas somewhere or another, but much of the time they don't get enough exploration.

A good example is the "Dead Reaper" in Mass Effect 2. That's a cool concept, it helps move the main story along in a logical fashion, and it starts to build some interesting atmosphere, but it stops just short of realizing any potential that it might've had as a sub-plot in itself.

We could have learned a lot more about the Reapers, a valuable (if horrifying) insight into our enemy, we could have faced hard decisions as the crew reacts in different ways to the Reaper's powers, we could have established a dramatic weakness in our own ability to fight the reapers that way, but it turns out to be a purely utilitarian scenario to move the game forward and put Legion in the party--after which Legion doesn't get fleshed out, even in his own special mission, and the dead Reaper angle gets dropped entirely.

Another good example is the human Noble introduction in Dragon Age: Origins. There's interesting ingredients for a story here: two noble houses in conflict in a time of strife; rival families split by a political divide in the middle of the blight. It's almost the stuff of Shakespeare. Unfortunately, none of those concepts sees any attention. Instead, we go upstairs to deliver a message to our brother and kill rats in our mom's pantry. Then, in the middle of the night, for no reason, with no build-up to speak of, the guy we met in the first scene for about two seconds, whom we had no reason to suspect as a traitor, stages a coup detat against our family.

Although the game eventually portions out more info fleshing out the world and what Arl Howe's motives were (it's not anything interesting or fleshed out--just power and opportunism), this scenario itself does an extremely poor job of acquainting the player with the political climate of Dragon Age: Origins, building up to his initial betrayal, or even establishing clear differentiation between his family and the player. Eventually we get something compelling out of our rivalry with him and his persistence in rubbing our defeat and the death of our whole family in our face, but that puts this story maybe in the same league as The Lion King.

It's brutally, brutally simplistic and utilitarian storytelling. Basically, the content designers dictate to the writers what they're going to make, say "write us some dialogue," and they get to it. They have basic goals they want to get done in the story, some challenges/level designs they want to flesh out, but the writers don't have nearly enough control to be able to give us focus on what's actually dramatically interesting in each scenario in the game. The trouble is that Bioware is entirely convinced that games must inherently be HUGE experiences spanning whole worlds, whole GALAXIES--so they develop big, monumental storylines that don't encompass a single focus, but dozens upon dozens of sub-stories. It's tabletop role-playing game tradition to take the Scooby-Doo approach to storytelling, with players finding themselves in a new place every adventure. That's all well and good for a game, but if you didn't have a novel dialogue system and a halfway passable combat system attached to it, and if you weren't appealing to players' egos with their usual shtick of power and authority, I don't think you'd sit in theaters for the kind of writing that they produce.
 

Vault101

I'm in your mind fuzz
Sep 26, 2010
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funguy2121 said:
Vault101 said:
Ok Bob what the hell are you talking about?

anyway If you havnt seen MovieBobs video basically thats what he said

now dont get me wrong Im not about to go ranting about Moviebob even after all the crazy stuff he said about PC gaming dying I dont have to agree with him all the time to respect his opionion (no not in that case however, that just felt like trolling)

anyway If by that perhaps he means that when it comes Down to it most games storys are not the complex and are generally at B movie level, then yes I can sort of understand where he's coming from

however I still think plenty of games have good storys and sure I dont ask much from videogame storys other than they keep me interested at least

but what alternitive is he talking about? JRPG's? yeah because we know how highly regarded they are around thease parts....."especially" for their storys

that said how ever I dont know much about Japanese games
Which column/web comic are you referring to, OP?

MovieBob seemed fine with Metroid: Other M's story, and that story sucked ass. The murderer? What murderer? Let's not even mention it. And y'know that cool direction we were going in where it looked like the alway-holy Federation was harvesting metroids as bioweapons? Yeah, let's tie a neat little bow on it and say it was just a few bad apples (and never identify them) so no one can come after us and make an actually decent game.
it was his "big picture" video called "off the charts" where he talks about an Uncharted movie

also yeah, his comments about other M were...interesting to say the least
 

Duffeknol

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Mikeyfell said:
Duffeknol said:
Bioware.

Wups there goes everything Bob claimed right out the window.
Well, there's a difference between a good story and good writing.

Think about the "Story" for Mass Effect.

There are evil robot aliens that want to destroy all life in the universe and you are the only one who can stop them.

or Dragon Age

There's a race of evil monsters that want to destroy all life on the planet and you are the only one who can stop them. There's also this guy on a power trip and you are the only one who can stop him.
Actually you're mixing up a couple of things. 'Story' is not 'plot summary'. That way, you can make anything sound simplistic and stupid. Here, look:
Citizen Kane - Young man turns into a weird recluse. Is that the story of Citizen Kane? Hell no.
Also, if you'd ask someone to actually tell the story of Mass Effect, and if he'd do that in a little bit more detail, it automatically gets better. You'd start with a character introduction: 'Commander Shepard is the first human Spectre, which is a really big deal because of . See what I'm getting at? That's the story, not just a summary of the plot.

Say, I take the book Lord of the Rings and I read the back. Basically I can sum it up as 'weird little creature with big feet has to burn a ring in order to save the world'. Pretty fucking stupid if you ask me. But is that the story of Lord of the Rings? Or is it what's actually written in the hundreds of pages in the book? Isn't the writing of the book the exact same thing as the actual story?

Like Extra Credits pretty much claimed: the story of a game is communicated to the player in a lot of different ways; gameplay mechanics, dialog, codex entries, whatever. Or is that all just the 'writing'?

Basically, what it comes down to, I think Bob mixed up the terms 'plot' and 'story'. Yes, Western games mostly have silly, simplistic plots, even I can agree with that. But a lot of them have great stories to them, since a story is so much, much more.
 

Vault101

I'm in your mind fuzz
Sep 26, 2010
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dsawyers9 said:
Mass Effect is a top story game, made by a western company.
As for your minor rant on Moviebob, basically the entire clip was about how "PC" game, as in a bulky Personal Computer that takes up half your room will be no more. The entire clip was discussing how keyboards will be outdated, we wont use mouses like we do now, and our games will be easy to carry and basically portable. I am looking forward to PC gaming dying off. I want new technology that I can use at any time, anywhere.
Basically he might as well have been saying that "console gaming is dying" because I doubt consoles as we know them will be around for at least another generation after this one, no technology will change, principle of convergence and all that

I juat feel the way he was presenting his argument was just to get a reaction, we all know technology is changeing duh

anyway I also dont like the argument "if you disagree with me your only proving me right"

anywaythats just me
 

Vampire cat

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Apr 21, 2010
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If we're talking about the same episode of whatever, what he DID say was "...has a good story, for a western RPG." Obviously he seems to not have a high opinion about the average western RPG's story, but he never said that they all suck. I'm sure he too recognizes that all "rules" have exceptions.

And NO, I'm not his lawyer, I'm not here to defend him he can do that himself, I'm just stating the facts... Now, if I'm talking about the wrong thing here, I'm sorry...
 

Duffeknol

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NickCaligo42 said:
Duffeknol said:
Bioware.

Wups there goes everything Bob claimed right out the window.
-snip-
I understand where you're coming from, but please read the edit I made on my original post.

Writing = the story. In a book it's everything that's written, in a game it's everything you encounter and go through. I want to create a clear difference between what should be considered 'plot' and what should be seen as 'story'. Imo, the story incorporates everything, including the plot. The plot just includes, well, the plot.
 

katsumoto03

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stormtrooper9091 said:
Duffeknol said:
Bioware.

Wups there goes everything Bob claimed right out the window.
Bob even liked Avatar so it's not as if he's got much credibility anyway
Yes, because god forbid he gives his honest opinion rather than clamp his lips around the "I hate Avatar because (Insert pathetic excuse)" phallus.

Honestly, it's true. Even when you look at the "better" (AKA Bioware) Western RPG story ideas, they're pretty bland compared to Japan's. Mass Effect, for example: Machines want to kill all life for noms (Ohai thar, Matrix).

Now, Japanese games on the other hand tend to have great and exciting ideas that actually seem to come from a Human's imagination.

The thing is, while JRPGs tend to have amazing ideas backing them up, and Western RPGs are all within the American "Safety Zone" (I.E. Comfortable settings that aren't too "weird"), it's all about the execution. JRPGs are frequently unfocused messes that only play off of hints of the original idea, whereas Western developers (Once again, like Bioware) have mastered the technique of delivering these seemingly bland ideas into brilliant gems. A clean, nicely cut piece of glass is always going to look better than a dirty, cracked shard of a diamond.
 

Pyro Paul

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mireko said:
Pyro Paul said:
Resident Evil is a much more fleshed out and well written story then Mass Effect...
Oh wow, this post is a sheer derpgasm.

Mass Effect has an excellent story, and if you think it's all about the main antagonist's motivation then you need to sit down and re-evaluate your life.
Acctually not.
Mass Effect has a bare basic story.

It is the Narrative which drives the story to be compelling and intresting. but when you ignore the narrative and look at the plot itself it turns out to be a simple 'Big Threat! Save the Universe Shepard!!' story structure which is played out over and over again. If you believe that the reapers serve any other purpouse then to be the 'Big Threat' maybe you should go through the game again...

on the other hand Look at the bare basic story of Resident Evil.

A power hungry antagonist seeks to gain personal power through the exploits of an evil corperation. Said evil corperation is trying to shut up an over run facility/city. Protaganist tries to survive. Resident Evil 1-4 where not about saving the world or stopping umbrella... it was to escape the city/facility/town with your/friends life while the over reaching story between Umbrella and greedy employees worked out itself. That is an intresting and compelling story in and of itself which has multipule layers of interaction and such room to evolve.

Why resident evil stories are laughable however, is because they have such poor narrative. you have little to no feeling for the individuals you play or encounter. Even as events unfold you often feel powerless to their happening.
 

Mikeyfell

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Aug 24, 2010
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Duffeknol said:
Mikeyfell said:
Duffeknol said:
Bioware.

Wups there goes everything Bob claimed right out the window.
Well, there's a difference between a good story and good writing.

Think about the "Story" for Mass Effect.

There are evil robot aliens that want to destroy all life in the universe and you are the only one who can stop them.

or Dragon Age

There's a race of evil monsters that want to destroy all life on the planet and you are the only one who can stop them. There's also this guy on a power trip and you are the only one who can stop him.
Actually you're mixing up a couple of things. 'Story' is not 'plot summary'. That way, you can make anything sound simplistic and stupid. Here, look:
Citizen Kane - Young man turns into a weird recluse. Is that the story of Citizen Kane? Hell no.
Also, if you'd ask someone to actually tell the story of Mass Effect, and if he'd do that in a little bit more detail, it automatically gets better. You'd start with a character introduction: 'Commander Shepard is the first human Spectre, which is a really big deal because of . See what I'm getting at? That's the story, not just a summary of the plot.

Say, I take the book Lord of the Rings and I read the back. Basically I can sum it up as 'weird little creature with big feet has to burn a ring in order to save the world'. Pretty fucking stupid if you ask me. But is that the story of Lord of the Rings? Or is it what's actually written in the hundreds of pages in the book? Isn't the writing of the book the exact same thing as the actual story?

Like Extra Credits pretty much claimed: the story If we're going to talk about "story" "plot" and "writing" as 3 different things we might as well call this "Atmosphere" of a game is communicated to the player in a lot of different ways; gameplay mechanics, dialog, codex entries, whatever. Or is that all just the 'writing'?

Basically, what it comes down to, I think Bob mixed up the terms 'plot' and 'story'. Yes, Western games mostly have silly, simplistic plots, even I can agree with that. But a lot of them have great stories to them, since a story is so much, much more.
Okay, I'll own this one I got "plot" and "story" mixed up but it doesn't change what I meant. And what I meant was: it's the diction (writing) that makes the narrative (or what ever we're calling the whole package) standout. The plot can be "Kill evil aliens." while the story is "Racist aliens give a human a title but still don't believe him/her until it's too late." but it's the writing that makes it Mass Effect.
 

Cheesepower5

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Has it occurred to anyone that MovieBob doesn't have the same idea of good as you? I THINK that what he means is, that when he looks at Western AAA games he sees a sea of Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, Blackhawk Down, Platoon and Starship Troopers rip-offs. Which is fairly reasonable. He looks at Japanese AAA games and sees an Italian plumber saving a princess in a far-out kingdom, a cyber-punk adventure story, and other such fun stuff.

And I'm not going to lie, 90% of you are stereotyping Japanese games WAY more than he's stereotyping Western ones.
 

Mikeyfell

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Zhukov said:
Meh.

All games have bad stories. Regardless of whether they come from east or west.

Even the really good games are only on the level of a mediocre film or book. Bioshock, Mass Effect 1&2, Dragon Age, Ico, Shadow of the Colossus, Portal, Half Life 2, Sands of Time, Assassin's Creed, The Longest Journey, whatever.

You can kid yourself all you like but the hard truth is that in terms of storytelling, every single one of them, and any other game you care to name, pales in comparison to a well-written book.
We shall all bow before the undisputed opinion of Captain Ignorance

Judging a story by it's medium and not by its content is a true mark of brilliance sir.
Roger Ebert would be proud of you.
 

Zhukov

The Laughing Arsehole
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Mikeyfell said:
Zhukov said:
Meh.

All games have bad stories. Regardless of whether they come from east or west.

Even the really good games are only on the level of a mediocre film or book. Bioshock, Mass Effect 1&2, Dragon Age, Ico, Shadow of the Colossus, Portal, Half Life 2, Sands of Time, Assassin's Creed, The Longest Journey, whatever.

You can kid yourself all you like but the hard truth is that in terms of storytelling, every single one of them, and any other game you care to name, pales in comparison to a well-written book.
We shall all bow before the undisputed opinion of Captain Ignorance

Judging a story by it's medium and not by its content is a true mark of brilliance sir.
Roger Ebert would be proud of you.
Captain Ignorance, eh? Never heard that one before. Gold star for you.

Anyway, I'm not trying to say books or movies are inherently superior. They're not. Or at least they shouldn't be.

However, as I said to someone else:
"My point is that games are not as good at telling stories in a game-like manner as movies are at telling stories in a movie-like manner. Err... that was a really awkward sentence. But I think you see what I am trying to say.

The problem stems, ironically enough, from the nature of gameplay. All games end up having to pause the story to let the player shoot some people in the face (western games) or line up opposite some people and politely take turns smacking each other (eastern games).

Once they can make games that tell a good story, one with characters and plot twists and all that, entirely through gameplay then we will really be getting somewhere.

Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy game stories. All those games I listed in my first post? I loved every single one of them. But when I compare their stories to, say, the Discworld novels or Tolstoy's War and Peace... well, they come up lacking."


So yeah, make of that what you will. I really cannot be arsed having a debate with someone whose argument consists of schoolyard insults.
 

Mikeyfell

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Zhukov said:
Captain Ignorance, eh? Never heard that one before. Gold star for you.
Thanks I was proud of that one my self

Anyway, I'm not trying to say books or movies are inherently superior. They're not. Or at least they shouldn't be.

However, as I said to someone else:
"My point is that games are not as good at telling stories in a game-like manner as movies are at telling stories in a movie-like manner. Err... that was a really awkward sentence. But I think you see what I am trying to say.

The problem stems, ironically enough, from the nature of gameplay. All games end up having to pause the story to let the player shoot some people in the face (western games) or line up opposite some people and politely take turns smacking each other (eastern games).

Once they can make games that tell a good story, one with characters and plot twists and all that, entirely through gameplay then we will really be getting somewhere. Portal?

Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy game stories. All those games I listed in my first post? I loved every single one of them. But when I compare their stories to, say, the Discworld novels or Tolstoy's War and Peace... well, they come up lacking."
So I take it you exclusively like movies that are uninterrupted streams of exposition. like The Social Network or Reservoir Dogs? Does it bother you when ever a movie's story gets put on hold so a fight scene or a car chase can happen. Like in The Transporter or Crank? What about when the action is completely relevant to the story like 300?

Why is it different in a game. If the guys you shoot in the face need to get shot in the face, does it take you out of the experience so much when you do it instead of watching it?

Anyway you're talking more about atmosphere and pacing than story, which is more reasonable than I gave your initial post credit for. It's just that I've been arguing over the definitions "plot" "story" "writing" and "atmosphere" all damn day.

Saying "All games have bad blah blah blah" is just an ignorant statement which is why you got promoted to Captain

So yeah, make of that what you will. I really cannot be arsed having a debate with someone whose argument consists of schoolyard insults.
Hey. Two schoolyard insults book-ending a valid point, thank you very much.
 

thefabulousvaati

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To be honest, I spend so much time level grinding whenever I play JRPGs that by the time I'm facing off against the final boss, I've completely forgotten most of the storyline leading up to it.
 

Enosh_

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funguy2121 said:
I don't think he's as simplistic as that.
well I do

Vault101 said:
Basically he might as well have been saying that "console gaming is dying" because I doubt consoles as we know them will be around for at least another generation after this one, no technology will change, principle of convergence and all that

I juat feel the way he was presenting his argument was just to get a reaction, we all know technology is changeing duh

anyway I also dont like the argument "if you disagree with me your only proving me right"

anywaythats just me
but he didn't say that, he even specificly showed that consoles will still be an important part of gaming and for some reasons PC gaming will be killed by easy accesible portable thingys like ipads, it's his own bias that cosoles (aka nintendo) will be fine while the new convinient thing will kill the PC and ONLY the PC

that's why the video was bullshit, I would agree with the PCs and consoles will be replaced by something that is portable, easy to use and still provides the same gaming expiriance as a console or PC, but that like said, wasn't his point