What is being homophobic?

[Something Amyss]

we should allways ask why, thats a fundamental part of being human in my opinion. Incest has its social stigma as to the consequences, it could lead to offspring with disabilities due to the lack of two different sets of chromosomes. Therfor it has an actual reason.

A woman in her forties has a greater chance of passing on birth defects than first cousins. I believe it's on par with siblings. We don't speak out against old couples, despite the "consequences." So please, don't tell me it's for an actual reason, because it's a baad one.

 

[Jayemsal]

The definition of homophobia is "holding prejudice against homosexuals", but I hold no prejudice against a guy I meet if he tells me he's gay. Whatever, doesn't bother me, I'd still treat him the same as I treat anyone else. BUT if I saw the same guy engaging in something romantic...even something as simple as holding hands in a "we are obviously lovers" fashion with another guy...I feel the need to look away, something simply clicks in my mind and yells "OH GOD WHY DID I HAVE TO SEE THAT".

I can imagine three possible explanations:
1. You are homophobic, and despite your claim not to be prejudiced against gays, you're only okay with them as long as they're gay in theory. In other words, as long as they conceal a basic part of their identity (the drive to feel and express affection), you're cool. That's kinda homophobic. or...
2. You're not really homophobic, but you're so insecure about your own sexuality that it manifests as homophobic fear of encountering male homosexuality. Lots of male teens growing up in societies that denigrate male homosexuality grow up with a fear of encountering homosexuality, as though if you are exposed to too much gay you might become gay yourself. Generally this is something that should be outgrown as the male teens become confident in their own sexuality. But then unfortunately as I hope we all know, a lot of people never become comfortable in their own sexuality.
3. As a straight privileged male, you have never had to deal with the fact that not everyone's sexuality is like yours. While exposure to homosexual women[footnote]Well, usually a male-fantasy sort of bisexual woman[/footnote] has been common in western media for over two decades[footnote]The episode where two female characters kiss has been pretty common in 90s TV[/footnote], male homosexuality doesn't get nearly as much attention. So, it's new for you and frightening, possibly because of #1 and/or #2.

But I still find the sight of lesbians damn, damn sexy.

Forgive me if I'm speaking out of turn here, but I suspect you only find fake lesbians sexy. Women who are playing lesbian characters specifically designed to appeal to straight male audiences. I used to date a lesbian[footnote]Don't ask...[/footnote], and well, my experience is not many real lesbians look or act like porn lesbians, just like not many real women look like porn women. That's not to say that all lesbians are "butch" (though I know a few who are), just that people in general who are genuinely interested in their own pleasure are much less interesting to watch than people who put on a show. Unless of course people enjoying their own pleasure is your thing, but then I wouldn't have thought in that case the fact that they're lesbian women would matter much to you.

when I GUARANTEE you that a sizable chunk of the world's population could be classified as "homophobic" when it comes to homosexuals of their own gender, and not bothered at all by the idea of the OPPOSITE sex engaging in homosexual acts.

You GUARANTEE it, eh? I wonder just how thorough your research has been.

Case in point, I bet a lot of women find the idea of two guys getting it on quite sexy/arousing.

I used to frequent a restaurant in Japan with two male friends, one of whom was gay. We frequently had a waitress who spoke English well, and routinely flirted with the gay guy in our group, seemingly unaware of his orientation. Or maybe not, because one day she confided in us that she wanted to go to San Francisco to see gay people because she thought they would be "cute". Like toy dogs.

Now, I'm not saying that to disprove your claim, because we all know that the plural of anecdote is not data. What I'm saying is it sounds very much like you're projecting your sexuality- you have so little experience with sexuality that differs from the norms you're personally used to that you imagine everyone is after the exact same sensations in the exact same form that you are. And... they aren't. People like different things, and they like them in different ways for different reasons.

They could be called homophobic because they dislike the idea of lesbians...okay, dislike is a strong word, but they will still make them uneasy or uncomfortable. But it's only natural, is it not??

In many societies, including some of the largest/most powerful/longest lived societies in history, homosexuality has not been a reviled thing. In fact, in many societies homosexuality didn't exist. If a man one night fancies himself some special time with another man instead of a woman, that didn't necessarily mean anything to him or to anyone who happened to witness it. For example, in ancient Rome it was perfectly acceptable for a man to have sex with other men[footnote]Provided he wasn't the one being penetrated. Penetrating others, be they women, men, whatever was seen as manly, while being sexually submissive was seen as shameful.[/footnote]. It wasn't a big deal. Even today in Japan, it's quite common to find straight men in straight relationships who enjoy a little homosexuality on the side[footnote]I hear even in our own culture this isn't unheard of.[/footnote]. Basically there is a cultural impetus to have children, so as long as you eventually get married and have kids, what you do otherwise isn't a big deal. In Japan homosexual behavior just doesn't get much criticism, but the notion that a person might engage in homosexuality as a lifestyle is still quite taboo. It's only in cultures where any homosexual contact has been scandalized that the merest act of male affection is taboo. In other words, it's not natural to be disgusted by any kind of homosexuality. It's a side effect of our culture and upbringing. It's unnatural.

But more to the point, it doesn't matter if it's unnatural or not. 99%[footnote]Not intended to be factual.[/footnote] of what people in western society do is unnatural. Hell, written language itself is unnatural, let alone sitting at a chair in a heated room using a computer to transmit written language over a network in order to discuss the naturality of homosexuality. The fact is, gay dudes exist. And gay dudes have the right to be affectionate with each other. And sometimes in your life you're going to see it. So for your own peace of mind, you need to get over it.

Wow, This person pretty much ninja'd every point I could have made.

Kudos to you.

 

[Jenvas1306]

we should allways ask why, thats a fundamental part of being human in my opinion. Incest has its social stigma as to the consequences, it could lead to offspring with disabilities due to the lack of two different sets of chromosomes. Therfor it has an actual reason.

A woman in her forties has a greater chance of passing on birth defects than first cousins. I believe it's on par with siblings. We don't speak out against old couples, despite the "consequences." So please, don't tell me it's for an actual reason, because it's a baad one.

Most people dont think of my named reason directly, its more like an imprinted behavior by society and those things can be old, old enough maybe to be from a time where it would be very rare for a woman in her fourties to have another child. Just another point for going after what society told you without thinking further...
Thats maybe an explanation, but you certainly told me something I didnt think of.

 

[101flyboy]

Kissing or sex are intimate acts that go hand in hand with attraction. I cannot feel indifferent towards it. It's either great or it's a turn off. The idea of kissing a man is a turn off i.e. disgust. I don't see why it's an issue that things you do may disgust other people. Your life is yours and theirs is theirs.

Well, it's not really an issue whatsoever until it's made one. Unfortunately, that happens often. Very often. And we have a handful of posters in this thread who have flat out said they look away in disgust or give a negative look towards two men kissing. When that happens then it does become our business because that's more or less a visual condemnation.

You seem to take kissing a lot more serious than most. A lot of kissing you see is little more than playfulness or a quick way of showing your partner you love them. That's why I don't understand how one can make the IMMEDIATE jump to sex. That's also why I continue throwing the term projective disgust out there, because that is what this mentality is representative of. You're projecting disgust onto something based on your own unresolved internalized insecurity and angst.

Ultimately, we all should want the best for society and one another, and having some here almost proudly say how disgusting two guys kissing is, is not the best for society, and it's simply not a nice thing. It's not a respectable way of thinking. And it's harmful to that individual with such a mentality because you're going to be surrounded by openly non-straight individuals more and more as our culture is growing more accepting. So why hold such biases and fears instead of just moving beyond such silly conceptions?

 

[101flyboy]

This is a very strange dilemma, huh? Doubly for me, being...I've been calling myself pansexual for a while now, but it may not be that. A bisexual who is attracted to any and all genders. Including transgender, and both. And I still find seeing two guys kissing a little uncomfortable.

Might just be because I'm not used to seeing it, where I see straight people kissing all the time.

A lot of gay/bi/pan/etc. guys are uncomfortable around other gay/ban/pi guys. I've seen it happen a fair bit. It's both that people aren't used to it and the fact male homosexuality specifically has been condemned HARSHLY for decades. Things were improving on this regard, and then hit the AIDS crisis. People connect "gay" to anal sex, oral sex, and just sex in general. People connect gay to contamination, it's not pure. It's a moral judgment as much if not more than a physical one. The same with lesbians. Same-sex love is still not yet truly embraced, but that's improving. Until people separate loving affection and just love in general to sex when it comes to same-sex couples then we're going to continue to see people uncomfortable with it. Until the "it's immoral, it's dirty" attitude is removed from our society more than it is today.

The only way that changes is exposure and understanding. Understanding and realizing that this couple may be two guys or two girls but their love has just as much meaning, is just as powerful, and just as beautiful.

 

[101flyboy]

It's something you should work on, and yeah, it's homophobia. It's even soft bigotry, but it isn't hateful and you're working on it.

Not all of us are exposed to certain people early on in life. I wouldn't feel GUILTY about it, but yes, it is something you should work on fixing. As a straight man who has found gay romance to be beautiful (just not 'hawt') it's not a natural reaction so much as an indoctrination. And that's, again, not to be condescending. We've all had instances of at least soft bigotry.

I'd say perceiving a balanced and gentle form of love as 'disgusting' is a bad thing though. It all depends on your perceptions of love, sex and what aspects of society have influence you. I don't fantasize about being in the position of people I see kissing very often, thus I don't make THAT direct of an association. I feel happy for my friend when he was considering a relationship with a VERY nice guy, for example. I relate to the emotions, and think less about the sexual details. Sexual preference comes down to specifics of what you want done to your body. For instance: I shudder at the thought of oral sex of any kind. I just do. It's not something I want to happen to me, and it's not something I want to do to someone else. But kissing, hugging, or just telling someone you love them is something more universal and muuuch less specific.

In many cases, it comes down to how open your perception of love is. A big key to my perception of love comes from one very important fact: if I was gay or bi, no one close to me would think of me poorly. I'd feel comfortable in that way.

Again, I don't wish to hate on anyone for the perceptions in this thread, that's not the goal. But it is worth it to try and put yourself in their position. Gay people don't get beaten to death or harassed for doing any kind of lofty crime, they become victims for walking down the street holding hands or adopting a child. So when someone is disgusted by them doing things any straight couple can do without question, it reminds them of how the world still perceives them. They might not mentally jump to thoughts of hate crime, but I've asked. It's always a painful reminder for them when they get a dirty look for no reason.

Call it political correctness, but sometimes it's easier to just call it being considerate.

Thank you. Straight to the heart, beautiful post.

 

[101flyboy]

I think that a lot of guys react negatively to homosexuality because they are culturally trained to do so.
Also, I often wonder if it has anything to do with the different between who does the penetration and who gets penetrated.
I cant help but wonder if two men with one another grossed people out because something that usually does not get penetrated is getting penetrated.
Like the way you see a person's leg twisted in the wrong way, you instantly feel freaked out because that is not the way a leg should look.

You're right, misogyny is a huge factor with homophobia in general. Because a man is supposed to be a man, and that means he's supposed to be with a woman. A man reducing himself to be with a woman is considered a major no-no, still. That's one thing that still hasn't changed much. It's *odd* for a guy to do what he does with a woman to a man. It's odd for a man to not desire to be stereotypically masculine. Of course, the thing is that the "thing" these guys are doing with other guys is the same exact things that straight men do with women. It's just that instead of imagining an attractive woman and an attractive man, they're imagining two men with no female involvement. And due to internalized homophobia that's something they can't handle.

I've found the guys more comfortable with homosexuality are guys who are less traditionally macho, less "guys guy" and less hung up on gender norms, and social norms in general. So they have more freedom with which to work with mentally.

 

[101flyboy]

I do not see it as "wrong". That was part of my point to begin with.

I know. Hence I said I don't care because I don't agree with you.

Traditional marriage, according to my bros at the NPD, is the marriage between a man and a woman.

Nope. If we want to look historically, marriage has not been about one man and one woman coming together out of love to marry. People who have that mentality are obviously wrong and know little of history.

I find the sentiment absolutely ridiculous on numerous levels. For starters, I don't really care for marriage anyway, so protecting its supposed sancity isn't an interest of mine. Second, I do not think marriage is something the state or church should have any hand in. Third, I have no problem with two men or two woman getting married.

Marriage as just a privatized contract will lead to problems. The argument seems well but it isn't. There will be discrimination on several levels by making marriage a privatized contract.

No, but it does earn gay men and women the freedom to express their love openly (to a point). I think that's worth something.

Not really. "To a point" means same-sex couples do not have full freedom to be themselves. Because of the biases *other* people have. That's not acceptable.

I made this extremely obvious. But you missed it, because you're so desperately trying to paint me as a homophobic ****. What I actually post in this thread is irrelevant to you, because you see what you want to see.

I'm not desperate to do anything, I took you by your word. I took what you said at face value. I could have interpreted it to look for the deeper meaning in what you were saying but I don't know you enough to do so.

 

[Dr. Doomsduck]

snipsnipsnip

You, sir, are kicking ass and taking names in this thread. It takes a lot of patience and goodwill to discuss these points as elaborate as you do. Kudos for that.

 

[101flyboy]

So more or less, because I don't want to be seen as some "You MUST be 110% pro-gay at all times!" individual, here's the way I see it and I think several others as well:

Best case scenario=You don't care who kisses who. Gender combination is irrelevant. You see the beauty in all forms of love.

Next best scenario=You're indifferent to forms of kissing that aren't in line with your orientation.

Acceptable scenario=It makes me uncomfortable/uneasy to see two people of the same-sex kissing but I admit it's my problem to work on and I don't make it an issue for them. Making at least some attempt to admit they have a bit of a dilemma to work on rather than make excuses.

Not great scenario=Same-sex kissing makes me uncomfortable and disgusted to the point I avoid associating with same-sex couples. I won't give them open hate for it but I also cannot be around it for extended periods/at all or I will turn my head and feel repulsed.

Worst case scenario=Same-sex kissing/homosexuality is disgusting. I can tolerate people are gay but I don't embrace it. Making excuses for this mentality rather than asking themselves why they feel this way. Blaming same-sex kissing/homosexuality on their reasons why they have negative bias.


Being uncomfortable is totally fine as long as you cop to the fact you have such discomfort, don't make it an issue for same-sex couples, and as long as you as an individual realize it's your problem that you're dealing with, and making an attempt to solve said problem. Which will eventually be solved because you're open-minded and experience and exposure will take away your fear, your insecurity, you're hesitancy. The first three scenarios are fine. Life isn't an utopia and we all have our biases but as long as we try to better ourselves, for ourselves AND for the people around us, then you can't be blamed for that at all. It takes a strong person to admit their weaknesses.

 

[101flyboy]

snipsnipsnip

You, sir, are kicking ass and taking names in this thread. It takes a lot of patience and goodwill to discuss these points as elaborate as you do. Kudos for that.

Thank you, I really appreciate your kind words

 

[itsthesheppy]

I think the phenomena of having nothing ethically wrong with homosexuality and yet being disgusted by it has to do with the 'mirror neurons' we all come equipped with. The same neurons that makes your skin crawl when you see a spider crawling up someone else's arm. It's not on your arm and yet you can almost feel it there, inching it way up...

When heterosexual men see two women kissing, their mirror neurons put them in the place of one of the two women; and since they are heterosexual and find women attractive, they are therefor having a heterosexual experience; imagining themselves kissing a girl. However, with the male couple, their mirror neurons are imagining themselves kissing a man, and since they are not homosexual, the idea is repellent for some.

That would explain why you consciously have no problem with homosexuals but a subconsciously repulsed by seeing them be romantic with each other. Your mind is inserting yourself into the mix and making you imagine that it's you. Fun when it's girls involved, not so fun with guys. You just need to learn to recognize that and control it so that it doesn't bother you. It's just down to personal discipline.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

I'm wondering out loud here, but is it still homophobia if you're turned off by the sight of homosexuality? It's not like you get to choose what arouses you and what doesn't.

 

[Vegosiux]

I'm wondering out loud here, but is it still homophobia if you're turned off by the sight of homosexuality? It's not like you get to choose what arouses you and what doesn't.

Ehm, no, that's not homophobia, neither is telling a same-sex couple to "get a room".

What I am more interested in is this odd phenomenon of manly men going all ballistic about gays yet still complaining their wife won't let them put it in the butt.

 

[generals3]

I'm wondering out loud here, but is it still homophobia if you're turned off by the sight of homosexuality? It's not like you get to choose what arouses you and what doesn't.

Ehm, no, that's not homophobia, neither is telling a same-sex couple to "get a room".

What I am more interested in is this odd phenomenon of manly men going all ballistic about gays yet still complaining their wife won't let them put it in the butt.

While i'm not into anal sex i'd still prefer to stick it in a woman's butt than a dude. (just like i'd rather have a woman's tongue in my mouth rather than a man's)

 

[Abomination]

I'm wondering out loud here, but is it still homophobia if you're turned off by the sight of homosexuality? It's not like you get to choose what arouses you and what doesn't.

Ehm, no, that's not homophobia, neither is telling a same-sex couple to "get a room".

What I am more interested in is this odd phenomenon of manly men going all ballistic about gays yet still complaining their wife won't let them put it in the butt.

I think it's been touched on multiple times, it's putting yourself in someone else's shoes. "That is something I would not want to do and thus I would prefer not to see it."

It's also probably because kissing is SUPPOSED to be beautiful and if you do not find the exact situation beautiful the mind reads it as "this does not compute". Like biting an apple that tastes like avocado when you don't like avocado - "I was expecting apple".

How about watching someone kiss an ugly girl, or a dog? I imagine the response is the same. "Do not want. Look away. Bleh."

 

[101flyboy]

There is a difference between "this does not compute" and "this is disgusting". Also kissing/hugging isn't really homosexuality. Homosexuality is sex. Kissing is a kiss. Hugging is hugging. Hand holding is hand holding. Same-sex hand holding, opposite sex kissing, it's the same thing with different gender combinations. We need to separate affection from sex. I'm not turned on or off by a man and woman kissing. It's a non-starter. Thinking it's disgusting is taking it to a different level.