What can change the nature of Role-Playing Games?

[Namewithheld]

Bioware might get the impression that DAO is the perfect formula, when it's just the best wrpg from a disappointing year.

I know everyone is going to bite me for saying this, but...Dragon Age is a better game than Planescape: Torment.

Okay, okay, wait! Before you throw your shoes, hear me out!

Dragon Age's story, while familiar, is very well written and put together. Its game play is STELLAR.

Torment's story is well written and put together as well as shockingly deep and profound. Its game play is shit. Everything around the dialog in Torment was either average or just plain bad.

So, if we could get Torment to be remade with better graphics, presentation, and gameplay, it would be so amazing, it would rip a hole in the space/awesome continuum and cause the entire universe to EXPLODE.

Which is why I want someone to remake it. Though, actually, remake is the wrong word...a more accurate one would be to TRANSCRIBE it. Like transferring a movie from VHS to DVD. Take nothing, only add things. Things like combat that is not made of fail, and fully realized voice acting.

I can dream, can't I?

 

[sighmoan]

What I definitely DON'T want is FPS/RPG hybrid! I suck at FP perspective and it bears no relevance to the genre, there is no reason for it, so less crazy talk, thanks! ;-)
Keep first person simply for shooters!

If you don't like it don't play it, and definitely do not demand there be lesser to none of these hybrids because now you're going against what I and many others would be looking forward to...0o

My point kind of was that if you don't like don't play it :-(
I avoid FPS/RPGs I don't ***** about it and don't ask that it be changed I stick to the games I enjoy, my comment was about the bigger picture that some people think that everything about RPGs suck in their current formats. Which they don't, I even state there are games for us all and I just don't play the games I don't like. Imagine if all games designers decided that based on forum opinions ALL RPGs need to be FP to be immersive, it simply isn't true. The OP wants to know what would change the nature of the RPG, well why does it's nature require change there are RPGs for everyone, my argument (if you look beyond a knee jerk reaction) is that I don't want there to be one formula that all must abide by and that many RPG'ers like the way RPGs are now and that's why they play!
EDIT - and by the way I am not the chairmen of a games company you know! I have no actual power in the games industry ''because now you're going against what I and many others would be looking forward to...0o'', I just passed an opinion, that is all! PMSL!

We could just say that "RPGs are RPGs and if you want something else go play something else", lock the thread and establish that everything past ''Rogue'' is just plain silly. That would hardly qualify as a particularly rewarding discussion. Granted that the current iteration of role-playing games is a good one and in no need for particular change, is it impossible to discuss what kind of change would still be interesting to see? The viewpoint that "nothing needs to change" isn't particularly interesting past the first few posts of such a discussion.

 

[Jenova65]

What I definitely DON'T want is FPS/RPG hybrid! I suck at FP perspective and it bears no relevance to the genre, there is no reason for it, so less crazy talk, thanks! ;-)
Keep first person simply for shooters!

If you don't like it don't play it, and definitely do not demand there be lesser to none of these hybrids because now you're going against what I and many others would be looking forward to...0o

My point kind of was that if you don't like don't play it :-(
I avoid FPS/RPGs I don't ***** about it and don't ask that it be changed I stick to the games I enjoy, my comment was about the bigger picture that some people think that everything about RPGs suck in their current formats. Which they don't, I even state there are games for us all and I just don't play the games I don't like. Imagine if all games designers decided that based on forum opinions ALL RPGs need to be FP to be immersive, it simply isn't true. The OP wants to know what would change the nature of the RPG, well why does it's nature require change there are RPGs for everyone, my argument (if you look beyond a knee jerk reaction) is that I don't want there to be one formula that all must abide by and that many RPG'ers like the way RPGs are now and that's why they play!
EDIT - and by the way I am not the chairmen of a games company you know! I have no actual power in the games industry ''because now you're going against what I and many others would be looking forward to...0o'', I just passed an opinion, that is all! PMSL!

We could just say that "RPGs are RPGs and if you want something else go play something else", lock the thread and establish that everything past ''Rogue'' is just plain silly. That would hardly qualify as a particularly rewarding discussion. Granted that the current iteration of role-playing games is a good one and in no need for particular change, is it impossible to discuss what kind of change would still be interesting to see? The viewpoint that "nothing needs to change" isn't particularly interesting past the first few posts of such a discussion.

Blimey, I didn't say that *sighs* I personally don't think the 'nature', of RPGs needs to be changed, I am however fine with the evolution of the genre but the OP did not ask about evolution, OK?!
EDIT - And my opinion is just that, my opinion to which I am entitled (as are you) and I am entitled to explain that view when questioned. We aren't all going to agree, but that doesn't mean I have to stop posting, does it, just because I answer a question related to my original reply, which btw I put a bloody winky face on to give the impression my comment was intended to be lighthearted! So can we just leave it there.........?

 

[Jenova65]

What I definitely DON'T want is FPS/RPG hybrid! I suck at FP perspective and it bears no relevance to the genre, there is no reason for it, so less crazy talk, thanks! ;-)
Keep first person simply for shooters!

If you don't like it don't play it, and definitely do not demand there be lesser to none of these hybrids because now you're going against what I and many others would be looking forward to...0o

My point kind of was that if you don't like don't play it :-(
I avoid FPS/RPGs I don't ***** about it and don't ask that it be changed I stick to the games I enjoy, my comment was about the bigger picture that some people think that everything about RPGs suck in their current formats. Which they don't, I even state there are games for us all and I just don't play the games I don't like. Imagine if all games designers decided that based on forum opinions ALL RPGs need to be FP to be immersive, it simply isn't true. The OP wants to know what would change the nature of the RPG, well why does it's nature require change there are RPGs for everyone, my argument (if you look beyond a knee jerk reaction) is that I don't want there to be one formula that all must abide by and that many RPG'ers like the way RPGs are now and that's why they play!
EDIT - and by the way I am not the chairmen of a games company you know! I have no actual power in the games industry ''because now you're going against what I and many others would be looking forward to...0o'', I just passed an opinion, that is all! PMSL!

Oh ok then..lol

Glad we understand each other now

 

[sighmoan]

What I definitely DON'T want is FPS/RPG hybrid! I suck at FP perspective and it bears no relevance to the genre, there is no reason for it, so less crazy talk, thanks! ;-)
Keep first person simply for shooters!

If you don't like it don't play it, and definitely do not demand there be lesser to none of these hybrids because now you're going against what I and many others would be looking forward to...0o

My point kind of was that if you don't like don't play it :-(
I avoid FPS/RPGs I don't ***** about it and don't ask that it be changed I stick to the games I enjoy, my comment was about the bigger picture that some people think that everything about RPGs suck in their current formats. Which they don't, I even state there are games for us all and I just don't play the games I don't like. Imagine if all games designers decided that based on forum opinions ALL RPGs need to be FP to be immersive, it simply isn't true. The OP wants to know what would change the nature of the RPG, well why does it's nature require change there are RPGs for everyone, my argument (if you look beyond a knee jerk reaction) is that I don't want there to be one formula that all must abide by and that many RPG'ers like the way RPGs are now and that's why they play!
EDIT - and by the way I am not the chairmen of a games company you know! I have no actual power in the games industry ''because now you're going against what I and many others would be looking forward to...0o'', I just passed an opinion, that is all! PMSL!

We could just say that "RPGs are RPGs and if you want something else go play something else", lock the thread and establish that everything past ''Rogue'' is just plain silly. That would hardly qualify as a particularly rewarding discussion. Granted that the current iteration of role-playing games is a good one and in no need for particular change, is it impossible to discuss what kind of change would still be interesting to see? The viewpoint that "nothing needs to change" isn't particularly interesting past the first few posts of such a discussion.

Blimey, I didn't say that *sighs* I personally don't think the 'nature', of RPGs needs to be changed, I am fine with evolution, OK?!

Sure. You can think that all you want. It's just that it is completely irrelevant in the given discussion.

 

[Jenova65]

What I definitely DON'T want is FPS/RPG hybrid! I suck at FP perspective and it bears no relevance to the genre, there is no reason for it, so less crazy talk, thanks! ;-)
Keep first person simply for shooters!

If you don't like it don't play it, and definitely do not demand there be lesser to none of these hybrids because now you're going against what I and many others would be looking forward to...0o

My point kind of was that if you don't like don't play it :-(
I avoid FPS/RPGs I don't ***** about it and don't ask that it be changed I stick to the games I enjoy, my comment was about the bigger picture that some people think that everything about RPGs suck in their current formats. Which they don't, I even state there are games for us all and I just don't play the games I don't like. Imagine if all games designers decided that based on forum opinions ALL RPGs need to be FP to be immersive, it simply isn't true. The OP wants to know what would change the nature of the RPG, well why does it's nature require change there are RPGs for everyone, my argument (if you look beyond a knee jerk reaction) is that I don't want there to be one formula that all must abide by and that many RPG'ers like the way RPGs are now and that's why they play!
EDIT - and by the way I am not the chairmen of a games company you know! I have no actual power in the games industry ''because now you're going against what I and many others would be looking forward to...0o'', I just passed an opinion, that is all! PMSL!

We could just say that "RPGs are RPGs and if you want something else go play something else", lock the thread and establish that everything past ''Rogue'' is just plain silly. That would hardly qualify as a particularly rewarding discussion. Granted that the current iteration of role-playing games is a good one and in no need for particular change, is it impossible to discuss what kind of change would still be interesting to see? The viewpoint that "nothing needs to change" isn't particularly interesting past the first few posts of such a discussion.

Blimey, I didn't say that *sighs* I personally don't think the 'nature', of RPGs needs to be changed, I am fine with evolution, OK?!

Sure. You can think that all you want. It's just that it is completely irrelevant in the given discussion.

In your opinion!
X-posted my edit, please read, thanks

 

[More Fun To Compute]

I mean story-driven as in full focus on character development and intricate storyline, not just some explanation for why we have to kill things. Legacy of Kain, for instance, was a perfect story-driven game. Neverwinter Nights 2, on the other hand, was not.

OK, so you just want everything to be perfect like Legacy of Kain, fair enough. So you would rather have more games like Too Human than Wizardry 8?

Random, turn based fighting ala Final fantasy X-2. Yes X-2. The battle system in that was random, turn based fighting but it was a lot more fluid.

Anyway, that's my answer.

Nice. I would like them to do more with the Last Remnant engine though. Maybe they could recreate Planescape: Torment with that engine? I would love to see Nameless One with a horde of followers.

 

[Woodsey]

Isn't this an oxymoron?

Asking where we'd like them to advance to by giving examples that have already been done?

 

[Namewithheld]

but the Nameless One's quest was always a deeply personal one. Him leading armies or large bands of followers just strikes me as...well...not right. He is connected to every one of his companions in a deep, and meaningful way that becomes apparent as the game continues. Having those companions only be 9 amongst a large band just dilutes the effect.

 

[Earthmonger]

- Judging by your title, I'd like an RPG at least as dialogue-heavy as Planescape: Torment. Important characters should be voiced as well as texted, but unnecessary for every single NPC in the entire game.

- I like the first/third person toggle. I'm not a fan of isometric when it can be avoided, because it just doesn't feel like 3D. I'll play isometrics anyway though.

- Quit calling crap like Deus Ex an RPG. There wasn't nearly enough personalization in that game to warrant such an honor. I'd also like to see less "RPGs" that set you in the predefined role of a specific character. Next thing you know, Quake will be called an RPG just because you can switch weapons and choose whether or not to pick up those random armor shards.

- No more linearity! No more goddamn level scaling! No more 'gold' drops from beetles and werewolves. Seriously.

- Less medieval fantasy, more steampunk/sci-fi. And gods, please less franchise-based RPGs like Star Wars/Star Trek/Stargate. Create fresh worlds instead of relying completely on the works of others.

- While on the subject of sci-fi, I'd like less games based solely the shooting mechanic. If I wanna kill someone with a can of beef stew, I want that option.

 

[veloper]

Bioware might get the impression that DAO is the perfect formula, when it's just the best wrpg from a disappointing year.

I know everyone is going to bite me for saying this, but...Dragon Age is a better game than Planescape: Torment.

Okay, okay, wait! Before you throw your shoes, hear me out!

Dragon Age's story, while familiar, is very well written and put together. Its game play is STELLAR.

Torment's story is well written and put together as well as shockingly deep and profound. Its game play is shit. Everything around the dialog in Torment was either average or just plain bad.

So, if we could get Torment to be remade with better graphics, presentation, and gameplay, it would be so amazing, it would rip a hole in the space/awesome continuum and cause the entire universe to EXPLODE.

Which is why I want someone to remake it. Though, actually, remake is the wrong word...a more accurate one would be to TRANSCRIBE it. Like transferring a movie from VHS to DVD. Take nothing, only add things. Things like combat that is not made of fail, and fully realized voice acting.

I can dream, can't I?

Don't worry, you won't even a get bark.
I think every gamer would agree than PS:T had lousy combat. DA:O has better combat.

The thing is, fans forgive PS:T for it's weak combat, because of the things it did so brilliantly. Shitty combat is something wrpg fans have learned to live with because this is what we get all the time.
Take fallout 1 & 2 for example: a most primitive, featureless turn-based combat system, with an atrociously bad AI, little balance and terrible positioning. Still we love those games for what they did right (dialogue, setting, c&c, challenge).

The only non-indie RPG that had good tactical combat was TOEE. Too bad it is flawed in other areas. I guess tactical combat is what the strategy genre is for. RPG fans have learned to accept the abuse.

 

[Jenova65]

Ever play Thief?

First Person = immersion.

No, I haven't. Why haven't I? Cos as I said ''I suck at FP perspective'' Plus not everyone needs FP perspective to get immersed, I have no problems getting immersed in RPGs or I wouldn't spend hundreds of hours playing them.
If you think a game has too much walking and too much talking then RPG is maybe not the best genre for you to be playing :-S

FP give you motion sickness or something? Thief isn't an action game it's a sneaking around, hiding in shadows, and clubbing people over the head game. So it's very fun, if a little old.

Yeah I'm not sure RPGs are my favourite genre to be honest, but I've enjoyed them in the past. As I say Arx Fatalis was okay. The problem I have with Morrowind (Elder Scrolls III) is that #1 my character walks WAY TOO SLOW. I have him running all the time. And #2 It's not the talking that bugs me, its the amount of it. See in Morrowind you talk to a guy, and at first guy you get like 6 default questions. Then you learn some stuff, and next thing you know everyone you talk to has like 12-20 possible questions. And then a lot of people all give this very cut and paste dialogue. People say the exact same thing about a current event. When I go to different people and they say the exact same 5 pages or so of dialogue I'm wondering why they're different people in the first place. I would RATHER than each person had less to say, but more unique things to say. So maybe one guy knows one thing, and one guys knows another, rather than both of them knowing the same thing.

In a nutshell,
If I'm playing an RPG I want to interact with characters. Not get bombarded by some paragraph of text. Many of the characters in Morrowind are more information dispensing machines rather than actual people. I don't know if Oblivion and their other games are the same way. (And yeah I know Morrowind is damn old but I got it in some auction for some old PC games so I'm giving it a go).

Lol, no, not motion sickness, I just don't like that I can't see around me, FP is not immersive for me, cos IRL I have a little something called peripheral vision (FP view is at the end of the day little better than tunnel vision) I don't have turn my whole self around to see what is not right in front of me, does that make sense?
I think many people get swamped when there is information overload in some RPGs, but it doesn't bother me I like (Dragon Age perfect example) when there is info that makes the world feel like it has a history and the people in it have grudges that have reason and depth, I realise though that it isn't for everyone.

 

[Namewithheld]

Really, though, we're all running around the real issue here...

The one thing and one thing only that will make RPG's truly great is if the people making them HIRE GOOD FUCKING AUTHORS!

 

[Axolotl]

Really, though, we're all running around the real issue here...

The one thing and one thing only that will make RPG's truly great is if the people making them HIRE GOOD FUCKING AUTHORS!

What good authors? Hiring great writers from novels and films has been shown not to work in games because it's very different writeing for an interactive medium. They've pretty much got the best authors avalible already working in the industry because the ones working in the industry are the only ones with any experience with the medium.

- Judging by your title, I'd like an RPG at least as dialogue-heavy as Planescape: Torment. Important characters should be voiced as well as texted, but unnecessary for every single NPC in the entire game.

I'll agree with this, although the title was just a reference (I haven't actually played PS:T yet).

- Quit calling crap like Deus Ex an RPG. There wasn't nearly enough personalization in that game to warrant such an honor. I'd also like to see less "RPGs" that set you in the predefined role of a specific character. Next thing you know, Quake will be called an RPG just because you can switch weapons and choose whether or not to pick up those random armor shards.

Why is not an RPG? The main reason it's praised so much is for giving the player near-total freedom of approach and it still has traditional "RPG elements".

- No more linearity! No more goddamn level scaling! No more 'gold' drops from beetles and werewolves. Seriously.

Yes, this is what would be good to see.

- Less medieval fantasy, more steampunk/sci-fi. And gods, please less franchise-based RPGs like Star Wars/Star Trek/Stargate. Create fresh worlds instead of relying completely on the works of others.

I certainly agree with this sentiment. Hell I'd settle for something like Eberron or Dark Sun being done properly. Although I thnk my ideal game setting would be Planescape done properly.

 

[Namewithheld]

...what good authors? What good authors!?

There are countless authors. Many of them would be good at doing a video game. Writing a book and writing a video game are different...but many authors who write good books ALSO write great screenplays. If someone can write snappy dialog, they can write it for a book and for a game. If someone can make a plotline that makes sense and is deep and thrilling for a book, they can make one for a video game.

Writing is writing is writing...all games do is add interactivity. Yes, I know that's kind of like saying "Yeah, well, all nuclear bombs do is add exponentially more energy to the equation", but still.

Writing for a book and writing for a game are not incompatible. The only problem is that the only example of a big name author writing for a game that I can think of off the top of my head, it was OSC writing Advent Rising, which was buggy as hell and ended on a cliffhanger...BUT it had a good plot and good dialog.

And if we're seeing writing that is from "the best' the industry has to offer, then obviously their BEST is NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

 

[Axeli]

But Bioware (as a perfect example) give you all that, my ONLY issue with Bioware is they are very fond of either level capping or making it so that there might as well be a level cap, they taunt you with skills you will never get.
I understand what you are saying, but when RPGs moved to the consoles from the notepad, gaining experience and skills and the whole levelling up concept has been a staple for the average Roleplayer!

Pfft. Bioware games don't have role-playing, they have choice-playing.

Meh, semantics!

No they aren't.

It was an jab at those who complain that all RPGs should be like that, because the genre is called "role playing game". Besides wanting to kill variety it's a stupid idea because the games these people hold as shining examples don't actually even have any role playing.

Also, there's a real difference between choice and role playing. The former is a severly limited poor man's version of the latter. These games have shortcomings and failing to achieve the role playing element they try to rely on is one of them.

 

[Axolotl]

...what good authors? What good authors!?

There are countless authors. Many of them would be good at doing a video game. Writing a book and writing a video game are different...but many authors who write good books ALSO write great screenplays. If someone can write snappy dialog, they can write it for a book and for a game. If someone can make a plotline that makes sense and is deep and thrilling for a book, they can make one for a video game.

It souns goo in theory but in the past when this has been tested it doesn't end well.

Writing is writing is writing...all games do is add interactivity. Yes, I know that's kind of like saying "Yeah, well, all nuclear bombs do is add exponentially more energy to the equation", but still.

But interactivity changes everything, especially within RPGs where the playe defines the protaganist.

And if we're seeing writing that is from "the best' the industry has to offer, then obviously their BEST is NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

Really? I mean sure currently we have hacks like Bioware/Bethesda but if you look at Troika and Black Isle they're writeing was pretty good, more recently look at Bioshock, that game gets across it's plot and themes better than any game I've seen and btter than quite a few films and books, it's able to do this mainly becaus it embraces interactivity.